Hi all,
Just a small research project on my part....
What does the term "savoury" mean to you when you read it as a descriptor in a tasting note? Or if you like,what individual qualities in a wine would lead you to describe it as "savoury"?
I was just thinking that it is a much used term these days, but quite general and all -encompassing; I imagine it will mean different things to many people.
Many Thanks
Grant
Savoury
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Grant Dodd
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Gavin Trott
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Good question Grant, I was speaking about this last night while enjoying the
2002 Turkey Flat Grenache
it had the usual generous ripe fruit core, yet the finish was decidedly 'savoury'. I've noticed that also in some maker's wine style, notably the Cascabel wines.
I think it is, at least in part, a factor of the tannins ised and tannin structure. The Turkey Flat certainly moves from all that delicious fruit into a long and 'savoury' finish.
Just some initial thoughts.
How about posting your question again in 'Meet Your Maker' and see what our wine maker Matt Wenk thinks? Should be interesting.
2002 Turkey Flat Grenache
it had the usual generous ripe fruit core, yet the finish was decidedly 'savoury'. I've noticed that also in some maker's wine style, notably the Cascabel wines.
I think it is, at least in part, a factor of the tannins ised and tannin structure. The Turkey Flat certainly moves from all that delicious fruit into a long and 'savoury' finish.
Just some initial thoughts.
How about posting your question again in 'Meet Your Maker' and see what our wine maker Matt Wenk thinks? Should be interesting.
regards
Gavin Trott
Gavin Trott
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Grant Dodd
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Gavin Trott
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Grant Dodd wrote:Gavin,
Yes, but what made you think "savoury"? Is it a meaty nuance? Herbal? Spice? What sort of spice? You see where I'm coming from? Just trying to get to the bottom of the descriptor, rather than the generality of the word.
Cheers
heck
Its partially a texture, just like sweet, sour, acid cut etc are feelings in the mouth more than real 'flavours'.
Its not meaty like some CNP wines can be.
Its not spice
Herbal I think is usually? in the aroma.
Well, there you go, I'm strong in what its not, not so good in decscribing what it is though!
Still thinking.
regards
Gavin Trott
Gavin Trott
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Gavin Trott
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GraemeG wrote:When I use the word it tends to mean 'ripe but not obviously fruit-sweet on the palate.' It's a bit like arguing that 'sweet' has two opposites - sour and savoury. Maybe I use it to describe the way a wine isn't, rather than the way it is.
I know. Doesn't make sense to me either!
cheers,
Graeme
Graeme
I think we agree, we both know what we're talking about, but don't know what we're saying. (or how to say it)
regards
Gavin Trott
Gavin Trott
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Gary W
Righto
If you understand a sweet nose then surely it is not quantum leap to understand savoury.
Herbs - Sage and Thyme, ---- I would call herbal.
Savoury can be - black olive, tobacco, leather, earth, meaty toasty oak, - all savoury i.e. not specifially fruit, floral,vegetable, spices
Well for me anyway.
GW
If you understand a sweet nose then surely it is not quantum leap to understand savoury.
Herbs - Sage and Thyme, ---- I would call herbal.
Savoury can be - black olive, tobacco, leather, earth, meaty toasty oak, - all savoury i.e. not specifially fruit, floral,vegetable, spices
Well for me anyway.
GW
Agree with GraemeG, and most of what GaryW says except for the references to "tobacco" and "earth". I see these on their own as opposed to being savoury.
I think (in my own mind) that a wine can be savoury fruit driven as opposed to sweet fruit driven, then herbs, tobacco, earth, etc., etc. are complexities on top of the fruit.
Adair
I think (in my own mind) that a wine can be savoury fruit driven as opposed to sweet fruit driven, then herbs, tobacco, earth, etc., etc. are complexities on top of the fruit.
Adair
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Daryl Douglas
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Gavin Trott wrote:Good question Grant, I was speaking about this last night while enjoying the
2002 Turkey Flat Grenache
it had the usual generous ripe fruit core, yet the finish was decidedly 'savoury'. I've noticed that also in some maker's wine style, notably the Cascabel wines.
I think it is, at least in part, a factor of the tannins ised and tannin structure. The Turkey Flat certainly moves from all that delicious fruit into a long and 'savoury' finish.
Just some initial thoughts.
How about posting your question again in 'Meet Your Maker' and see what our wine maker Matt Wenk thinks? Should be interesting.
Tried a bottle of TF greenash the other night too. Just after opening, found the alcohol level overpowering on the nose and palate, with a hot finish. Some hours later towards the end of the bottle it was much more enjoyable, the fruit more apparent on the palate. The savouriness for me were some bacon/black olive characters. Next bottle won't be opened for a while.
daz
Hi Grant et al
Interestingly enough I have just spent this last week working with a sensory analyst from Finland in translating the Essential Wine Tasting Guide into Finnish, and the term savoury has proven the most difficult descriptor to translate due to no direct / incorrect translation, which in turn made us contemplate very hard exactly what this term defined.
