I know entire volumes have been said about this, but I feel compelled to bring this up again...
Dinner out in the city. Good wine list, but goodness, the mark-ups! Again, I think it is outrageous to charge a percentage mark-up for wines, so that a $100 bottle at retail sells at $300-400! I don't get it. Yes, storing wine costs money, and serving wine in good glassware, with good service should come with a price, but hundreds of dollars??? Take for example the 1996 Howard Pard Cab Merlot I recently had. $300 on wine list. Under 100 at auction, probably 50 on release (and this is being very generous). Now, take storage fees and insurance- about $4-5 per bottle per year (again very generous). That is at most $75. Thus, cost to restaurant is $125 at most. You can't tell me that glassware and the sommelier service cost that other $175- That is a monster PROFIT in my opinion.
So why is this wrong? Well, we go to restaurants to eat food right? Why then should wine drinkers (especially those who prefer "finer" wines) pay these huge mark ups to "subsidise" other diners? Surely a standard $ mark up per bottle is fairer to account for service, etc, and perhaps an additional premium for older wines, due to storage, but the mark ups seen currently are obscene!
For dinner and drinks, wifey and I tallied $545 in total, and of that, $360 was due to drinks (alcoholic, thus excluding water and coffee). At the end of the night, I tipped $25, which is about average for good service in sydney (>12.5%), based on the food only ($185). I wrote on the bill that my tip was just on the food, and at the door, I was questioned if there was anything wrong with the wine service, and why I didn't tip more. I simply stated that I thought it outrageous that I was already paying about $200 more than I should have for the drinks, and if the wait staff wanted any additional tip from that portion, they can ask their owner.
Anyways, I'm not sure how this went down, but I would encourage all of you to do the same, and actually tell the wait staff/sommelier, or (passive-aggressively) write it on the bill like I did, as it certainly made them take notice, and if enough of us do it, perhaps we might see more reasonable wine pricing...
Rant over, OK, let me have it...
Monghead.
Restaurant mark ups
Re: Restaurant mark ups
I had some very similar thoughts at an exclusive restaurant in Canberra on Wednesday night - the difference being I took 4 great bottles of wine and gladly paid $60 corkage for the lot. The food bill for 6 people was $447 (3 brilliant avant garde courses each, including bread, complimentary hors d'ouvres and sparkling water) and the Riedel glassware (new glass for every wine!) and excellent service helped make the night even more memorable. May I suggest to everyone that restaurants like this deserve your patronage. I point blank refuse to patronise or promote restaurants that don't allow you to bring your own wine. Corkage is surely a fair and reasonable compromise for the restaurant to recoup some of their loss of income. Working on Mong's formula above, I would have paid a total of about $1500 for the 4 bottles of wine I took to the restaurant this week!
Cheers,
David
David
-
KMP
- Posts: 1246
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:02 am
- Location: Expat, now in San Diego, California
- Contact:
Re: Restaurant mark ups
Here is San Diego you can strike the same sort of problem but fortunately not very often. More often you find a good deal. It was restaurant week this week where prices are $20-40/3 courses to attract new customers. At The Wine Vault we paid $20 for the 3 plates (admittedly small) and $5 for a 5oz pour for each plate (total for food and wine $35+20% tip and tax) plus we could buy the wines at their retail prices which are very competitive to take home or $10 per bottle for corkage with a $20 corkage fee for your own wine. They do lots of wine dinners during the year and seem to be doing very well.
These days if we eat at an upscale restaurant I usually take the wine and just pay corkage. Gone are the days when I used to look at the list to find something interesting. I have too many interesting wines sitting at home.
The worst experience for me with wine prices is on cruises. Its not uncommon to see a 4X markup from retail and going down into Mexico means that the cruise lines set their prices to be the cost in Mexican wine shops where wine is heavily taxed plus their corkage fee which means there is little point buying wine onshore if you want to buy wine for dinner. So the same cruise line will charge about 2x more if you go south into Mexican waters than if you go north along the US coast. I take my own wines and pay the corkage which is only about $15-20.
Mike
These days if we eat at an upscale restaurant I usually take the wine and just pay corkage. Gone are the days when I used to look at the list to find something interesting. I have too many interesting wines sitting at home.
The worst experience for me with wine prices is on cruises. Its not uncommon to see a 4X markup from retail and going down into Mexico means that the cruise lines set their prices to be the cost in Mexican wine shops where wine is heavily taxed plus their corkage fee which means there is little point buying wine onshore if you want to buy wine for dinner. So the same cruise line will charge about 2x more if you go south into Mexican waters than if you go north along the US coast. I take my own wines and pay the corkage which is only about $15-20.
