The Auswine Forum

The link came through to a Decanter article

http://www.decanter.com/news/newsdefaul ... oryid=1266

"Australians are too parochial to be interested in American wines, Constellation president Robert Sands has said... Speaking at a conference in Melbourne ... ... 'I don't expect to see US wines developing any particular market share in Australia ...' "

but my question is - are you guys too parochial to drink US wines or has it some to do with the exhange rate that US wines just haven't been available, or those that are available are just too expensive?

Certainly when looking for US wine in NZ, this has been the case for a long time, although some are starting to flow this way now.

Opinions please,

Cheers,
Sue

Hi Sue,

Similar situation here to your scenario. Hardly ever see the stuff. A little appears on the secondary market and the price estimates always look particularly high to me. Difficult to know what a wine is like when you can't try it.

Sue
Cost is certainly a great issue. I've yet to experience good QPR on a bottle of US wine in the UK. Don't get me wrong, there are some good wines around (Ridge/ Au Bon Climat), but the price is high. The cheaper wines I've had to date (5 or 6) have been without exception thin, sweet & sickly. There is too much value in Chile/Australia/Spain/Portugal & even France/Italy at the moment for any great move to US wines.

Maybe the rest of the world is parochial & it's the americans who aren't

Ian

The healthy trade in other imports, particuarly German, Alsacian and Rhone wines in particular shows the flaw in the argument.

The problem with US wine is purely it's lack of price competitiveness for the quality delivered. The premium wines are priced for the US market, once exchange rates and taxes are applied there is very little value for the dollar spent.

The words "US wine" and value are mutually exclusive terms in OZ. Its got nothing to do with being parochial, we drink Italian, French, South African, Chilean etc, all to lesser or greater degrees but just because the Americans are prepared to pay stupid prices for wine doesn't mean that us Oz drinkers are prepared to do so.

Having tried some Napa Cabs, to say they are "expensive" in comparison to Oz cabs is like saying that Bush is a little bit anti Sadam.

recently had a bordeaux style tasting at a guy from uni's place. He is from california.

the two american wines were Simi/ Alexander valley cabernet sauvignon 1999, this wine is about $30 USD from memory and was a good wine without being great particularly when you look at the price.

The 2nd was Eros 1999, Sunstone, Santa Ynez Valley
44% merlot, 34% cab franc, 22% cab Sav again a good wine but not what i would call great.

also on the night had

2001 Rosemount traditional, exceptional young wine under $30 good power and balance

99 Ashbrook cabernet blend, sulfur issues

96 la reserve De leoville barton Saint Julien, excellent balance, enough age to allow the tannin to sneak up on you, without any brickiness or jaminess on the palate. voted wine of the night. about $40. AUS

1997 Glaetzer cabernet/malbec as usual from glaezter excellent wine.

on the night the Saint Julien took honours, followed by the glaetzer, and rosemount, apart from the faulty wine, the american wines lacked something and particularly when you take value for money into account.

Sue,

I have been interested in getting a few Cabs from the west coast. I emailed a couple of the wineries who said they could not ship to Australia, so I thought of getting them shipped to friends in the US to either bring out with them or send over but it just became too much of a hassle.
Price is a bit of a problem, more for the shipping costs than the cost of the wine itself.
Cheers
Popov

Yes, it's largely price and value related, obviously. I think good California zin would be popular if not for the price. Ridge Lytton Springs I saw in a Sydney shop for around $90. This is serious money...

Cheaper wines struggle against their Australian counterparts just for value, although I did once buy a Gallo Copperidge Cabernet which was only $11 or so. Apart from massive amounts of residual sugar, such a wine should do OK wherever Wyndham Bin 555 is selling...

cheers,
Graeme

I am not sure what USA can produce in terms of greatness that Australia can't - and the wines that are of good/great quality are in styles that Australia can produce at a lower cost... hence I am not interested, generally, in US wines. Obviously if a respected wine lover recommends an unique US wine I will be interested but please note, overripeness, high alcohol and/or massive oakage (I know this is not really a word) are of no interest. Does the USA produce any whites that could be considered great except for Chardonnay?