In Finnish, savoury was (quote from Mika Vanne, Sensory Analyst, Finland)
To cut a long story short, the end conclusion was that Savoury is best described (as an aroma as opposed to a taste sensation), as a meaty protein derived aroma, usually with connotations of saltiness.
The word we ended up having to use was Umami (even though this is mostly a tactile sensation).
Other words contemplated were Salty, Animal & Protein. These terms were eventually discarded due to these terms as major sub-headings not suiting specific descriptors eg: Soy, Oyster, Vegemite.
Just as a reminder, the terms used on the Essential Wine Tasting Guide under Savoury are:
Bacon
Feral
Gamey
Leather
Meaty
Musk
Oyster
Salami
Soy
Vegemite
Other descriptors not mentioned here are also applicable
A few more points:-
Gary W wrote
Exactly
Black olive technically comes under the sub-heading Tree Fruit, although you could be forgiven for placing under savoury due to the saltiness of olives and the cuisine that it usually accompanies.
Tobacco under Herbaceous/ Vegetative - Dried
Earth simply under Earthy along with Dusty, Flinty, Mineral Mushroom, Truffle, Undergrowth and others
Toasty and Oak under Woody
Gavin wrote
That would be the salty character eluded to previously, hence Umami.
HINT on aroma recognition:-
When deciphering aromas in wine, it can initially be good practise to first ascertain the overall Wine Aroma Descriptor Group that the aroma belongs to.
The choices consist of:-
- Herbaceous/Vegetative with sub-groups of Fresh, Dried, Canned/Cooked
- Floral
- Fruity with sub-groups of Berry, Citrus, Dried, Tree Fruit, Tropical
- Spice
- Woody
- Earthy
- Microbiological
- Chemical
- Savoury
- Nutty
and then determine the specific aroma within the group.
I hope this all helps a few people.
If you are interested in learning more about the Essential Wine Tasting Guide, please refer to the website below. However if your interest takes you as far as purchasing a copy, please respect the board operator and purchase from Gavin at the Auswine shop.
Interestingly enough I have just spent this last week working with a sensory analyst from Finland in translating the Essential Wine Tasting Guide into Finnish, and the term savoury has proven the most difficult descriptor to translate due to no direct / incorrect translation, which in turn made us contemplate very hard exactly what this term defined.
In Finnish, savoury was (quote from Mika Vanne, Sensory Analyst, Finland)
5. Savoury - Very difficult word to translate. Our Finnish word is 'salty' but that does not work (sweet and salty foods - salty means more not sweet than necessarily salty).
To cut a long story short, the end conclusion was that Savoury is best described (as an aroma as opposed to a taste sensation), as a meaty protein derived aroma, usually with connotations of saltiness.
The word we ended up having to use was Umami (even though this is mostly a tactile sensation).
Other words contemplated were Salty, Animal & Protein. These terms were eventually discarded due to these terms as major sub-headings not suiting specific descriptors eg: Soy, Oyster, Vegemite.
Just as a reminder, the terms used on the Essential Wine Tasting Guide under Savoury are:
Bacon
Feral
Gamey
Leather
Meaty
Musk
Oyster
Salami
Soy
Vegemite
Other descriptors not mentioned here are also applicable
A few more points:-
Gary W wrote
Herbs - Sage and Thyme, ---- I would call herbal.
Exactly
Savoury can be - black olive, tobacco, leather, earth, meaty toasty oak, - all savoury i.e. not specifially fruit, floral,vegetable, spices
Black olive technically comes under the sub-heading Tree Fruit, although you could be forgiven for placing under savoury due to the saltiness of olives and the cuisine that it usually accompanies.
Tobacco under Herbaceous/ Vegetative - Dried
Earth simply under Earthy along with Dusty, Flinty, Mineral Mushroom, Truffle, Undergrowth and others
Toasty and Oak under Woody
Gavin wrote
Its partially a texture, just like sweet, sour, acid cut etc are feelings in the mouth more than real 'flavours'
That would be the salty character eluded to previously, hence Umami.
HINT on aroma recognition:-
When deciphering aromas in wine, it can initially be good practise to first ascertain the overall Wine Aroma Descriptor Group that the aroma belongs to.
The choices consist of:-
- Herbaceous/Vegetative with sub-groups of Fresh, Dried, Canned/Cooked
- Floral
- Fruity with sub-groups of Berry, Citrus, Dried, Tree Fruit, Tropical
- Spice
- Woody
- Earthy
- Microbiological
- Chemical
- Savoury
- Nutty
and then determine the specific aroma within the group.
I hope this all helps a few people.
If you are interested in learning more about the Essential Wine Tasting Guide, please refer to the website below. However if your interest takes you as far as purchasing a copy, please respect the board operator and purchase from Gavin at the Auswine shop.
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Grant Dodd
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Gary W
Glen wrote:
Black olive technically comes under the sub-heading Tree Fruit, although you could be forgiven for placing under savoury due to the saltiness of olives and the cuisine that it usually accompanies.
