TN: Teusner "The Lost Barrel" Shiraz 2005 (Barossa Valley)

[Waiters Friend]

The wine the barrels were "lost" from is Teusner's Albert shiraz. The story goes that they lost or forgot a couple of barrels when putting the 2005 Albert together, and when found, these were bottled and released as a separate wine.

Deep purple in colour, and opaque. Big (and unmistakably Barossa) shiraz nose, with blueberry conserve, mocha / milk chocolate, blackberries, black plums and oak all climbing out of the glass. The palate is also big and almost port-like with fruit sweetness and texture. There's no shortage of oak but it doesn't dominate the other amplified flavours present.

Very enjoyable if you like that "everything bigger than everything else" style (and I do, but not all the time), and it is a shame that was my last bottle. The wine still has plenty of life ahead of it, but may not improve as such, only change.

Cheers
Allan

[WineRick]

Would have thought that with LIP regulations, this incident would never have been able to happen. From the weighbridge to the bottling line, every litre has to be accounted for!

[Waiters Friend]

Would have thought that with LIP regulations, this incident would never have been able to happen. From the weighbridge to the bottling line, every litre has to be accounted for!

Excuse my ignorance, Rick. What are LIP regulations?

[crusty2]

Would have thought that with LIP regulations, this incident would never have been able to happen. From the weighbridge to the bottling line, every litre has to be accounted for!

LIP, Labeling Integrity Program, is designed to ensure that what is stated on the label is what is in the bottle (in it's most simplistic form and allowing for the 15% rules)
Lost Barrels - great marketing. Could be a customer wanted these barrels held for a personal bottling and eventually said no. The winery then had the option of blending to the 15% rule into another vintage or releasing a "special bottling"
One of many options

[Mahmoud Ali]

Would have thought that with LIP regulations, this incident would never have been able to happen. From the weighbridge to the bottling line, every litre has to be accounted for!

LIP, Labeling Integrity Program, is designed to ensure that what is stated on the label is what is in the bottle (in it's most simplistic form and allowing for the 15% rules)
Lost Barrels - great marketing. Could be a customer wanted these barrels held for a personal bottling and eventually said no. The winery then had the option of blending to the 15% rule into another vintage or releasing a "special bottling"
One of many options

I don't quite see how the LIP has any bearing on this Teusner wine. From what Allan said Teusner labeled this wine correctly, as a vintage Barossa shiraz. Surely there is no bar on keeping barrels of wine for longer periods of time. Wineries that make late disgorged sparkling and tawny ports routinely hold back stock while releasing their regular wines.

I'm not so cynical about Teusner mainly because they are putting their name on the label and identifying it as a separate wine and not the Albert. This is very different from Schild Estates who concocted a new blend and released as it as if it was the same as their first release which garnered a good critical review. They only made an effort at correction when caught out.

As for Tuesner making this wine as a contract customer I suspect they would have handled it differently. At Bleasedale's cellar door in Langehorn Creek they had on special a wine that had a different name which they told me was a contract wine they had made but was not fulfilled. It was not part of their portfolio and was a one off. The back label did say it was made by Bleasdale. There was no attempt to pass it off as one of "their" wine if get what I mean.

As for "lost barrels" it might also be misplaced of forgotten. I rocked up to Eldrige in the Clare Valley where the owner and vintner was cleaning barrels and rummaging around the cellar. He told me he had come across a couple of barrels in the back that he had forgotten about. He said that when putting together one of his reserve wines, either the cabernet or the shiraz (I don't remember), he thought these barrels were not up to snuff. That day, he said he came across these barrels and when he tasted them he found them to quite good and that perhaps he ought to have used them.

By the way, both the 1998 Eldridge 'Blue Chip' Cabernet and Shiraz that I tasted at cellar door were very good, with me giving the edge to the cabernet. I walked out the door with a pair of signed bottles but not before meeting a couple who walked into the cellar door introducing themsleves as owners of the Eldridge winery in the Mornington Peninsula.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

PS: I don't know if I did ask Mr Eldridge what he planned to do with those "lost" barrels of wine.

[Con J]

That’s what I hear about the 1992 Mount Mary Merlot, it was a lost barrel or two that didn’t get into the Quintet blend and bottled as a one off.