However, as Ric alluded to, Italy, France, Spain, Chile, South Africa and even New Zealand produce wine of interest and uniqueness at prices Australians, and I, are willing to purchase.

Adair

The one reason more US wines aren't drunk is plainly and simply cost. And availability. Two reasons. (ad nauseum as per Monty P)...

Since moving to Japan I have a much larger range of US wines available to me, but often don't purchase due to cost and QPR. Having said that I am largely a fan when I do get to drink them.
Recently I have made friends with a guy from the US who is on many waiting lists, so I've been drinking a fair bit of Flowers, Kistler, Williams Selyem, Brewer Clifton, Melville, etc pinots, and a bunch of cabs and syrahs. I'm finding the quality of wines good to excellent across the board, however some do tend towards excessive sweetness and alcohol.
I've been swapping Oz wines for US wines, and find many of the US wines superb. I wouldn't often fork out directly in cash for them though...

There are some nice ones at the lower end cost wise - Cline make some excellent Mourvedres etc for about 1,400 yen and up, and I have had some reasonable St Supery cabs, and others.

At the end of the day though, I'd say cost.

They are simply too expensive..there is always a cheaper/ better alternative from somewhere else..

I have been keen to try a good Oregon pinot but when i price compare to the best New Zealand or in a few rare occasions Australia has to offer it's a no brainer.Kiwi pinots offer quality per dollar that the Americans cannot.

For any reds (including Zinfandel if you can get your hands on Cape Mentelle's Zin) why would you bother.The rest of the world offers far to much better quality wine at much more affordable prices that the US currently cannot compete.

Much the same for whites.

Fortifieds - forget about it, Rutherglen and Portugal is all i need on that front.

So for me, across all the spectrums it comes down to price versus quality. I know the USA makes some excellent wines..but when the dollar factor comes in they are poor value.

Nothing to do with nationalism, just cost.

Cheers

Paul

Sue

It's not just the case in Oz. Here in the UK many US wine fail to deliver on a quality value basis (with a few exceptions - Ravenswood and Seghesio Zins, Qupe Syrah), hence many seek out alternatives.

Also, the styles of many Californian wines do not strike a chord with me. I struggle to find varietal flavour in many of the Cabernets I've tried and many of the Chardonnays seem overoaked.

I know there are some very good wines and some good value wines produced in the States (Navarro in Mendocino comes to mind) but we tend not to see many of those such labels in this market.

Cheers
Phil

Adair wrote:I am not sure what USA can produce in terms of greatest that Australia can't

cabernet

Does the USA produce any whites that could be considered great except for Chardonnay?

viognier - calera, mt harlan is as good a viognier as any on the planet

Australia cant produce great cabernet..you have to be joking.

ROTFLMAO

Guest was that a joke or are you?

Cheers in fits of laughter..I might even crack a Mount Mary Quintet in your honour.

Paul

On a trip to the US last year i was prety disappointed with the wines i tried, with the exception of a few Oregon Pinots and some Napa Valley merlot. In the lower price rang, most of the wines were prety crap, my friends and i ended up bying Lindemans and Rosemount wines which were better value!!

Paul T wrote:Australia cant produce great cabernet..you have to be joking.

ROTFLMAO

Guest was that a joke or are you?

Cheers in fits of laughter..I might even crack a Mount Mary Quintet in your honour.

Paul

you paid good money for a mount mary quintet? now who is laughing?

I suspect you might be the insular, parochial wine drinker that constellation is talking about.

I think the answer is very easy, Australian wines are beating the U.S. wines to death at both the high and low end. As a U.S. resident, I gave up buying most U.S. wines around 1998 when most of the better wineries found that there was a larger audience than expected for $50+ bottles of wine.

Most of the U.S. value wines I've had of late are an embarassment.

Frankly, I can't understand why it's even taken this long for the U.S. market to start correcting. It's too bad the US dollar is collapsing. A strong dollar might have hastened the demise of the pretenders.

