Stupid question, but I have to ask it ...

[Campbell]

After all these years of tasting wine, I'm back at the start. QUESTION: What makes wine, wine? Is the phrase "fermented grape juice" the basic (and essential) description of wine, or is it possible to take some grape juice, add neutral alcohol to it, and call this wine? i.e. does fermentation have to occur to call it wine, or is grape juice plus alcohol enough to warrant the name "wine"?

thanks all,

Campbell.

[Gavin Trott]

After all these years of tasting wine, I'm back at the start. QUESTION: What makes wine, wine? Is the phrase "fermented grape juice" the basic (and essential) description of wine, or is it possible to take some grape juice, add neutral alcohol to it, and call this wine? i.e. does fermentation have to occur to call it wine, or is grape juice plus alcohol enough to warrant the name "wine"?

thanks all,

Campbell.

Sheesh Campbell

Fancy asking intelligent questions, I haven't had a drink yet!

The answer is, I think, both.

If you could get 'dry' grape juice, add alcohol to it and make it taste good, it would be wine. People would buy it, drink it etc.

Wine for me is much more than that, not only must it be fermented from grapes, it must say something to me. Large commercial brand wines generally don't do this for me and I rarely drink them.

Wine for me must have a personality. It must speak of its origins, even if that is just regionality, and hopefully the imprint of its maker. (Yes I'm a retailer, but I came to that from wine lover.)

Just very quick off the cuff thoughts.

[GraemeG]

After all these years of tasting wine, I'm back at the start. QUESTION: What makes wine, wine? Is the phrase "fermented grape juice" the basic (and essential) description of wine,

It's the basic description, yes; those are the elements of the physical make-up of wine. But it no more covers the subject than "a series of differently-pitched noises sounding for varied lengths of time" is an acceptable definition of music...

or is it possible to take some grape juice, add neutral alcohol to it, and call this wine? i.e. does fermentation have to occur to call it wine, or is grape juice plus alcohol enough to warrant the name "wine"?

I don't know how easy it is to buy pure alcohol, but if you did and added some to grape juice, who would expect that the result could ever be confused with 'wine' as we know it? Not me, at least, unless the tasters were utter novices.

No, for me one of the critical factors that defines wine is that the alcohol gets into the wine by means of yeast acting on the sugar within the juice. I don't think just fortifying grape juice is enough.

(But I'm beginning to understand why your asking the question. So how come we add spirit to wine and it remains wine? How come we add süssreserve to wine and it remains wine? Still, the initial fermentation is a 'natural' process...)

cheers,
Graeme

[Davo]

Wine is fermented grape juice. No other way of making it. Even high residual sugar wines such as the sweet fortifieds are fermented for a period of time.

The addition of alcohol to fruit juice, be it grape of any other fruit is considered a Fruit cocktail.

"wine means the product of the complete or partial fermentation of fresh grapes, or a mixture of that product and products derived solely from grapes." as quoted from the Australian Food Standards, STANDARD 4.5.1

WINE PRODUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Go to the AWBC site for any regulatory info you may want :- http://www.awbc.com.au/Content.aspx?p=88#top

[Davo]

Wine is fermented grape juice. No other way of making it. Even high residual sugar wines such as the sweet fortifieds are fermented for a period of time.

The addition of alcohol to fruit juice, be it grape of any other fruit is not considered a wine.

"wine means the product of the complete or partial fermentation of fresh grapes, or a mixture of that product and products derived solely from grapes." as quoted from the Australian Food Standards, STANDARD 4.5.1

WINE PRODUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Go to the AWBC site for any regulatory info you may want :- http://www.awbc.com.au/Content.aspx?p=88#top

[Campbell]

Great responses Davo and Graeme and Gavin, many thanks.

Just one quick question then: if a wine is not fermented at all (not even partially), but simply has neutral spirit added to unfermented grape juice, many people would not consider this to be wine, yes? Would you agree with this?

Campbell.

[Gavin Trott]

Great responses Davo and Graeme and Gavin, many thanks.

Just one quick question then: if a wine is not fermented at all (not even partially), but simply has neutral spirit added to unfermented grape juice, many people would not consider this to be wine, yes? Would you agree with this?

Campbell.

Nope, sometimes, in some vintages, I understand that Chambers (and perhaps other rutherglen producers) does not even ferment its Muscat at all, simply fortifies it as is, then ages, blends into Liqueur Muscats etc.

or so I believe?

and that stuff is certainly wine, great wine.

[Campbell]

All right, all right, you got me. Chambers was who I had in mind. They always ferment their muscat a couple of baume, but the Tokay - oftentimes they don't ferment it at all, not even partially - it's just grape juice that has been settled, then fortified with neutral spirit.

And it is wine, in the spirit of wine, but not really to the letter of it. A curiousity. I must admit, when I heard how they make it recently, I went ... hang on, is that wine? Where's the fermentation? Is this legal?

Regardless, it's a beautiful drink.

And next time you have someone say: Wine is just fermented grape juice, feel free to say - 'Well, usually it is.'

Campbell.

[Glen]

Hi Campbell

Have you heard of these two famous wine styles from France?

Pineau des Charentes (Cognac)
Ratafia (Burgundy)

I think there are probably other versions from various countries, but they are all basically grape juice fortified with either brandy or 'pure' alcohol spirit.

Mountadam was producing a Pinot Noir and Chardonnay ratafia for a few years and were made using the solera system. I think they decided to drop it as people didn't know what it was. I think they are still selling stocks of it though.

[Campbell]

Hi Glen,

Heard of them, tasted them, even tasted the Mountadam one too I think ... just didn't realise that they never underwent any sort of fermentation. I like to make all my judgements on what's in the glass, rather than how it got there, but sometimes the process is so intriguing ...

cm.

[cranky]

Interesting topic!

How about some of the extreme PX sherries (I have had one which really tasted like rasin syrup with a bit of smooth spirit) and Tokaji eszencia (sometimes with near zero alcohol content)?

Cheers