And now for something possibly contentious

[TORB]

Hi Good Peoples,

Tonight I posted the following on http://www.torbwine.com titled A Wake Up Call To Some Winemakers. With Gavin's permission I have reproduced it here for comment and debate, so go for it! What do you good people think?

The development of the Australian wine industry is one of change and evolution and itÂ’s obvious to all wine lovers that overall Australian wine is getting better as each year passes but I have some concerns and comments in relation to many of the current crop of South Australian (and some other) reds.

In the early 1980Â’s we underwent a green period where many of the wines were unripe. Thankfully things quickly changed and the ripeness improved and the green wave was over. The next wave was huge amounts of American Oak and thankfully thatÂ’s passing and the oak levels are becoming more judicious but even then some wineries have switched from over American oaked wines to under fruited French oaked wines.

The problem here is that because in many ways French oak is more subtle the over oaking is not as obvious until the initial fresh blush of youthful fruit starts to wear off and the oak characters start to become more prominent. Having tried a number of highly regarded high priced and well regarded mid priced 2000 Shiraz wines that have been matured in French oak, many of them are now showing large amounts of clove flavours which are oak derived. The initial fruit is fading and the resulting oak derived flavours are dominating. Not a good look and one that will only get worse with time. Purists may point out the effect of the poor 2000 vintage may be exaggerating the quick decline of the fruit in these wines but we are talking about wines that are meant to last more than three years.

Over-oaking, be it in French or American is still over-oaking the only difference is in many cases the wine with French Oak needs a little time to become obvious. This is something that those wineries that are playing around with Shiraz and French oak need to monitor carefully.

And although thatÂ’s an issue or stylistic adjustment that some wineries have to play with and get right, itÂ’s not the biggest issue facing South Australian wine lovers.

Now if you like sweet fermented blackberry or prune milkshakes donÂ’t read any further, this wonÂ’t interest you but if you like quality wine with some variety and complexity then keep going.

Over the last year I have tasted many of the 2001 new release wines as well as a number of 1998 vintage wines and have some grave concerns at the stylistic direction that many South Australian wineries are taking. And whilst I say that, these comments are not just restricted to 98, 01 and South Australia; they can and do apply to other vintages and other areas but to a lesser degree.

The issue could best be described as “pushing the ripeness envelope”. By that I mean that many wineries in an effort to achieve maximum flavour are going over the top and producing wines that have some or all of the following characteristics:-

* hot and alcoholic
* blackberry spectrum as the dominant flavour with little other flavour complexity
* prune and blackberry flavours
* stewed fruit characteristics

In most cases as these wines age the offending character of the wine will become magnified and become a caricature. The wines that seem hot and alcoholic now will be like drinking crude boring port in time. The blackberry and prune spectrum fruit in most cases will become totally one dimensional, lacking in complexity and generally full of flavour but boring. The stewed fruit wines will just become more stewed as the stew matures.

In terms of longevity, these wines will generally not mature well and will not last as long as long as their better balanced predecessors.

Full flavoured wines are desirable and many people love the in-your-face flavour intensity but as important as full ripe flavour is, balance is just as, if not, more important. For a wine to be ‘good’ as distinct from just ‘good tasting’ it must have complexity. These blackberry stewed prune alcoholic milkshakes are very short in that department. Unfortunately many wineries have sacrificed balance and complexity by pushing the ripeness envelope.

Some people may say, “Why shouldn't’t I buy, drink and enjoy something that tastes good when it’s young, I don’t want to wait 10-15 years” and that’s fine, that’s their right. However you can still have both big flavour and complexity if the wine is well made.

For those cellaring these wines, be aware, you may be disappointed with them in a few years time. For those wineries that keep going down this track, many of you are capable of better things and will look back in a few years time and wonder why you pushed the ripeness envelope so far. Too much of a good thing is not necessarily a good thing, be it flavour or French oak!

Lets have some debate!

[David Lole]

Ric,

The issues you raise run close to my heart. I have truckloads of '98 Oz red in my cellar, a lot I tried upon release, a lot bought on spec, a lot with predominantly French oak, a lot from S.A. I'm wondering if you could specify a few examples that typify the problems you've identified and I'll be happy to come back to you with my impressions having had a look at them. FWIW, the Edwards and Chaffey section 353 Shiraz at 14.5%, new French oak etc. was unbalanced, (alcohol) hot, overoaked and barely drinkable upon opening (last night) and just acceptable 24 hours later. I bought this bottle at auction recently for $20, purely on spec. Will buy no more if current indications are any guide.