Guest wrote:viognier - calera, mt harlan is as good a viognier as any on the planet

2002 Calera Mt.Harlan Viognier - 15.5% alcohol - 36 US Dollars per bottle!!! ... and a drink now proposition - hahahahahaha The Yalumba Virgilius (Yalumba being a winery that Calera looks to guidance to for their Viognier) only costs 40 Australian dollars.

Seriously though, even if this if a great wine of the world, it is a New World Viognier and 36 US Dollars is totally ridiculous.

Guest wrote:cabernet

Your "cabernet" comment has already been addressed but you obviously have not tried many Yarra Valley(Victoria), Coonawarra(South Australia) and Margaret River (Western Australia) cabernets - furthermore, only a few cost more than your Viognier above!!! (and not much more for that matter)

Adair

Adair wrote:I am not sure what USA can produce in terms of greatest that Australia can't - and the wines that are of good/great quality are in styles that Australia can produce at a lower cost...
Does the USA produce any whites that could be considered great except for Chardonnay?


Adair

Adair,

White Zin!

AlanK wrote:

Adair wrote:I am not sure what USA can produce in terms of greatness that Australia can't - and the wines that are of good/great quality are in styles that Australia can produce at a lower cost...
Does the USA produce any whites that could be considered great except for Chardonnay?


Adair

Adair,

White Zin!

White Zin? Really?

I thought this was a joke wine like unwooded Chardonnay, Australian Verdelho and white shiraz (and most of Australia's Pinot Noir ).

Seriously,
Adair

In my opinion, the USA is producing better cabernets than Australia, they are also producing better chadonnay and pinot, its just that they are far too expensive.

Adair, why do you say calera viognier is drink now proposition? I have found it to be an excellent wine and benefits from a couple of years in the bottle. I dont actually find $36 to be over the top, just think of what you pay for top aussie whites, even grosset polish hill is sneaking up to over 25 USD in australia (obviously depeding on where you get it), this wine comes from a very small vineyard, about 6 acres and was recently annointed one of the finest viogniers ever made in california by RPjr, we all know what happens to australian pricing when that happens.

Adam wrote:In my opinion, the USA is producing better cabernets than Australia, they are also producing better chadonnay and pinot, its just that they are far too expensive.

I have only had a handful of US cabernets and the ones that did impress cost more than what I could buy a bottle of top vintage Mount Mary Quintet, 707, John Riddoch, Yarra Yering, Parker 1st, Cullen, Howard Park or an aged Coldstream Hills Reserve (which I am fond of) - and these ARE great cabernets. Maybe it is my palate but I find that US cabernets are quite ripe, quite oaked and lose their varietial definition. I agree that it might be a combination of my lack of experience as well as my Australian palate, but to the comdemnation of US producers, I have never seen an American Cabernet tasting here in Sydney, like the WA Cabernet tasting recenty, and I simply do not have the money to buy $100+ wines in an attempt to find great US cabernets. If the US does have great cabernets, they are not making any serious attempt to let the Australian market know about it.

Also, I hope the emoticon did not mean I made you mad.

Adam wrote: Adair, why do you say calera viognier is drink now proposition? I have found it to be an excellent wine and benefits from a couple of years in the bottle. I dont actually find $36 to be over the top, just think of what you pay for top aussie whites, even grosset polish hill is sneaking up to over 25 USD in australia (obviously depeding on where you get it), this wine comes from a very small vineyard, about 6 acres and was recently annointed one of the finest viogniers ever made in california by RPjr, we all know what happens to australian pricing when that happens.

The Calera website states that approx. 50% of the wine has been put under Stelvin for freshness. Also, I do not expect a 15.5% white wine to age greatly. What did RPjr say about its aging prospects?

Re pricing - I don't consider Viognier a noble variety and New World Viognier is close to a joke in my mind with some obvious disabilities such as its prone to flabbiness and simplicity of flavour. It is not comparable to the complexity and ageworthiness of top Riesling from around the world and especially not comparable to the general attributes of Grosset Polish Hill.