Puh! Tree fruit! Like Oranges? Puh! Black Olive is savoury...semantics.
I said meaty toasty oak (not Toasty and Oak) - i.e.salami and smallgoods.
Thing is - savoury is an overall impression - I think most people know what it means to calls something savoury. I think a truffle, mushroom and black olive risotto would be considered savoury smelling as opposed to just an earthy tree fruit smell.....
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Guest
Sean wrote
I am saying that the terms I have used, and the context in which I have used these, refer to the aromatics associated with the term savoury, and not the tactile sensations encountered with savoury ie: salty.
Given that the difference between aroma and flavour is simply where the volatilised molecules are received by our senses, nasally or retro-nasally, then I have used smell and flavour synonymously.
However you may be meaning tactility when you say flavour.
.....................
Generally speaking, if you said that savoury was everything that is not sweet, then from a wine tasters perspective (and if that was the case), the term savoury would become almost a meaningless term used to describe everything 'not sweet'.
Tactile - not sweet
Alone and by default, this would include water (or for arguments sake - a dry Clare valley riesling) - but I am sure no one here usually refers to water or Clare valley riesling as savoury. Therefore we need to say what it IS, rather than what it ISN'T. Hence,
Tactile - Salty
..........
As for aromas, these cannot be salty nor sweet (only through perceivable association), therefore we must look at what makes an aroma Savoury.
Savoury Aroma - in isolation or by perceivable association, this could include aromas of proteinaceous foods, florals, herbs, earthy characters, spices, chemical aromas (eg: petroleum, tar, iodine) etc. But which of these terms fulfil the 1st pre-requisite of tactility (saltiness)? Only certain proteinacous foods!
In summary, I believe the defination of Savoury as it relates to wine tasting has two pre-requisites as descibed above, which work mutually inclusively ie: it must be salty and have aromas of proteinacous foods.
Perhaps in a broader sense when relating to solid food, the term can be used more generically, however that would be for someone else to define.
Cheers
Glen [/quote]
Are you saying "savoury" is an aroma, not a flavour? Why not both?
I am saying that the terms I have used, and the context in which I have used these, refer to the aromatics associated with the term savoury, and not the tactile sensations encountered with savoury ie: salty.
Given that the difference between aroma and flavour is simply where the volatilised molecules are received by our senses, nasally or retro-nasally, then I have used smell and flavour synonymously.
However you may be meaning tactility when you say flavour.
.....................
Generally speaking, if you said that savoury was everything that is not sweet, then from a wine tasters perspective (and if that was the case), the term savoury would become almost a meaningless term used to describe everything 'not sweet'.
Tactile - not sweet
Alone and by default, this would include water (or for arguments sake - a dry Clare valley riesling) - but I am sure no one here usually refers to water or Clare valley riesling as savoury. Therefore we need to say what it IS, rather than what it ISN'T. Hence,
Tactile - Salty
..........
As for aromas, these cannot be salty nor sweet (only through perceivable association), therefore we must look at what makes an aroma Savoury.
Savoury Aroma - in isolation or by perceivable association, this could include aromas of proteinaceous foods, florals, herbs, earthy characters, spices, chemical aromas (eg: petroleum, tar, iodine) etc. But which of these terms fulfil the 1st pre-requisite of tactility (saltiness)? Only certain proteinacous foods!
In summary, I believe the defination of Savoury as it relates to wine tasting has two pre-requisites as descibed above, which work mutually inclusively ie: it must be salty and have aromas of proteinacous foods.
Perhaps in a broader sense when relating to solid food, the term can be used more generically, however that would be for someone else to define.
Cheers
Glen [/quote]
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Guest
On second thought, Glen usually does sound like he is making sense when one of us is pi*sed. -
Guest
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Glen G
Sean
Funnily enough, the last sentence that I had tagged onto my last post was:-
This is giving me a headache!
(but chose not to include it in the post afterall).
One last addition after further thought, is that for a substance to be described as savoury requires ingestion. This in turn negates the possibility of substances like Iodine, Tar etc to be described as savoury since they are not ingested.
Mr Einstein, could you please refrain from throwing logic into these discussions, I find they distort my line of thinking 
Cheers for now
Glen
Funnily enough, the last sentence that I had tagged onto my last post was:-
This is giving me a headache!
(but chose not to include it in the post afterall).
One last addition after further thought, is that for a substance to be described as savoury requires ingestion. This in turn negates the possibility of substances like Iodine, Tar etc to be described as savoury since they are not ingested.
Mr Einstein, could you please refrain from throwing logic into these discussions, I find they distort my line of thinking
Cheers for now
Glen
Glen G wrote:This is giving me a headache!
Mr Green,
You should talk! Your above "words of wisdom"
have cause me a major bloody headache! In Chapter Seven of the Tour Diary I have had to change 2135 uses of the word "savoury" to "off-sweet"! 