May I add that good bottles are still drinking really well, had one a few month back.

Cheers Con.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Con,

Your post reminded me of my cellar door visit to Henschke. They had on hand a museum release of a 1972 cabernet franc or malbec. They said it was remnant wine good enough to be in the Mount Edelstone but wasn't used when they made the final composition of the blend.

Mahmoud.

[WineRick]

Would have thought that with LIP regulations, this incident would never have been able to happen. From the weighbridge to the bottling line, every litre has to be accounted for!

LIP, Labeling Integrity Program, is designed to ensure that what is stated on the label is what is in the bottle (in it's most simplistic form and allowing for the 15% rules)
Lost Barrels - great marketing. Could be a customer wanted these barrels held for a personal bottling and eventually said no. The winery then had the option of blending to the 15% rule into another vintage or releasing a "special bottling"
One of many options

I don't quite see how the LIP has any bearing on this Teusner wine. From what Allan said Teusner labeled this wine correctly, as a vintage Barossa shiraz. Surely there is no bar on keeping barrels of wine for longer periods of time. Wineries that make late disgorged sparkling and tawny ports routinely hold back stock while releasing their regular wines.

I'm not so cynical about Teusner mainly because they are putting their name on the label and identifying it as a separate wine and not the Albert. This is very different from Schild Estates who concocted a new blend and released as it as if it was the same as their first release which garnered a good critical review. They only made an effort at correction when caught out.

As for Tuesner making this wine as a contract customer I suspect they would have handled it differently. At Bleasedale's cellar door in Langehorn Creek they had on special a wine that had a different name which they told me was a contract wine they had made but was not fulfilled. It was not part of their portfolio and was a one off. The back label did say it was made by Bleasdale. There was no attempt to pass it off as one of "their" wine if get what I mean.

As for "lost barrels" it might also be misplaced of forgotten. I rocked up to Eldrige in the Clare Valley where the owner and vintner was cleaning barrels and rummaging around the cellar. He told me he had come across a couple of barrels in the back that he had forgotten about. He said that when putting together one of his reserve wines, either the cabernet or the shiraz (I don't remember), he thought these barrels were not up to snuff. That day, he said he came across these barrels and when he tasted them he found them to quite good and that perhaps he ought to have used them.

By the way, both the 1998 Eldridge 'Blue Chip' Cabernet and Shiraz that I tasted at cellar door were very good, with me giving the edge to the cabernet. I walked out the door with a pair of signed bottles but not before meeting a couple who walked into the cellar door introducing themsleves as owners of the Eldridge winery in the Mornington Peninsula.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

PS: I don't know if I did ask Mr Eldridge what he planned to do with those "lost" barrels of wine.

Mahmoud,
Firstly, I certainly don't want to impugn Kym Teusner's reputation - I know him well and respect him highly.
I think the concept of 'lost barrels' is a good, spoken marketing story.
My comment about LIP regulations probably needs expanding - please permit me to elaborate.

Under current Wine Australia Wine Law, incorporating LIP regulations, a wine producer needs to be able to show a detailed and accurate 'berry-to-bottle' history. It's certainly much more than what's on the label.

Starting at the weighbridge after picking, the cartnote needs to show date of picking, grape variety(s), name of vineyard block (if individual vineyard is to be claimed ), grower's name, driver's name, hand- vs machine and ownership status of the grapes about to be crushed. Any additions at/prior to crushing - tartaric acid, tannin, enzymes, SO2, oak chips!, etc. - need to be recorded, and as water is now a permitted addition in certain conditions, pre- and post sugar levels need to be recorded when the 'black snake' is used.
After crushing, volumes need to be recorded ex-press for whites, and also after racking off solids prior to the white's ferment. Any additions - 'adds' - at this stage need to be recorded. Post ferment, and racking off gross lees, new volumes are recorded
After fermentation, extraction rates are determined for red grapes when pressing is completed - helps to show free-run, light pressings and then hard pressing yields. These figures are particularly important as regional/vintage year volumes can be compared for anomalies!
Premium reds, and some whites, will enjoy a period of time in wood. Each barrel has to be substantially labelled, showing vintage, variety / blend, vineyard block and BARREL NUMBER. Chalk labelling is not permitted!!

