When decent burgandy is one of the great cellaring wines why is it Aussie pinots dont last more than 3-4 yrs as a rule (i know there are a few exceptions..like Mt Mary, Bass Phillip Premium etc). Is it the soil,climate,clones used,vine age, winemaking or all of the above?
At the prices charged for decent Pinots which is often $30 + i feel these wines should last longer than they do. Does anyone have any idea why ours do not stand the test of time? Also do kiwi pinots fare any better?
Cheers
Paul
Why doesn't Aussie Pinot Noir cellar well?
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Phil Shorten
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:19 am
Burgundy vs Oz pinot (and NZ)
Paul
Some guesses as to why....
- Age of vines - Pretty young vines still here in Oz.
- Matching the right clone with the right vineyard site.
- Planting density - Very high in Burgundy, with yields being correspondingly low.
- Climate and annual weather conditions affecting the speed at which the grapes ripen, ripeness of tannins, potential alcohol levels etc - Burgundy is a cool continental climate which means that the grapes are only going to fully ripen on the better south facing slopes and are naturally likely to have a high level of natural acidity and will tend to ripen relatively slowly. In most vintages Burgundy doesn't have the hot temperatures that even the coolest of Australian regions endure.
- Method of vinification - temperature and timing of fermentation, fining and filtration (may affect flavour profile more than ageability), use of oak (old, new, seasoning etc). The Burgundians have been playing around with these things for a lot longer than anyone in the New World.
Just some ideas. Look at the most successful areas of the New World for Pinot Noir and you're looking at the margin of wine production - Central Otago, Oregon, Walker Bay. In the more successful areas within Oz (Tasmania, Gippsland, parts of the Yarra Valley, Bellarine Peninsula) it's difficult to ripen other black grape varieties.
FWIW, while I think NZ is making pretty smart stuff, it still doesn't have the same structure as good red Burgundy, though perhaps this will change as the vines mature and vinification techniques are fine tuned.
Notwithstanding all of this, I am still reticent to "go long" and invest in either. Have had disappointments with Oz Pinot a Burgundy tasting (all mature wines) I went to last week indicated that I'd be better off spending my hard earned pounds elsewhere!!
Cheers
Phil
Some guesses as to why....
- Age of vines - Pretty young vines still here in Oz.
- Matching the right clone with the right vineyard site.
- Planting density - Very high in Burgundy, with yields being correspondingly low.
- Climate and annual weather conditions affecting the speed at which the grapes ripen, ripeness of tannins, potential alcohol levels etc - Burgundy is a cool continental climate which means that the grapes are only going to fully ripen on the better south facing slopes and are naturally likely to have a high level of natural acidity and will tend to ripen relatively slowly. In most vintages Burgundy doesn't have the hot temperatures that even the coolest of Australian regions endure.
- Method of vinification - temperature and timing of fermentation, fining and filtration (may affect flavour profile more than ageability), use of oak (old, new, seasoning etc). The Burgundians have been playing around with these things for a lot longer than anyone in the New World.
Just some ideas. Look at the most successful areas of the New World for Pinot Noir and you're looking at the margin of wine production - Central Otago, Oregon, Walker Bay. In the more successful areas within Oz (Tasmania, Gippsland, parts of the Yarra Valley, Bellarine Peninsula) it's difficult to ripen other black grape varieties.
FWIW, while I think NZ is making pretty smart stuff, it still doesn't have the same structure as good red Burgundy, though perhaps this will change as the vines mature and vinification techniques are fine tuned.
Notwithstanding all of this, I am still reticent to "go long" and invest in either. Have had disappointments with Oz Pinot a Burgundy tasting (all mature wines) I went to last week indicated that I'd be better off spending my hard earned pounds elsewhere!!
Cheers
Phil
In the end...
.... really who cares except to say drink the stuff when its at its best. if its at its best in 3 years then drink it then!!!
If you just like looking at the bottle for years in anticipation then keep the empty one after you have drunk it!!
i cant see the corolation between quality and cellar life.
Cellar the ones that need cellaring and thank god for the ones that dont
If you just like looking at the bottle for years in anticipation then keep the empty one after you have drunk it!!
i cant see the corolation between quality and cellar life.
Cellar the ones that need cellaring and thank god for the ones that dont
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Phil Shorten
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:19 am
Fair point Craig....
..and who says that Australian Shiraz should taste like Hermitage or Cote Rotie (although some of Australia's greatest wines have been modelled in part on ageworthy European wines; think Grange and the wines of the Medoc).
Still, one shouldn't necessarily believe red Burgundy to be the sole manifestation of Pinot Noir. As to ageability, I guess the issue partly depends on whether you like wines ostensibly driven by primary fruit, or mature secondary characters. In my experience, some of the very good New Zealand pinots (and certain Australian wines) have been best enjoyed in their (relative) youth.
Cheers
Phil
Still, one shouldn't necessarily believe red Burgundy to be the sole manifestation of Pinot Noir. As to ageability, I guess the issue partly depends on whether you like wines ostensibly driven by primary fruit, or mature secondary characters. In my experience, some of the very good New Zealand pinots (and certain Australian wines) have been best enjoyed in their (relative) youth.
Cheers
Phil
Thanks for the replys guys. I guess there are many factors involved..and i guess the decent aging pinots from Burgandy may not be so much greater in number..i dont really know.