Mike
Re: Restaurant mark ups
Generally I agree with your sentiments and would much rather take my own wine and pay the $10-20 corkage fee if possible. I went to a posh restaurant in Sydney a couple of years ago and over the course of the meal sent back a 1994 Hardy Thomas Hardy and a 1996 Bin 389 - one corked and the other oxidised. Restaurants that have mature wine lists sourced through auction purchases would often take these losses on the chin and add to their outlays.
If you can remember what a wine is like the next day you didn't drink enough of it
Peynaud
Peynaud
Re: Restaurant mark ups
Same sentiments as above from me. I woudl much prefer to take my own wine and pay healthy corkage than pay exorbitant markups on restaurant lists. I like to see good restaurants stay in business, but not by chargins $400 for a $100 bottle of wine!
There have been occasions where the situation has meant I have had to buy from restaurant lists. There is a corporate rule of thumb that for a lunch, the food and alcohol bill should be about equal. I had lunch with a wine drinking mate (not on company time) a little while ago where the alcohol bill was 5 times the food bill. I guess we shoudl have eaten more food...
I also object to wine degustations at high end restaurants (that shoudl accompany the food degustation) where the wine choices are rubbish.
But to balance this with some positive notes - I've been shocked at the poor quality of wine dego's but I've also been stunned at some very thoughtful ones - kudos to Urbane in Brisbane for an excellent, imaginative set of wines to match Alejandro Cancino's food.
I also dont mind paying a premium for something that is genuinely rare and interesting. Enoteca 1889 in Bris certainly has that quality about its wine list, with lots of unusual Italian offerings. Loved my last experience there.
Cheers
Andrew
There have been occasions where the situation has meant I have had to buy from restaurant lists. There is a corporate rule of thumb that for a lunch, the food and alcohol bill should be about equal. I had lunch with a wine drinking mate (not on company time) a little while ago where the alcohol bill was 5 times the food bill. I guess we shoudl have eaten more food...
I also object to wine degustations at high end restaurants (that shoudl accompany the food degustation) where the wine choices are rubbish.
But to balance this with some positive notes - I've been shocked at the poor quality of wine dego's but I've also been stunned at some very thoughtful ones - kudos to Urbane in Brisbane for an excellent, imaginative set of wines to match Alejandro Cancino's food.
I also dont mind paying a premium for something that is genuinely rare and interesting. Enoteca 1889 in Bris certainly has that quality about its wine list, with lots of unusual Italian offerings. Loved my last experience there.
Cheers
Andrew
Re: Restaurant mark ups
4 x retail is pretty ridiculous...but it is so much harder to judge on harder to find wines..but then again 100 at auction is not retail...Stored properly and from a store, that might be quite a bit higher (and in some cases, quite a bit lower).
Wine pairings with degustation...I try to look and see what is coming first but I tend to do it (unless it is a repeat visit in which case I may not). Some pairings are good, some are ok..but generally they'll have something different. I think the best pairing I've had was at Sepia...The wine wasn't very expensive but well thought out and they were all good value...
Wine pairings with degustation...I try to look and see what is coming first but I tend to do it (unless it is a repeat visit in which case I may not). Some pairings are good, some are ok..but generally they'll have something different. I think the best pairing I've had was at Sepia...The wine wasn't very expensive but well thought out and they were all good value...
Last edited by Polymer on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Restaurant mark ups
Oh dear. I worry about every coming back to Sydney. Not sure I can afford these prices! At least one can BYO back home. A rare option over here unfortunately.
Bartenders are supposed to have people skills. Or was it people are supposed to have bartending skills?
Re: Restaurant mark ups
Having been on both sides of restaurants as a customer
And an owner I see both arguments.
4x markup on retail is both ridiculous and blatently ripping
Off the customer......who you want back!!
3 times mark up, while becoming more of 'the norm' these days
Is still too much in my opinion, but in limited circumstances is ok.
Mainly for rare & hard to get wines or wines at auction where
I can't send back to the distributor for a credit on faulty wines.
I have always worked off 2 - 2.5 times markup on retail,
With the theory of sell more at lower profit than sell little at
Massive profit. You want the customer to be happy, have a
Great time, not feel ripped off, and most importantly talk
Positively to their friends/blogs/social networks about their experience.
Nothing kills a restaurant faster than bad press.
Interestingly our own government expects restaurants to charge
a minimum 2.8x markup on their goods cost, or risk an audit or
Review by being out of their bencmarks.