[Martin Phillipson]

TORB

Just to add another log to the fire...

While we talk at length on the Forum about how consumer tastes are dictated by Parker, Halliday, Oliver, the bloke writing in your local free newspaper etc, I think we don't talk enough about how winemakers are similarly influenced. Clearly something other than the winemakers personal proclivities have induced the trend that you identify, it has to be wine writers who praise lavishly the move to French oak, and how many times do you see the phrase "lovely restrained use of oak" or words to such effect.

I know that everyone (including wine writers) is entitled to their opinion but in this instance I blame them!


I have my asbestos suit on today.....


Martin in Saskatoon

[Red Bigot]

David,

I'm a lot more tolerant of oak and high a/v than most people, I buy Johns Blend, Noons and Warrabilla after all.

If you have any more S353 Shiraz 98 @ $20 I'll take them off your hands. I loved this wine on release and I'm not touching it for a year or two yet, then I'll open one of the 94 equivalent at the same time for comparison, it's still going strong.

I reviewed Ric's draft and suggested the "Why shouldn't I..." bit, wineries still have to make money and while people (Parkerites and others) want these styles they will make them. Is there an update of the estimated percentage of wine drunk on the day of purchase? Many of the buyers of these wines seem to drink them within a couple of years (from various forum posts and Nicks recommendations ). Sometimes I just want to pour a young wine and be blown away by intensity of flavour without thinking too much about it all.

I'm hoping for myself (and Ric) that the large number of 98 reds in our respective cellars fare better than his article indicates, it will be a big test of our capabilities of picking cellaring wines and a big boost to the wine auctions if we have got it wrong.

Interesting to see at the last 1-2 NWS in Canberra the judges seemed to have consciously awarded high points to styles other than these, encouraging the more restrained and complex styles in preference to the concentrated big styles.

[David Lole]

David,


If you have any more S353 Shiraz 98 @ $20 I'll take them off your hands. I loved this wine on release and I'm not touching it for a year or two yet, then I'll open one of the 94 equivalent at the same time for comparison, it's still going strong.

Brian,

Just the one bottle procured, sorry!

As to the '94, agreed, it's drinking superbly with a power of fruit, well-integrated oak and great complexity. Drinking this wine until recently would have been a waste. I am well into my case and on the lookout for more. To the best of my recollection, the '94 is not as alcoholic as the '98, displaying far more fruit and far less oak as the '98 at a similar age. That said, there's always the possibility the '98's fruit has shutdown, something I'm finding more common in Oz reds at 4-6 years of age as the cellar expands. You're mostly left with an oaky/tannic shell -yuck

It's probably a good time to start looking at a few '98 reds, anyway.

Thanks for your post.

[rwatkins]

I agree with you for sure on one point. Alcohol has come to mean "good wine". I work in a wine store and if a customer looks at a wine and sees 12.5% (for a red) (10.5% for a white), they think the wine will be weak. When they see 14.5 or 15% they exclaim "wow!!! they must have had ripe fruit this year" I try these wines and am put off by the excessive alcohol. I had a German Riesling the other day, totally dry and only 11.5 %. Don't even get me started about why can't we make a great 3.5% beer? Rick in Canada

[TORB]

Ric,

I'm wondering if you could specify a few examples that typify the problems you've identified and I'll be happy to come back to you with my impressions having had a look at them.

David,

I am reluctant to give specific examples as its something I have been seeing building up over time. I noticed it a fair bit on my last SA trip in May with many of the 01's. A few of the 98's in my cellar are going a bit the same way but as I avoided buying many in this spectrum in the first place its not a great problem for me. Some of the latest Lehmann premium releases are heading in that direction, some of the Elderton Command barrel samples I tasted etc.

In terms of the French Oak issue, if you can taste loads of cloves it probably from the oak. The 2000 Sylvan Springs Shiraz and the 2000 Draycott are both wines that are starting to show more cloves now than when the wine was released. These are just two examples but there are others that it will happen to as the wine ages.

I know that everyone (including wine writers) is entitled to their opinion but in this instance I blame them!