Prior to bottling, volumes after racking from fining /cold stabilisation in the case of whites and any racking off finings for reds need to be recorded, together with any extra blending that may have occurred during the wine's life.
Nearly there - now to bottling!
The bottling volume, together with the number of the last tank holding the wine ( or barrel numbers for reds ) are noted. If the wine is to be transported to a contract bottler, then the trucking cartnote must show vintage and description of the wine, volume loaded and driver's name, and signed by both the driver and consigning cellar-hand/winemaker. The receiving bottling establishment notes incoming volume, and finally the volume bottled and bottle sizes.

Down the track, may be months, might be years, a Wine Australia inspector might pop in for an audit. After a cuppa and a biscuit he might randomly select a wine, let's say your 2015 'Bluey's Block' Individual vineyard, French oak-matured Shiraz-Grenache-Mourvedre. This is where the 'Label' bit of LIP comes into it. You have to show the initial weighbridge cartnote(s) and the bottling figures, and EVERY THING that happened to that wine in between, in particular, back up what you say on the label.
So you'll risk a fine / licence suspension if records show that 20 barrels of 2015 'Bluey's' were filled but only 18 were used in the bottled wine. Of course, you'll have records showing the other 2 barrels in your cellar, put aside for a special bottling - could be for a local wine club or a special, retailer's bottling. In this day and age, with Australia's stringent LIP regulations, you don't loose 2 barrels!

Apologies for the length of the post - thought you'd be interested in the berry-to-bottle journey.
Cheers,
WineRick.

[Matt@5453]

LIP, Labeling Integrity Program, is designed to ensure that what is stated on the label is what is in the bottle (in it's most simplistic form and allowing for the 15% rules)
Lost Barrels - great marketing. Could be a customer wanted these barrels held for a personal bottling and eventually said no. The winery then had the option of blending to the 15% rule into another vintage or releasing a "special bottling"
One of many options

I don't quite see how the LIP has any bearing on this Teusner wine. From what Allan said Teusner labeled this wine correctly, as a vintage Barossa shiraz. Surely there is no bar on keeping barrels of wine for longer periods of time. Wineries that make late disgorged sparkling and tawny ports routinely hold back stock while releasing their regular wines.

I'm not so cynical about Teusner mainly because they are putting their name on the label and identifying it as a separate wine and not the Albert. This is very different from Schild Estates who concocted a new blend and released as it as if it was the same as their first release which garnered a good critical review. They only made an effort at correction when caught out.

As for Tuesner making this wine as a contract customer I suspect they would have handled it differently. At Bleasedale's cellar door in Langehorn Creek they had on special a wine that had a different name which they told me was a contract wine they had made but was not fulfilled. It was not part of their portfolio and was a one off. The back label did say it was made by Bleasdale. There was no attempt to pass it off as one of "their" wine if get what I mean.

As for "lost barrels" it might also be misplaced of forgotten. I rocked up to Eldrige in the Clare Valley where the owner and vintner was cleaning barrels and rummaging around the cellar. He told me he had come across a couple of barrels in the back that he had forgotten about. He said that when putting together one of his reserve wines, either the cabernet or the shiraz (I don't remember), he thought these barrels were not up to snuff. That day, he said he came across these barrels and when he tasted them he found them to quite good and that perhaps he ought to have used them.

By the way, both the 1998 Eldridge 'Blue Chip' Cabernet and Shiraz that I tasted at cellar door were very good, with me giving the edge to the cabernet. I walked out the door with a pair of signed bottles but not before meeting a couple who walked into the cellar door introducing themsleves as owners of the Eldridge winery in the Mornington Peninsula.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

PS: I don't know if I did ask Mr Eldridge what he planned to do with those "lost" barrels of wine.

Mahmoud,
Firstly, I certainly don't want to impugn Kym Teusner's reputation - I know him well and respect him highly.
I think the concept of 'lost barrels' is a good, spoken marketing story.
My comment about LIP regulations probably needs expanding - please permit me to elaborate.

Under current Wine Australia Wine Law, incorporating LIP regulations, a wine producer needs to be able to show a detailed and accurate 'berry-to-bottle' history. It's certainly much more than what's on the label.