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... p=&st=&cy=
And an owner I see both arguments.
4x markup on retail is both ridiculous and blatently ripping
Off the customer......who you want back!!
3 times mark up, while becoming more of 'the norm' these days
Is still too much in my opinion, but in limited circumstances is ok.
Mainly for rare & hard to get wines or wines at auction where
I can't send back to the distributor for a credit on faulty wines.
I have always worked off 2 - 2.5 times markup on retail,
With the theory of sell more at lower profit than sell little at
Massive profit. You want the customer to be happy, have a
Great time, not feel ripped off, and most importantly talk
Positively to their friends/blogs/social networks about their experience.
Nothing kills a restaurant faster than bad press.
Interestingly our own government expects restaurants to charge
a minimum 2.8x markup on their goods cost, or risk an audit or
Review by being out of their bencmarks.
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/conten ... p=&st=&cy=
Re: Restaurant mark ups
You would think they're buying it wholesale though right? So 30-40% of RRP? At 70% of RRP they can do 2xRRP and be more than 2.8 times cost..
I always thought a lot of places did some sort of % markup + X. So something like 2xRRP+20. The markup being a standard margin + cost of glassware and service (which is the same for each bottle).
What amazes me is when some of these places, especially higher end ones, just go nuts with their pricing...Is it really that risky to have wine? To me it seems like one of the few things in a restaurant that has an extremely long shelf life and one you can get a good portion of your money back if the business goes belly up. And for major disasters like the place burning down you have insurance. I don't know all the details behind running a restaurant so I'm sure there is plenty of detail I'm not aware of but there are some high end ones with ridiculous pricing and some high end ones with very reasonable mark ups but I'm not sure why there is that difference..
I always thought a lot of places did some sort of % markup + X. So something like 2xRRP+20. The markup being a standard margin + cost of glassware and service (which is the same for each bottle).
What amazes me is when some of these places, especially higher end ones, just go nuts with their pricing...Is it really that risky to have wine? To me it seems like one of the few things in a restaurant that has an extremely long shelf life and one you can get a good portion of your money back if the business goes belly up. And for major disasters like the place burning down you have insurance. I don't know all the details behind running a restaurant so I'm sure there is plenty of detail I'm not aware of but there are some high end ones with ridiculous pricing and some high end ones with very reasonable mark ups but I'm not sure why there is that difference..
Re: Restaurant mark ups
If the wine is available at either of dans or first choice, no chance wholesale
is 30-40% of retail. In some limited circumstances I can't buy it cheaper
Than they sell it for.....makes the wine reps go bright red when it happens.
Its at a point that before placing an order we have to price check every time now.
The above makes creating a wine list quite difficult sometimes. If you have a list
Where you specifically target brands not available at large retail chains, then you
Run the risk of customers not buying much wine, because unlike a lot
Of people on here, most people aren't adventurous and only buy what they know.
This then falls on the owners to train their staff correctly, as the majority of
Restaurants can't afford a sommelier.....problem compounded
Even more if an owner isn't interested in wine....and they are out there!
Then if you create a list that is readily available at a retail store,
You run the risk of people being upset at your markup. Believe it or
Not, some people even complain at 2x retail markup!
Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
is 30-40% of retail. In some limited circumstances I can't buy it cheaper
Than they sell it for.....makes the wine reps go bright red when it happens.
Its at a point that before placing an order we have to price check every time now.
The above makes creating a wine list quite difficult sometimes. If you have a list
Where you specifically target brands not available at large retail chains, then you
Run the risk of customers not buying much wine, because unlike a lot
Of people on here, most people aren't adventurous and only buy what they know.
This then falls on the owners to train their staff correctly, as the majority of
Restaurants can't afford a sommelier.....problem compounded
Even more if an owner isn't interested in wine....and they are out there!
Then if you create a list that is readily available at a retail store,
You run the risk of people being upset at your markup. Believe it or
Not, some people even complain at 2x retail markup!
Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
Re: Restaurant mark ups
Agree with BYO whenever available, but the restaurants which offer this are decreasing every day. In fact, I would quite happily pay up to $50 per bottle to BYO (at a 3 hatter that is, perhaps $30 at a 2 hatter, and $15-20 for a 1 hatter). Just peruse the list of one, two and three hatted restaurants, and only a handful offer BYO, and with many, you have to really push the "special occasion, special bottle line"- trust me, this gets very tiring- I mean, do I really need to beg to bring my own bottle of wine to consume with food I paid for, where all staff need to do is open it and pour, and at the end of the day, I pay for this "privilege" as well???