Martin,

Some writers have more influence than others. Parker on the American palate for example! In Oz, there are a bevy of writers and whilst Halliday does have a big influence, its no where near as big as say Parker. In many cases the writers criticism is justified, but not always and in some cases when the wineries adjust to a new style they move to far in the direction they should be heading for and overshoot the target.

With Parker, is the problem Parker or the people that follow him? IMO its the followers that have empowered the leader and thats why he has the influence.

I agree with you for sure on one point. Alcohol has come to mean "good wine". I work in a wine store and if a customer looks at a wine and sees 12.5% (for a red) (10.5% for a white), they think the wine will be weak. When they see 14.5 or 15% they exclaim "wow!!! they must have had ripe fruit this year"

Rick,

This is a lot to do with the problem at hand. Much of it comes from changes to vineyard practises over the last 20 years and if the problem is to be rectified, it must take place in the vineyard first.

[Adair]

Gee Ric,

All I can do is agree with you. However, I do find it funny coming from you - it really must be bad - worse than I thought!

Ripe blackberry+ wines with the only complexity coming from oak is the the current bane of my life (Yes, I have a pretty stress free life ).

I regularly think about your article a few months/years ago about the changes in the vineyards that have obviously occurred over the past few decades - everytime I drink a 12% cracker from the 1980's for example!

From my viewpoint, there is nothing controversial here. I think most would agree it is fact. It makes my buying decisions easier!

Adair

[Adair]

Quick thought... people could argue that the higher alcohol benefits the wine due to a different mouthfeel it gives - I don't believe it but it could be argued - from the "structuralist" viewpoint.

Adair

[TORB]

Quick thought... people could argue that the higher alcohol benefits the wine due to a different mouthfeel it gives - I don't believe it but it could be argued - from the "structuralist" viewpoint.

Adair

Adair,

Not necessarily true! You could get a better mouth feel by using barrel fermentation for example.

[Adair]

Yes Ric, I agree, but some one could say: "I like the mouthfeel that alcohol gives rather than that of barrel fermentation". Gee, RPJ might say that! (I actually have a hypothesis that at a certain level the alcohol detracts from mouthfeel)

I am just saying that a preference sort of agrument could be used against your (and my) opinion here, although I think most would think it stupid - a bit like how some people agrue the case for RPJ in general. Anyway, I am just playing Devil's Advocate - or Buffoon! I think it is a bit like saying that I don't like my wine complex.

Hmmmmmmmm, interesting, I have seen the word Advocate used somewhere else in the wine world - - maybe I am on to something...

[Davo]

Ric,

Actually Adair is quite right.

Alcohol is a relatively heavy molecular structure and adds "weight" in the mouth. Hence a higher alcohol wine, all other things being equal, will have a fuller/weightier mouthfeel than its lower alcohol brothers.

Cheers, Davo

[TORB]

Ric,

Actually Adair is quite right.

Alcohol is a relatively heavy molecular structure and adds "weight" in the mouth. Hence a higher alcohol wine, all other things being equal, will have a fuller/weightier mouthfeel than its lower alcohol brothers.

Cheers, Davo

Davo and Adair,

Never argue with a doctor, you cant win. Yep, fuller mouthfeel is true but fuller does not necessarily mean better. You can have a 17% alcohol wine thats as full as a googie egg but if the tannins are rough as guts it's are not going to be attractive.

The tannin structure has a heap to do with mouth feel.

[DaveB]

Agreed.....tannin ripeness is the "new big thing"
Mouthfeel is a combination of viscosity and wine density. It is acknowledged that alcohol does have an effect on the overall fullness of a wine, as it increases a wines viscosity....
But it is not necessary to pump up a wines alcohol to achieve a fuller mouthfeel....and the ripeness of the tannins is the secret.
There are many variables both in the vineyard and the winery.....when you add SO2 has a big impact as does fining and filtration, extended macerations, chapitalisation (tut-tut), enzyme use.......aeration of the wine also has a huge impact on tannin structure.
I guess I'm not a big fan of high alcohol wines

Cheers

Dave

[JamieBahrain]

Went to the cellar last night and pulled out the ripest and highest alchohol Barossa shiraz I could find. Weighed in at 14.5%.

Decanted to let the stewed fruit nose blow off.

Ripe blackberry, background malty vanillan oak. Luscious upfront dark fruit and blackpepper on the backpalate. The oak is noticable,but not distracting, all the way through the palate. Rich aftertaste the product of this and the ripe fruit, and goes along way absorbing the alchohol along with balancing tannins and medium acidity.

