Does a corked cork mean a corked wine?

[Glen G]

Hi All

I was just over at the Robert Joseph site Corkwatch.com and came across this Q&A in the FAQ's:-

Q/ Can you tell a corked wine by looking at — or smelling — the cork?

A/ No, this habit of sommeliers is of little use. Innocent-looking and smelling corks have been drawn from tainted bottles and evil-looking corks from wine that is fine.

........................

I tend to have a different view on this.

I would use the cork to detect faulty bottles most of the time. In fact I can't recall a time when the cork hasn't alerted me to a wine that may be dodgy - with the palate confirming it in those wines that are only subtly corked.

Cheers
Glen

[707]

Glen, you can't tell by looking at the cork of course and when smelling it aren't you really just smelling the tainted wine on the base?

Does the part of the cork without wine smell corked? You might have to cut off the base with wine on it and take the "unwined" cork away to test this out.

I'll do some experimentation when I next get a corky.

[GraemeG]

I think it's more a question of false positives and false negatives. It may be that all shocking-smelling corks have a ruined wine underneath. But that's not the same as saying all ruined wines are under bad corks. I think this is the basis behind saying cork-sniffing is of little value.

If the equation
good-smelling cork ALWAYS = good wine and
bad-smelling cork ALWAYS = bad wine, then fair enough. But because I don't believe this double equation is true, I pay no attention to the cork.

Sometimes if I'm a bit dubious about the wine I might come back and sniff the cork - rarely under these circumstances does the cork smell attractive.

But I don't drink cork - I drink wine. So that's what I pay attention to.

cheers,
Graeme

[ChrisH]

Glen

Adding to these comments, it can be an early indication that the wine is corked. However it is not foolproof - I have encountered corks that smell seemingly okay but the wine has benn grossly corked.

regards
Chris

[Glen G]

I guess my point is that I always smell the cork first, so as not to risk contaminating my glass with contaminated wine, especially when I am at a restaurant, and also at home.

The cork is not the only test I will conduct on the wine, but is usually the first, and frequently the only test that I need to as far as corked wine is concerned.

I have never had a corked cork where the wine was ok, or a corked wine where the cork was ok (how is this possible? afterall the TCA comes from the cork!).

Steve wrote

when smelling it aren't you really just smelling the tainted wine on the base?

Does the part of the cork without wine smell corked? You might have to cut off the base with wine on it and take the "unwined" cork away to test this out.

Visual clues on the cork are possible indications that the cork may be faulty, albeit for oxidation rather than TCA, and is nonetheless important as the first basis of assessment for any wine. (I for one, will happily take all clues concerning a wines health, development etc into consideration).

Does anybody actually taste the wine after they have smelt TCA on the cork?

Graeme wrote:

But because I don't believe this double equation is true, I pay no attention to the cork.
Sometimes if I'm a bit dubious about the wine I might come back and sniff the cork - rarely under these circumstances does the cork smell attractive.

Why smell the cork after the wine? Isn't this like closing the gate after the flock has fled.

But I don't drink cork - I drink wine. So that's what I pay attention to

The problem with this is that you can end up with a TCA affected glass/palate at the beginning of a tasting - I hate that!

Why not use the cork to alert you to the possibility of TCA beforehand?

Cheers
Glen

[Daryl Douglas]

I guess my point is that I always smell the cork first, so as not to risk contaminating my glass with contaminated wine, especially when I am at a restaurant, and also at home.

The cork is not the only test I will conduct on the wine, but is usually the first, and frequently the only test that I need to as far as corked wine is concerned.

I have never had a corked cork where the wine was ok, or a corked wine where the cork was ok (how is this possible? afterall the TCA comes from the cork!).

Steve wrote

when smelling it aren't you really just smelling the tainted wine on the base?

Does the part of the cork without wine smell corked? You might have to cut off the base with wine on it and take the "unwined" cork away to test this out.

Visual clues on the cork are possible indications that the cork may be faulty, albeit for oxidation rather than TCA, and is nonetheless important as the first basis of assessment for any wine. (I for one, will happily take all clues concerning a wines health, development etc into consideration).

Does anybody actually taste the wine after they have smelt TCA on the cork?

Graeme wrote:

But because I don't believe this double equation is true, I pay no attention to the cork.
Sometimes if I'm a bit dubious about the wine I might come back and sniff the cork - rarely under these circumstances does the cork smell attractive.

Why smell the cork after the wine? Isn't this like closing the gate after the flock has fled.

But I don't drink cork - I drink wine. So that's what I pay attention to

The problem with this is that you can end up with a TCA affected glass/palate at the beginning of a tasting - I hate that!

Why not use the cork to alert you to the possibility of TCA beforehand?