As to degustation pairings, agree with what's been said so far- usually OVERPRICED- more so than the bottles on the wine list, and quite often rubbish.
I guess the fundamental gripe I have with most restaurants is that I think they see the wine list as an easy way to cash in on increased profits. A restaurant should stay afloat and prosper based on their food, not on their beverage supplementation. If it means charging more for the food, so be it! I do not have the ability (or patience) to toil over a hot stove to prepare a delectable duck wonton in a deliciously rich and ethereal consommé with slivers of juicy fresh shitake mushrooms, abalone, and enoki mushrooms, accented by contrastingly fresh sprigs of baby coriander; but I tell you what, I can go to the cellar, pull out a bottle of wine, open it, decant it, and pour it as good as any sommelier on this planet can!
Monghead.
As to degustation pairings, agree with what's been said so far- usually OVERPRICED- more so than the bottles on the wine list, and quite often rubbish.
I guess the fundamental gripe I have with most restaurants is that I think they see the wine list as an easy way to cash in on increased profits. A restaurant should stay afloat and prosper based on their food, not on their beverage supplementation. If it means charging more for the food, so be it! I do not have the ability (or patience) to toil over a hot stove to prepare a delectable duck wonton in a deliciously rich and ethereal consommé with slivers of juicy fresh shitake mushrooms, abalone, and enoki mushrooms, accented by contrastingly fresh sprigs of baby coriander; but I tell you what, I can go to the cellar, pull out a bottle of wine, open it, decant it, and pour it as good as any sommelier on this planet can!
Monghead.
Re: Restaurant mark ups
Rossco wrote:If the wine is available at either of dans or first choice, no chance wholesale
is 30-40% of retail. In some limited circumstances I can't buy it cheaper
Than they sell it for.....makes the wine reps go bright red when it happens.
Its at a point that before placing an order we have to price check every time now.
The above makes creating a wine list quite difficult sometimes. If you have a list
Where you specifically target brands not available at large retail chains, then you
Run the risk of customers not buying much wine, because unlike a lot
Of people on here, most people aren't adventurous and only buy what they know.
This then falls on the owners to train their staff correctly, as the majority of
Restaurants can't afford a sommelier.....problem compounded
Even more if an owner isn't interested in wine....and they are out there!
Then if you create a list that is readily available at a retail store,
You run the risk of people being upset at your markup. Believe it or
Not, some people even complain at 2x retail markup!
Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
Well by 30-40% off I specifically mean RRP....Or a better way of putting it, whatever their LUC price is. Which I think is generally 30-40% of RRP wholesale...
I can definitely see having that issue where you are balancing between well known labels vs. lesser known...but I guess it would depend on what type of restaurant as well...
For those that want a good pairing..go to Sepia. Very well thought out pairings...very good value wines...I would say it is overpriced for the amount of wine you get and the value of the wine itself... But at the same time there are a few things I would not have tried on my own from regions I might not try (so there is value in that), and also getting a well thought out pairing is a great thing...it wasn't just a generic whatever pairing which is the result many times...Actually in general their wine list is good...even what they have by the glass...
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ticklenow1
- Posts: 1105
- Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:50 pm
- Location: Gold Coast
Re: Restaurant mark ups
Because of the lack of BYO's in my part of the world, a group of friends and I now have more and more dinner parties. Yes it means more effort, but we are really enjoying taking turns and improving our culinary talents at the same time. I'll admit that it is nice to go to a restaurant and try new things and not have to do anything, but I haven't invested a lot of time and money into building my cellar up so we can enjoy nice aged bottles of wine, to pay a small fortune for it at a restaurant. It almost makes it impossible to afford to go to be honest. It really pisses me off when I have to pay 3 times RRP for current vintage wine that is not even decanted. Maybe the fancy places in the capital cities do this but if I ask for a decanter down my way I get a blank look from some pimple faced backpacker.
We did go to a nice new little Italian restaurant near us the other night that had BYO wine (enjoyed a couple of Peroni's first) and really good food. The food wasn't exactly cheap, but it was decent quality, the staff were extremely friendly and the chef came out to make sure we were happy with the meals and a chat. The glassware was acceptable and because of all this we will now go back on a fairly regular basis. To top it off there was no corkage charge! It is nice to sit down at a restaurant and enjoy a nice aged bottle of wine that you haven't had to sell a kidney to afford.