The last glass, after 3hours in the jug, had a hot finish and more discernible oak. Fruit backing away.

I am 1999 Barossa shiraz and a nice medium term drink for the mid twenty dollar mark.

I like the style for what it is and realise it's cellaring limitations.

What I put in the cellar from that region rarely comes in under $40. But again a bit of a minefield!

[RogerPike]

Ric,

You have certainly identified a very real trend.
I can only speak of my experience in McLaren Vale where I do not believe that any winemakers have set out to make high alcohol stewed prune juice but have pushed the envelope due to a paranoid fear of those dreaded "green characters".
We are known for our ripe, soft, mouth-filling reds and there is the perception that riper and softer is better and the fear that a review which mentions "green characters" is death. Of course, that may well be the case. There are certainly a few green characters around in some of the 2000's that have been universally damned .
A grapegrower friend of mine related a conversation he had with the purchasing winemaker at harvest time this year when my friend was pushing to pick at 14 baume and the winemaker said, "Lets leave them on for a few days, there are some green characters at the southern end".

At the end of the day it is all about balance and structure and I do not for a moment think that we have lost the plot in McLaren Vale. There are going to be some fantastic 2002's.

PS The 1994 Edwards & Chaffey was a ripper and is a sort of proxy benchmark for me personally.

[TORB]

Hi Roger,

I guess that for those that donÂ’t know I should point out that you have your own micro winery in McLaren Vale and I did enjoy your 2000 Marius Shiraz.

You have certainly identified a very real trend.
I can only speak of my experience in McLaren Vale where I do not believe that any winemakers have set out to make high alcohol stewed prune juice but have pushed the envelope due to a paranoid fear of those dreaded "green characters".

There is nothing wrong with green characters per say. Many well made wines have green characters, especially Langhorne Creek, Clare Shiraz, Eden Valley and parts of Victoria are renowned for them. There is a huge difference between green ‘characteristics’ and “unripe green tannins, green flavours that are as a result of pressing to hard, or a green streak from overcropping.” The former is an attribute of complexity the latter examples are poor wine. Unfortunately it seems like they are being lumped together and the baby is being thrown out with the bath water!

A grapegrower friend of mine related a conversation he had with the purchasing winemaker at harvest time this year when my friend was pushing to pick at 14 baume and the winemaker said, "Lets leave them on for a few days, there are some green characters at the southern end".

One can only wonder about this situation. Had the grapes reached physiological ripeness with some green attributes and then left hang which pushed the envelope or could the small section have been blended in the final wine to add complexity? Or were they just not quite ripe or could the grapes have been better managed in the vineyard – I guess we will never know but these are all possibilities.

ItÂ’s interesting to note that when I have tried barrel samples in wineries prior to blending, frequently there are barrels with loads of green (ripe) characters that are wonderful barrels and when blended make great wines.

“At the end of the day it is all about balance and structure and I do not for a moment think that we have lost the plot in McLaren Vale. There are going to be some fantastic 2002's. "

The pushing the envelope question is not likely to be a huge problem in 2002 given the long slow summer when the grapes ripened over a long period. In fact itÂ’s unlikely the 02 vintage conditions will be repeated for a long time but given drought conditions and global warming, the 2001 vintage conditions are more likely to become a regular feature of winemaking.

[corcoran]

Responding to the original article, I agree, but I really haven't felt like this is spreading really quickly. As I mentioned in my weekly TN, I think the Sparky Marquis wines are in the most danger of going over the top. The Marquis-Philips lower end wines really seem stewed and confected to me, and have so much burnt character as to be undrinkable. I hope the Henry's Drive wines don't evolve in that direction.

The biggest problem is that the Marquis-Philips wines sell like crazy here in the States. I'm concerned that the popularity will induce other winemakers to try the same thing. I wonder sometimes if the technique isn't so much to push out the fruit as much as hide high yields.

I think it would be a disaster a lot of S.A winemakers followed Sparky's lead here, but as consumers we just have to use our purchasing power to vote no.

Having blathered on about this, there are still many big reds I love. I'd hate to tell Colin Kay to reduce the alcohol or ripeness in his wines!

Brian

[corcoran]

P.S. I've had the E&C 353 Shiraz '98 five times now and found it wonderfully complex and integrated each time. Great wine for the money IMO.

Brian[/b]