Starting at the weighbridge after picking, the cartnote needs to show date of picking, grape variety(s), name of vineyard block (if individual vineyard is to be claimed ), grower's name, driver's name, hand- vs machine and ownership status of the grapes about to be crushed. Any additions at/prior to crushing - tartaric acid, tannin, enzymes, SO2, oak chips!, etc. - need to be recorded, and as water is now a permitted addition in certain conditions, pre- and post sugar levels need to be recorded when the 'black snake' is used.
After crushing, volumes need to be recorded ex-press for whites, and also after racking off solids prior to the white's ferment. Any additions - 'adds' - at this stage need to be recorded. Post ferment, and racking off gross lees, new volumes are recorded
After fermentation, extraction rates are determined for red grapes when pressing is completed - helps to show free-run, light pressings and then hard pressing yields. These figures are particularly important as regional/vintage year volumes can be compared for anomalies!
Premium reds, and some whites, will enjoy a period of time in wood. Each barrel has to be substantially labelled, showing vintage, variety / blend, vineyard block and BARREL NUMBER. Chalk labelling is not permitted!!

Prior to bottling, volumes after racking from fining /cold stabilisation in the case of whites and any racking off finings for reds need to be recorded, together with any extra blending that may have occurred during the wine's life.
Nearly there - now to bottling!
The bottling volume, together with the number of the last tank holding the wine ( or barrel numbers for reds ) are noted. If the wine is to be transported to a contract bottler, then the trucking cartnote must show vintage and description of the wine, volume loaded and driver's name, and signed by both the driver and consigning cellar-hand/winemaker. The receiving bottling establishment notes incoming volume, and finally the volume bottled and bottle sizes.

Down the track, may be months, might be years, a Wine Australia inspector might pop in for an audit. After a cuppa and a biscuit he might randomly select a wine, let's say your 2015 'Bluey's Block' Individual vineyard, French oak-matured Shiraz-Grenache-Mourvedre. This is where the 'Label' bit of LIP comes into it. You have to show the initial weighbridge cartnote(s) and the bottling figures, and EVERY THING that happened to that wine in between, in particular, back up what you say on the label.
So you'll risk a fine / licence suspension if records show that 20 barrels of 2015 'Bluey's' were filled but only 18 were used in the bottled wine. Of course, you'll have records showing the other 2 barrels in your cellar, put aside for a special bottling - could be for a local wine club or a special, retailer's bottling. In this day and age, with Australia's stringent LIP regulations, you don't loose 2 barrels!

Apologies for the length of the post - thought you'd be interested in the berry-to-bottle journey.
Cheers,
WineRick.

This is politically correct, as you'd know there are so many grey areas in this, it's very easy to lose 2-3 barrels worth of wine in larger blends.
Its like speeding, you can be 2-5km over the speed limit and not get caught due to tolerances, in some establishments , for example, there are no exact measurements of all additions, losses and the like. Some places have far better systems than others too.

[WineRick]

I don't quite see how the LIP has any bearing on this Teusner wine. From what Allan said Teusner labeled this wine correctly, as a vintage Barossa shiraz. Surely there is no bar on keeping barrels of wine for longer periods of time. Wineries that make late disgorged sparkling and tawny ports routinely hold back stock while releasing their regular wines.

I'm not so cynical about Teusner mainly because they are putting their name on the label and identifying it as a separate wine and not the Albert. This is very different from Schild Estates who concocted a new blend and released as it as if it was the same as their first release which garnered a good critical review. They only made an effort at correction when caught out.

As for Tuesner making this wine as a contract customer I suspect they would have handled it differently. At Bleasedale's cellar door in Langehorn Creek they had on special a wine that had a different name which they told me was a contract wine they had made but was not fulfilled. It was not part of their portfolio and was a one off. The back label did say it was made by Bleasdale. There was no attempt to pass it off as one of "their" wine if get what I mean.

As for "lost barrels" it might also be misplaced of forgotten. I rocked up to Eldrige in the Clare Valley where the owner and vintner was cleaning barrels and rummaging around the cellar. He told me he had come across a couple of barrels in the back that he had forgotten about. He said that when putting together one of his reserve wines, either the cabernet or the shiraz (I don't remember), he thought these barrels were not up to snuff. That day, he said he came across these barrels and when he tasted them he found them to quite good and that perhaps he ought to have used them.