I would have thought that most reasonable restaurants would encourage people to BYO their wine to get them in the door. They will always get people that are happy to buy a bottle of the rack (that I might add in most restaurants in not normally stored in a wine fridge but just on a shelf. In our climate this is unacceptable and I would have thought was part of the reason for high mark ups is the correct storage of said wines). The amount of eateries down our way that don't last 12 months is incredible. They start up and before you know it they are gone. I am no restauranteur, but I would have thought the idea was to get as many people as possible through the door. Like I said above, we've just stopped going to places that don't offer BYO wine. I've no problem buying a few beers (which we always do) and even paying reasonable corkage (like many above have said). But with tightening the belt and all, that's just the way it is. Like I said earlier, we do enjoy going out to lunch or dinner, but we also like to have a nice bottle of wine with it.
My two bob worth.
Cheers
Ian
We did go to a nice new little Italian restaurant near us the other night that had BYO wine (enjoyed a couple of Peroni's first) and really good food. The food wasn't exactly cheap, but it was decent quality, the staff were extremely friendly and the chef came out to make sure we were happy with the meals and a chat. The glassware was acceptable and because of all this we will now go back on a fairly regular basis. To top it off there was no corkage charge! It is nice to sit down at a restaurant and enjoy a nice aged bottle of wine that you haven't had to sell a kidney to afford.
I would have thought that most reasonable restaurants would encourage people to BYO their wine to get them in the door. They will always get people that are happy to buy a bottle of the rack (that I might add in most restaurants in not normally stored in a wine fridge but just on a shelf. In our climate this is unacceptable and I would have thought was part of the reason for high mark ups is the correct storage of said wines). The amount of eateries down our way that don't last 12 months is incredible. They start up and before you know it they are gone. I am no restauranteur, but I would have thought the idea was to get as many people as possible through the door. Like I said above, we've just stopped going to places that don't offer BYO wine. I've no problem buying a few beers (which we always do) and even paying reasonable corkage (like many above have said). But with tightening the belt and all, that's just the way it is. Like I said earlier, we do enjoy going out to lunch or dinner, but we also like to have a nice bottle of wine with it.
My two bob worth.
Cheers
Ian
If you had to choose between drinking great wine or winning Lotto, which would you choose - Red or White?
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Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
Re: Restaurant mark ups
I'd echo almost all the complaints listed here about wine markups at restaurants, especially ticklenow1's comment about not collecting and cellaring wine only to pay exorbitant prices at restaurants. As a result, if we want to drink a bottle of wine, my partner and I virtually never go to restaurants . We'd rather a simply prepared steak or lamb chop on the BBQ at home and a bottle of wine that we've cellared than a young, overpriced wine at a fancy restaurant.
In all my visits to Sydney I've never been tempted to go to a restaurant that wasn't a BYO. Whenever I walk past a good restaurant with their menu and wine list posted at the front it's the wine list and not the menu that I look at. If it's a BYO then I take interest in the menu.
For my partner and I a dinner out in Sydney is usually when we happen to be in the CBD and then it's Chinese, Noodle House, Vietnamese, or a spicy Laksa soup. Wine accompaniment means grilled,roasted, or barbecued food at home, perfect for any good bottle of wine. And the same is true here in Edmonton. I can think of no better dinner than the food we have in our friends' home with wine from our cellar. Anniversary, birthday, and New Year's dinners are either sushi and udon at a Japanese, salt and pepper crab at a Chinese, or Pho at a Vietnamese. And there's nothing wrong with green tea, we can always open bottle of bubbly or a port when we get home.
Simple roasted meats and a fine bottle of wine, easy to prepare at home so there really is no need for a fancy chef and overpriced wines. Time to duck.
Cheers.................Mahmoud
In all my visits to Sydney I've never been tempted to go to a restaurant that wasn't a BYO. Whenever I walk past a good restaurant with their menu and wine list posted at the front it's the wine list and not the menu that I look at. If it's a BYO then I take interest in the menu.
For my partner and I a dinner out in Sydney is usually when we happen to be in the CBD and then it's Chinese, Noodle House, Vietnamese, or a spicy Laksa soup. Wine accompaniment means grilled,roasted, or barbecued food at home, perfect for any good bottle of wine. And the same is true here in Edmonton. I can think of no better dinner than the food we have in our friends' home with wine from our cellar. Anniversary, birthday, and New Year's dinners are either sushi and udon at a Japanese, salt and pepper crab at a Chinese, or Pho at a Vietnamese. And there's nothing wrong with green tea, we can always open bottle of bubbly or a port when we get home.
Simple roasted meats and a fine bottle of wine, easy to prepare at home so there really is no need for a fancy chef and overpriced wines. Time to duck.
Cheers.................Mahmoud