Cheers
Glen

Hi Glen

Screwcaps will rule and we'll all be able to concentrate even more on the bottles' contents. Though undoubtably there'll be more opprtunities to look for winemaking faults and differences between bottlings. That'll be even more fun than seeking out stinky corks!! We'll be able to bring out the magnifying glass to inspect the cap, the smallest mark becoming an indicator of a possibly oxidised wine. Pristine and unsullied aluminium, preferably lovingly polished to a high sheen - beautiful!!

Cheers

daz

[Davo]

Hi Glen

Screwcaps will rule and we'll all be able to concentrate even more on the bottles' contents. Though undoubtably there'll be more opprtunities to look for winemaking faults and differences between bottlings. That'll be even more fun than seeking out stinky corks!! We'll be able to bring out the magnifying glass to inspect the cap, the smallest mark becoming an indicator of a possibly oxidised wine. Pristine and unsullied aluminium, preferably lovingly polished to a high sheen - beautiful!!

Cheers

daz

I guess then you will have to be careful in case you cut your nose on the sharp aluminium cap's edge.

[Daryl Douglas]

Hi Glen

Screwcaps will rule and we'll all be able to concentrate even more on the bottles' contents. Though undoubtably there'll be more opprtunities to look for winemaking faults and differences between bottlings. That'll be even more fun than seeking out stinky corks!! We'll be able to bring out the magnifying glass to inspect the cap, the smallest mark becoming an indicator of a possibly oxidised wine. Pristine and unsullied aluminium, preferably lovingly polished to a high sheen - beautiful!!

Cheers

daz

I guess then you will have to be careful in case you cut your nose on the sharp aluminium cap's edge.

Only if you can't break the cork-smelling habit Davo I prefer to smell the wine in the bottle before even pouring a glass And no, my nose isn't a snorkel

daz

[guest]

TCA is not found only in cork.
This bacteria can (and has )been found in the winery, bottling lines, air conditioning/cooling system's. Cork is a major player but not the only culprit.
Stelvin enclosed wine can be affected by TCA. [/u]

[Daryl Douglas]

TCA is not found only in cork.
This bacteria can (and has )been found in the winery, bottling lines, air conditioning/cooling system's. Cork is a major player but not the only culprit.
Stelvin enclosed wine can be affected by TCA. [/u]

That's interesting, but what are the other culprits that aren't part of the wine-bottling process? It seems obvious wineries using/having used TCA affected corks could have this problem.

daz

[Guest]

TCA is not found only in cork.
This bacteria can (and has )been found in the winery, bottling lines, air conditioning/cooling system's. Cork is a major player but not the only culprit.
Stelvin enclosed wine can be affected by TCA. [/u]

Yet to have a stelvin closed wine with TCA though.......

[GraemeG]

I guess my point is that I always smell the cork first, so as not to risk contaminating my glass with contaminated wine, especially when I am at a restaurant, and also at home.

Well, this perhaps might be an issue if there is limited glassware. And I do recall one occasion when I poured a corked Wynns into a decanter, discovered the problem, then discarded the decanter in order to pour a substitute wine. A more sensible policy when serving anumber of wines might be to keep an ISO handy for the initial assessment before filling any decanters.

The cork is not the only test I will conduct on the wine, but is usually the first, and frequently the only test that I need to as far as corked wine is concerned.

You mean you'd be prepared to call the wine OK or otherwise solely on the basis of a sniff of the cork? (I'm talking TCA only, of course)

I have never had a corked cork where the wine was ok, or a corked wine where the cork was ok (how is this possible? afterall the TCA comes from the cork!).

Sniffing the cork is therefore 100% accurate in all cases? No false positives or negatives? So how come above you said it's not the only test you will conduct on the wine?

Visual clues on the cork are possible indications that the cork may be faulty, albeit for oxidation rather than TCA, and is nonetheless important as the first basis of assessment for any wine. (I for one, will happily take all clues concerning a wines health, development etc into consideration).

Does anybody actually taste the wine after they have smelt TCA on the cork?

Yes I pay attention to the cork in a general sense - for the reasons you mention. But I use sniffing the wine as my guide. Are you suggesting/confessing that if you smell TCA on the cork you go no further? Don't even pour the wine? Don't sniff it?

Graeme wrote:

But because I don't believe this double equation is true, I pay no attention to the cork.
Sometimes if I'm a bit dubious about the wine I might come back and sniff the cork - rarely under these circumstances does the cork smell attractive.

Why smell the cork after the wine? Isn't this like closing the gate after the flock has fled.

Well, the wine's still sitting there in front of me. It hasn't gone anywhere. OK, I've dirtied a glass. But where a wine is perhaps marginally tainted I might sniff the cork, in an attempt to confirm my suspicions about the wine in front of me. This usually is a waste of time, because it just smells of cork. Anyway, let it sit in the glass for 3 minutes - it'll become obvious.