By the way, both the 1998 Eldridge 'Blue Chip' Cabernet and Shiraz that I tasted at cellar door were very good, with me giving the edge to the cabernet. I walked out the door with a pair of signed bottles but not before meeting a couple who walked into the cellar door introducing themsleves as owners of the Eldridge winery in the Mornington Peninsula.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

PS: I don't know if I did ask Mr Eldridge what he planned to do with those "lost" barrels of wine.

Mahmoud,
Firstly, I certainly don't want to impugn Kym Teusner's reputation - I know him well and respect him highly.
I think the concept of 'lost barrels' is a good, spoken marketing story.
My comment about LIP regulations probably needs expanding - please permit me to elaborate.

Under current Wine Australia Wine Law, incorporating LIP regulations, a wine producer needs to be able to show a detailed and accurate 'berry-to-bottle' history. It's certainly much more than what's on the label.

Starting at the weighbridge after picking, the cartnote needs to show date of picking, grape variety(s), name of vineyard block (if individual vineyard is to be claimed ), grower's name, driver's name, hand- vs machine and ownership status of the grapes about to be crushed. Any additions at/prior to crushing - tartaric acid, tannin, enzymes, SO2, oak chips!, etc. - need to be recorded, and as water is now a permitted addition in certain conditions, pre- and post sugar levels need to be recorded when the 'black snake' is used.
After crushing, volumes need to be recorded ex-press for whites, and also after racking off solids prior to the white's ferment. Any additions - 'adds' - at this stage need to be recorded. Post ferment, and racking off gross lees, new volumes are recorded
After fermentation, extraction rates are determined for red grapes when pressing is completed - helps to show free-run, light pressings and then hard pressing yields. These figures are particularly important as regional/vintage year volumes can be compared for anomalies!
Premium reds, and some whites, will enjoy a period of time in wood. Each barrel has to be substantially labelled, showing vintage, variety / blend, vineyard block and BARREL NUMBER. Chalk labelling is not permitted!!

Prior to bottling, volumes after racking from fining /cold stabilisation in the case of whites and any racking off finings for reds need to be recorded, together with any extra blending that may have occurred during the wine's life.
Nearly there - now to bottling!
The bottling volume, together with the number of the last tank holding the wine ( or barrel numbers for reds ) are noted. If the wine is to be transported to a contract bottler, then the trucking cartnote must show vintage and description of the wine, volume loaded and driver's name, and signed by both the driver and consigning cellar-hand/winemaker. The receiving bottling establishment notes incoming volume, and finally the volume bottled and bottle sizes.

Down the track, may be months, might be years, a Wine Australia inspector might pop in for an audit. After a cuppa and a biscuit he might randomly select a wine, let's say your 2015 'Bluey's Block' Individual vineyard, French oak-matured Shiraz-Grenache-Mourvedre. This is where the 'Label' bit of LIP comes into it. You have to show the initial weighbridge cartnote(s) and the bottling figures, and EVERY THING that happened to that wine in between, in particular, back up what you say on the label.
So you'll risk a fine / licence suspension if records show that 20 barrels of 2015 'Bluey's' were filled but only 18 were used in the bottled wine. Of course, you'll have records showing the other 2 barrels in your cellar, put aside for a special bottling - could be for a local wine club or a special, retailer's bottling. In this day and age, with Australia's stringent LIP regulations, you don't loose 2 barrels!

Apologies for the length of the post - thought you'd be interested in the berry-to-bottle journey.
Cheers,
WineRick.

This is politically correct, as you'd know there are so many grey areas in this, it's very easy to lose 2-3 barrels worth of wine in larger blends.
Its like speeding, you can be 2-5km over the speed limit and not get caught due to tolerances, in some establishments , for example, there are no exact measurements of all additions, losses and the like. Some places have far better systems than others too.