However, I concede that I have not tried the Calera and indeed it might be better than the Virgilius but then again, I would not pay greater than 15 Australian dollars for that - actually, I still would not for 15!

Adair

Adair,

I would be interested to know what cabs you tried? I too had very little exposure to them whilst living in Australia, and I agree completely that they are over priced, I stated that earlier. Ones I have really enjoyed are mainly mainsteam wines, the Mondavi Reserve Cabernets 94, 95 and 97. The Phelps Insignia 95 and the Dominus 94. I do love aussie cabernet, especially from the margaret river but the above cabernets for my palate were "wow" wines, in comparison most of the mosswoods, cullens etc I have had were fantastic drinking but for me, not quite at the echelon of the wine world as some of the USA stuff can be....all that being said give me an decent aged bordeaux any day.

Stating that "US cabernets are quite ripe, quite oaked and lose their varietial definition" is similar to the aussie bashing that happens on the US boards, I can assure you that this is a very big generalisation.

The angry emoticon was because I am mad that the US stuff is so expensive!

Regarding viognier, there are some sensational old world viogniers from the rhone valley (Condrieu and Cahteau Grillet in particular, both being appelations that can only produce viognier, but quite different styles)...the producers there may tell you it is indeed a noble variety (I am with you that in my books it probably isnt), it has been in production there for around 2000 years.

I concur with your thoughts on Australian viognier, I have never really enjoyed one with the exception of the Tahbilk I had last year over a chinese dinner, I would also like to try the clonakilla viognier.

All this being said, Im not trying to bash australia or extol the virtues of viognier, all Im saying is that the USA does produce some exceptional wines, both red and white, unfortunately most Australians will never try them as for much less $$$ they can get something close in quality, but with the $ hitting .709 today maybe the value ratio will change with time?

I dont think the US producers will ever really target the aussie market, its hard to sell wine to a market with such a thriving local production. So if you want to try some of the greats you may have to seek them out yourself.

Cheers, Adam

I've had a couple of sensational US Zins and that aren't that hard to find if you know where to look but they are hardly in the local bottle shop.

The only thing that has ever made it to that level was the Suttor Home range that Vintage Cellars was pushing for a while. As it was a cheapie and there's plenty of aussie cheapies around, I never even bothered to try it. Maybe I could be accused of parochialism there.

I'm certainly open to trying some cabs and some pinots and most definitely some more zin but I could never see myself buying by the case. More of a buy a bottle to 'take the old palate for a walk' and try something different. I can afford the odd expensive bottle but like I said, I can't imagine buying cases of the stuff unless the prices came down substantially.

Adam wrote:Stating that "US cabernets are quite ripe, quite oaked and lose their varietial definition" is similar to the aussie bashing that happens on the US boards, I can assure you that this is a very big generalisation.

Yep, agree but taken in context with the rest of the post I hope that it was taken as a bit more intelligent than simple aussie bashing - just making a quick point.

Adam wrote:I would be interested to know what cabs you tried?

I have my little list at home but the Merryvale Profile was one that I remember off the top of my head that I was most impressed with.

Adam wrote:The angry emoticon was because I am mad that the US stuff is so expensive!

I should probably do a few myself then -

Adam wrote:Regarding viognier, there are some sensational old world viogniers from the rhone valley (Condrieu and Cahteau Grillet in particular, both being appelations that can only produce viognier, but quite different styles)...the producers there may tell you it is indeed a noble variety (I am with you that in my books it probably isnt), it has been in production there for around 2000 years.

Agree - this is why I stated "New World Viognier"

Adam wrote:I concur with your thoughts on Australian viognier, I have never really enjoyed one with the exception of the Tahbilk I had last year over a chinese dinner, I would also like to try the clonakilla viognier.

I have a bottle with your name on it if you tell me a way of getting it to you. I have one left from my allocation (4 x 375mL bottles) I bought LAST year (did not buy this year) and I am not going to drink it.