But I don't drink cork - I drink wine. So that's what I pay attention to

The problem with this is that you can end up with a TCA affected glass/palate at the beginning of a tasting - I hate that!

Perhaps I wasn't quite clear - if it's corked (by my sniffing assessment of the wine) I don't drink it. I don't wash TCA-ed wine across my palate! A glass is dirty, yes. But again, I ask - Are you prepared to call a wine corked on the basis of cork-sniffing alone? Not even pour it to check?

Why not use the cork to alert you to the possibility of TCA beforehand?

Don't need an alert! Sadly, every time I pull a cork from a bottle, the very first thing I am sniffing the wine for is traces of TCA. It's my silent prayer as the corkscrew burrows; "Don't be corked, don't be corked, don't be corked"!


Cheers
Graeme

[Glen G]

We'll be able to bring out the magnifying glass to inspect the cap, the smallest mark becoming an indicator of a possibly oxidised wine. Pristine and unsullied aluminium, preferably lovingly polished to a high sheen - beautiful!!

Careful Daz, people may think you are wispering sweet nothings into Murray Almonds' ear

TCA is not found only in cork.
This bacteria can (and has) been found in the winery, bottling lines, air conditioning/cooling system's. Cork is a major player but not the only culprit.
Stelvin enclosed wine can be affected by TCA.

Guest, this is absolutely correct, however if the source of the taint was anything other than cork, we would hope and expect the winemaker to detect this before the bottling, or at the very least, before sale and distribution.

You mean you'd be prepared to call the wine OK or otherwise solely on the basis of a sniff of the cork? (I'm talking TCA only, of course)

No, I wouldn't be prepared to call the wine OK, however I would be prepared to declare the wine TCA free so far.
I would be surprised if the wine smelt corked after smelling an uncorked cork.
If it was corked (on the palate), then I would detect this after pouring the wine.

Sniffing the cork is therefore 100% accurate in all cases? No false positives or negatives? So how come above you said it's not the only test you will conduct on the wine?

Has been for me, hence your equations hold true in my experience. I used to always go further and check the wine too, but after several years of the cork always being right, I now see no need to go further. It dirties my glass and wastes my time. More importantly it taints my palate for future wines.
Other tests I could conduct would be for several other possible faults, and general assessment of the wine, while also looking for the possibility of low level TCA on the palate just in case.

Are you suggesting/confessing that if you smell TCA on the cork you go no further? Don't even pour the wine? Don't sniff it?

If its a great wine and the TCA is faint, I have sometimes poured it hoping like hell that I am wrong...hoping that I am mixing TCA up with the basic corky smell of a cork, but alas not to any benefit I can recall.
In fact this exercise inevitably leads to cussing as I clean out my glass and rinse my mouth, all along knowing better than to have hoped for the unlikely.

But again, I ask - Are you prepared to call a wine corked on the basis of cork-sniffing alone? Not even pour it to check?

In obvious TCA affected corks - Yes!

Cheers
Glen

[SueNZ]

TCA is not found only in cork.
This bacteria can (and has )been found in the winery, bottling lines, air conditioning/cooling system's. Cork is a major player but not the only culprit.
Stelvin enclosed wine can be affected by TCA. [/u]

Yes, I had a corked wine under screwcap the other day. A second bottle was opened and it was just as disgusting.

[MartinE]

TCA is not found only in cork.
This bacteria can (and has )been found in the winery, bottling lines, air conditioning/cooling system's. Cork is a major player but not the only culprit.
Stelvin enclosed wine can be affected by TCA. [/u]

Yes, I had a corked wine under screwcap the other day. A second bottle was opened and it was just as disgusting.

Hi Sue,

It's sorta like a bad dream after all the effort to promote stelvins, eh??

I rang Stephen George at Ashton Hills about 12 months ago to ask him whether he wanted me to return a corked bottle of Chardie and he was tearing his hair out over finding a corked large barrell !

MartinE

[Guest]

TCA is not found only in cork.
This bacteria can (and has )been found in the winery, bottling lines, air conditioning/cooling system's. Cork is a major player but not the only culprit.
Stelvin enclosed wine can be affected by TCA. [/u]

Yes, I had a corked wine under screwcap the other day. A second bottle was opened and it was just as disgusting.

Hi Sue,

It's sorta like a bad dream after all the effort to promote stelvins, eh??

I rang Stephen George at Ashton Hills about 12 months ago to ask him whether he wanted me to return a corked bottle of Chardie and he was tearing his hair out over finding a corked large barrell !

MartinE

I've never researched info on TCA but it sounds as though oak can carry this little nasty as well as cork, both being trees. I can imagine that a bottling plant handling large volumes of corks would be vulnerable to infection and through some unfortunate incident, the infection being spread to a barrel.

But what other sources of TCA are there?

daz