Surprised at your comment about PC - this ain't PC ... this is fucking law! In 40 years I've had 2 each ATO and LIP audits - clean on both counts - I'd have the ATO audits every day, much easier! Yes, you can 'loose ' 2 -3 barrels worth of wine in larger blends' but you have to show, in your records, where it went. It's nothing like speeding. all, not some, places have to have the same level of record keeping.

[Matt@5453]

Mahmoud,
Firstly, I certainly don't want to impugn Kym Teusner's reputation - I know him well and respect him highly.
I think the concept of 'lost barrels' is a good, spoken marketing story.
My comment about LIP regulations probably needs expanding - please permit me to elaborate.

Under current Wine Australia Wine Law, incorporating LIP regulations, a wine producer needs to be able to show a detailed and accurate 'berry-to-bottle' history. It's certainly much more than what's on the label.

Starting at the weighbridge after picking, the cartnote needs to show date of picking, grape variety(s), name of vineyard block (if individual vineyard is to be claimed ), grower's name, driver's name, hand- vs machine and ownership status of the grapes about to be crushed. Any additions at/prior to crushing - tartaric acid, tannin, enzymes, SO2, oak chips!, etc. - need to be recorded, and as water is now a permitted addition in certain conditions, pre- and post sugar levels need to be recorded when the 'black snake' is used.
After crushing, volumes need to be recorded ex-press for whites, and also after racking off solids prior to the white's ferment. Any additions - 'adds' - at this stage need to be recorded. Post ferment, and racking off gross lees, new volumes are recorded
After fermentation, extraction rates are determined for red grapes when pressing is completed - helps to show free-run, light pressings and then hard pressing yields. These figures are particularly important as regional/vintage year volumes can be compared for anomalies!
Premium reds, and some whites, will enjoy a period of time in wood. Each barrel has to be substantially labelled, showing vintage, variety / blend, vineyard block and BARREL NUMBER. Chalk labelling is not permitted!!

Prior to bottling, volumes after racking from fining /cold stabilisation in the case of whites and any racking off finings for reds need to be recorded, together with any extra blending that may have occurred during the wine's life.
Nearly there - now to bottling!
The bottling volume, together with the number of the last tank holding the wine ( or barrel numbers for reds ) are noted. If the wine is to be transported to a contract bottler, then the trucking cartnote must show vintage and description of the wine, volume loaded and driver's name, and signed by both the driver and consigning cellar-hand/winemaker. The receiving bottling establishment notes incoming volume, and finally the volume bottled and bottle sizes.

Down the track, may be months, might be years, a Wine Australia inspector might pop in for an audit. After a cuppa and a biscuit he might randomly select a wine, let's say your 2015 'Bluey's Block' Individual vineyard, French oak-matured Shiraz-Grenache-Mourvedre. This is where the 'Label' bit of LIP comes into it. You have to show the initial weighbridge cartnote(s) and the bottling figures, and EVERY THING that happened to that wine in between, in particular, back up what you say on the label.
So you'll risk a fine / licence suspension if records show that 20 barrels of 2015 'Bluey's' were filled but only 18 were used in the bottled wine. Of course, you'll have records showing the other 2 barrels in your cellar, put aside for a special bottling - could be for a local wine club or a special, retailer's bottling. In this day and age, with Australia's stringent LIP regulations, you don't loose 2 barrels!

Apologies for the length of the post - thought you'd be interested in the berry-to-bottle journey.
Cheers,
WineRick.

This is politically correct, as you'd know there are so many grey areas in this, it's very easy to lose 2-3 barrels worth of wine in larger blends.
Its like speeding, you can be 2-5km over the speed limit and not get caught due to tolerances, in some establishments , for example, there are no exact measurements of all additions, losses and the like. Some places have far better systems than others too.

Surprised at your comment about PC - this ain't PC ... this is fucking law! In 40 years I've had 2 each ATO and LIP audits - clean on both counts - I'd have the ATO audits every day, much easier! Yes, you can 'loose ' 2 -3 barrels worth of wine in larger blends' but you have to show, in your records, where it went. It's nothing like speeding. all, not some, places have to have the same level of record keeping.

Cry me a river, you winemakers are a law on yourselves
People fuck up and people like you cover it up to ensure compliance. I've seen it for decades.
Like I said, some have better systems than others.
How do you measure how much water you are now adding? I doubt you have any flow meters champ.