I'm happy to drink wines young if thats when they are at there best..and i am equally happy to buy a case or two and drink them over many years....depends on the wine..i was just curious as to why aussie pinots are not so long lived.
I'm happy to drink wines young if thats when they are at there best..and i am equally happy to buy a case or two and drink them over many years....depends on the wine..i was just curious as to why aussie pinots are not so long lived.
I believe
the reason why Australian Pinot Noir doesn't cellar well in most cases because the vines they come from are maybe too young (under 15 y of age) and the winemaker just CAN NOT FOCUS on the grape properly.
A Pinot Noir maker should be ruthless, very small yield, a great vintage, older vines, first class french oak, selection and the right clones are deciding factors. You simply can not make a great Pinot Noir for $30.
There are some great pinots in this country, made by the dedicated few.
I also believe, pinot noir is a GREAT variety, making some of the world's greatest wines. Not too long ago I've drunk a burgundy, ROBERT CHEVILLON's Nuits-Saint Georges 1er Cru 'Les Vaucrains' 1989, that took my breath away. Among others TORB was there as well, all spellbound. Nothing that night compared to such greatness. It was a bargain at AU $275.
I buy Aussie pinots very often, I have faith.
The last good one I found was the ROSEVEARS 2001 from Tasmania.
Cheers,
Attila
A Pinot Noir maker should be ruthless, very small yield, a great vintage, older vines, first class french oak, selection and the right clones are deciding factors. You simply can not make a great Pinot Noir for $30.
There are some great pinots in this country, made by the dedicated few.
I also believe, pinot noir is a GREAT variety, making some of the world's greatest wines. Not too long ago I've drunk a burgundy, ROBERT CHEVILLON's Nuits-Saint Georges 1er Cru 'Les Vaucrains' 1989, that took my breath away. Among others TORB was there as well, all spellbound. Nothing that night compared to such greatness. It was a bargain at AU $275.
I buy Aussie pinots very often, I have faith.
The last good one I found was the ROSEVEARS 2001 from Tasmania.
Cheers,
Attila
Thanks Attila..i too have faith in pinots....it makes such a great wine when done right. My favourites are Bannockburn, Bass Phillip (when i can both afford it and find it!!), Waipara Springs Reserve, Martinborough Vineyard, Villa Maria Reserve, Wither Hills. All make great wines.
Thanks again to everyone for the replys.
Cheers
Paul
Thanks again to everyone for the replys.
Cheers
Paul
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Guest
Well spoken Attila. I think half the problem we have had with Pinot Noir is where we have planted the variety. Remember for years, Tyrrells in the Hunter Valley was one of our best producers of this variety. This in it's own right, shows how wrong we have been with Pinot.
In Victoria, I think Geelong, Cooler parts of the Yarra Valley and Gippsland have the ability in great years to produce Pinot as good as anywhere in the world. Look at, Bass Phillip is I think he is in the top eschelon of Pinot makers in the world.
I don't like to think that great Pinot has to start at $30. Just because it is Pinot Noir, doesn't mean that your price scale starts at $30.As much as Pinot is a hard variety to grow, I don't think it is that much more expensive (to grow) than many other varieties. When looking at cheap Pinot Coldsream Hill standard Pinot has been brilliant at times (especially when Halliday owned it) and also other producers like No Regrets (who now regrettably charge $40 a bottle!) where producing great Pinot for around $30 and under.
cheers
anthony
In Victoria, I think Geelong, Cooler parts of the Yarra Valley and Gippsland have the ability in great years to produce Pinot as good as anywhere in the world. Look at, Bass Phillip is I think he is in the top eschelon of Pinot makers in the world.
I don't like to think that great Pinot has to start at $30. Just because it is Pinot Noir, doesn't mean that your price scale starts at $30.As much as Pinot is a hard variety to grow, I don't think it is that much more expensive (to grow) than many other varieties. When looking at cheap Pinot Coldsream Hill standard Pinot has been brilliant at times (especially when Halliday owned it) and also other producers like No Regrets (who now regrettably charge $40 a bottle!) where producing great Pinot for around $30 and under.
cheers
anthony
I agree....Site Selection, Clone and vine age are major contributing factors.
Pinot vines are very labour intensive (canopy managementwise) and seem to be.....well in my experience....pest and disease magnets and require a lot of attention in that department and they certainley don't like overcropping..... all of that pumps the price up.
A lot of Pinot in Australia is made from the MV6 clone, while that is great due to it's resistence levels to Powdery and Downy Mildew, it doesn't seem to produce fruit with the quality of the Djion clones...114,115, etc.
Victoria and Tassie the best spots.......I remember reading a book on viticultural case-studies at Uni, and how Flinders Island had one of the best micro-climates for growing Pinot in Australia......hmmmmm..anyone wan't to pitch in and start a vineyard
Cheers
Dave
Pinot vines are very labour intensive (canopy managementwise) and seem to be.....well in my experience....pest and disease magnets and require a lot of attention in that department and they certainley don't like overcropping..... all of that pumps the price up.
A lot of Pinot in Australia is made from the MV6 clone, while that is great due to it's resistence levels to Powdery and Downy Mildew, it doesn't seem to produce fruit with the quality of the Djion clones...114,115, etc.
Victoria and Tassie the best spots.......I remember reading a book on viticultural case-studies at Uni, and how Flinders Island had one of the best micro-climates for growing Pinot in Australia......hmmmmm..anyone wan't to pitch in and start a vineyard
Cheers
Dave