Adam wrote:All this being said, Im not trying to bash australia or extol the virtues of viognier, all Im saying is that the USA does produce some exceptional wines, both red and white, unfortunately most Australians will never try them as for much less $$$ they can get something close in quality, but with the $ hitting .709 today maybe the value ratio will change with time?

Go you little Aussie battler - whether the retailers would pass this on is a different question!

Adam wrote:I dont think the US producers will ever really target the aussie market, its hard to sell wine to a market with such a thriving local production. So if you want to try some of the greats you may have to seek them out yourself.

I will need to organise a US wine night where we all pitch in.

Adair

Adair wrote:

Adam wrote:I concur with your thoughts on Australian viognier, I have never really enjoyed one with the exception of the Tahbilk I had last year over a chinese dinner, I would also like to try the clonakilla viognier.

I have a bottle with your name on it if you tell me a way of getting it to you. I have one left from my allocation (4 x 375mL bottles) I bought LAST year (did not buy this year) and I am not going to drink it.
Adair

Was it that bad??! For pure curiosity value I purchased some clonakilla noble viognier.

I will be in Sydney within the next 3 months...lets catch up then for a dinner...I will try and bring some US cabernets!

USA produces wines to suit the style of Robert Parker. The wine is big and bold (ie, high alcohol, heavily oaked, big tannins). What it really lacking is personality, finesse and style

Why would you want to drink a wine that is made to suit a person? I'd prefer Australian, Spanish, and French wines anyday than any American wines. Call me a Snob... but that's the fact.

The US thinks they are the best in everything, but sometimes truth is not always told.

Adam wrote:

Adair wrote:

Adam wrote:I concur with your thoughts on Australian viognier, I have never really enjoyed one with the exception of the Tahbilk I had last year over a chinese dinner, I would also like to try the clonakilla viognier.

I have a bottle with your name on it if you tell me a way of getting it to you. I have one left from my allocation (4 x 375mL bottles) I bought LAST year (did not buy this year) and I am not going to drink it.
Adair

Was it that bad??! For pure curiosity value I purchased some clonakilla noble viognier.

I will be in Sydney within the next 3 months...lets catch up then for a dinner...I will try and bring some US cabernets!

Like most (read: all that I have tried) Australian Viogniers, I find them flabby/cloying with flavours too intense and broad for their structures. The clonakilla was one of the better examples of the grape though.

Tim Kirk never opened a Noble Viognier for me to try and I never bought any. I thought the dry example would be the better bet. I was probably wrong.

Re: catch up. Yes. I sent you a private message.

Adair

I live just a few hours away from the U.S. For the last five years, the bulk of my drinking has been mainly comprised of australian reds simply because they represent better value overall.

I used to drink far more California Cabernets between 1990 to 1997 because they were more affordable and every single vintage was close to exceptional (and by the way Rob, California cabs do have personality, finesse and style).

The strenght of the Greenback and the hype of the nineties have rendered American wines non worthy of purchasing. But in a good vintage their wines can be sublime.

Cheers,

Francois

Guest.

I have no problem with drinking or purchasing wine from any country as long as it represents decent quality for the dollar spent. I love Kiwi wines (especially pinots), have enjoyed many beautiful Italian wines, adore good french wine (both white and red), love Portugese fortifieds and have even found some nice Swiss white wines.I dont see how that makes me parochial.

Your comments on Australian Cabernet "Guest" are an insult to many great wines..like Adair said..for the same price of the Viogner which you think is good value (you must have deep pockets for that to seem good value..) i can drink a good vintage of any number great cabernets..

As for your comment on paying good money for the Mount Mary..well it was a gift from a close relative of Dr Middleton..but i would be happy to part with the dollars to buy such a sublime wine for a special occasion. Good value compared to the viogner you have mentioned.

Saying one country is better than the other is just bullshit..there are many regions, microregions, winemakers etc who all influence the wine that ends up in our glasses. Good wines come from most countries..not all however are good value..and thus do not enjoy market share.

Cheers

Paul