[WineRick]

This is politically correct, as you'd know there are so many grey areas in this, it's very easy to lose 2-3 barrels worth of wine in larger blends.
Its like speeding, you can be 2-5km over the speed limit and not get caught due to tolerances, in some establishments , for example, there are no exact measurements of all additions, losses and the like. Some places have far better systems than others too.

Surprised at your comment about PC - this ain't PC ... this is fucking law! In 40 years I've had 2 each ATO and LIP audits - clean on both counts - I'd have the ATO audits every day, much easier! Yes, you can 'loose ' 2 -3 barrels worth of wine in larger blends' but you have to show, in your records, where it went. It's nothing like speeding. all, not some, places have to have the same level of record keeping.

Cry me a river, you winemakers are a law on yourselves
People fuck up and people like you cover it up to ensure compliance. I've seen it for decades.
Like I said, some have better systems than others.
How do you measure how much water you are now adding? I doubt you have any flow meters champ.

I'm no longer a winemaker ... I'm fighting cancer at the moment! I find your last comments offensive... I will show my wife , and children, in the morning. I don't think you're a nice person !

[WineRick]

I've never covered up anything.
There is only one system .... it's called LIP.
I have never added water to any of my ferments in 35 years.
Get a life!

[WineRick]

Champ ... get fucked!

[Matt@5453]

Surprised at your comment about PC - this ain't PC ... this is fucking law! In 40 years I've had 2 each ATO and LIP audits - clean on both counts - I'd have the ATO audits every day, much easier! Yes, you can 'loose ' 2 -3 barrels worth of wine in larger blends' but you have to show, in your records, where it went. It's nothing like speeding. all, not some, places have to have the same level of record keeping.

Cry me a river, you winemakers are a law on yourselves
People fuck up and people like you cover it up to ensure compliance. I've seen it for decades.
Like I said, some have better systems than others.
How do you measure how much water you are now adding? I doubt you have any flow meters champ.

I'm no longer a winemaker ... I'm fighting cancer at the moment! I find your last comments offensive... I will show my wife , and children, in the morning. I don't think you're a nice person !

I'm sorry to hear of your health issues. You never stated that upfront. You can't drop that now..

Despite your condition, your experience would definitely know and demonstrate that agricultural and climatic variation requires winemaker intervention, whether small or large scale, winemakers have a huge impact on intake, processing, additions etc. I've worked at places where barrels have been uncovered, years later despite good systems. maybe you have not worked in such places, with all due respect.

If you found my comments on water addition offensive, I'm sorry, but its now legislated. But the black snake has been employed many of times in the past. Only you would know.

Sorry if your family find this offensive but it's commercial reality.

I hope your personal health issues are resolved.

[WineRick]

I have never used the black snake! 'Only you would know' is offensive.
I knew when it was legislated .
No, I definitely shouldn't have brought in my health issues. I apologise.

[Matt@5453]

I have never used the black snake! 'Only you would know' is offensive.
I knew when it was legislated .
No, I definitely shouldn't have brought in my health issues. I apologise.

Back to the original topic, it is very conceivable that a winery can overlook 1 or 2 barrels whether it be lack of systems, or poor management. I've seen it first hand! PM me if you want to continue this discussion for the specific details.

[WineRick]

I have never used the black snake! 'Only you would know' is offensive.
I knew when it was legislated .
No, I definitely shouldn't have brought in my health issues. I apologise.

Back to the original topic, it is very conceivable that a winery can overlook 1 or 2 barrels whether it be lack of systems, or poor management. I've seen it first hand! PM me if you want to continue this discussion for the specific details.

This is my whole point ... you can't 'overlook 1 or 2 barrels' . ... it's not lack of systems or poor management .. if you've seen it first hand, you should have notified your record keeper. You could be liable.

[Waiters Friend]

"Back to the original topic". That was a 2005 shiraz. I suggest we have strayed far from the subject and more importantly, the thread has become something that parts of should be deleted. It's become personal. I wish I had not asked about LIP regulations now, and I'll let the administrators of this site decide if they wish to edit. Or I will.

[WineRick]

Happy to have all my comments deleted - don't know how. Sorry for my anger.