Hi,
We’re in the process of doing a renovation and as part of that we have included a “wine room†for use as a cellar. What I am trying to work out is whether or not I should make some provision for air conditioning down the track. The construction / dimensions are as follows:-
• 1500mm wide x 1500mm deep x 3000mm high
• Walls 19mm thick MDF (to provide something substantial to attach things to), 100mm thick studs with R3.5 polystyrene sheets as insulation
• Floor 19mm floorboards laid on top of plywood laid on top of a 0.2mm polyethylene moisture barrier laid on top of a 100mm thick concrete slab
• Roof Plasterboard with two layers of R4.0 insulation batts extending out around the perimeter of the room
• Room is internal to the house, i.e. no walls are exposed to the outside
• Door Will be a well sealed (all four sides) solid MDF door
With the racking starting about 450mm off the floor and extending up to about 1800mm it will hold about 1000 bottles or so.
The house will have ducted heating and air conditioning (not evaporative) but this will not be on 24 hours a day, rather it will just be used mainly during the day to make things more comfortable.
If I do need to put in cooling it will either have to be a self-contained unit which will need to be mounted vertically in the ceiling as all of the walls abut another room, or a split system with the condenser located outside the house.
I’d be interested in feedback on other people’s experiences with similar arrangements and in particular, if you feel additional cooling will be necessary as now is the easiest time for me to make provision for it.
We live in Melbourne.
Many thanks
Chris
Wine Room Under Construction - Would Appreciate Feedback
Chris,
Sounds like a neat little cellar with plenty of insulation. How long are you intending to cellar your wines? If you tend to drink your reds in mostly in the 7-12 yo range like I do then you should not need aircon. For about 5 years I stored most of my wine in a big walk-in cupboard, brick all round (except the door) on the lower floor of a two-storey house and I'm still drinking some of the wine from that period without any noticeable issues from the cellaring (although the last 10 years have been in an airconditioned cellar.
If you haven't already, get a max/min thermometer, you won't know for sure until a full cycle of seasons, but I suspect you'll be OK. My cellar sits around 16-17C in summer with a standard domestic split-unit air conditioner and about 14-15 in winter, less than ideal for very long cellaring, but absolutely fine for the time I cellar my wines. There are many passive cellars under houses in Canberra that have wider ranges of temps and more rapid fluctuations and I've had plenty of 10-15 yo reds from those cellars over many years that have been in great condition, good red wine is surprisingly robust unless it gets very warm for lenghty periods.
Sounds like a neat little cellar with plenty of insulation. How long are you intending to cellar your wines? If you tend to drink your reds in mostly in the 7-12 yo range like I do then you should not need aircon. For about 5 years I stored most of my wine in a big walk-in cupboard, brick all round (except the door) on the lower floor of a two-storey house and I'm still drinking some of the wine from that period without any noticeable issues from the cellaring (although the last 10 years have been in an airconditioned cellar.
If you haven't already, get a max/min thermometer, you won't know for sure until a full cycle of seasons, but I suspect you'll be OK. My cellar sits around 16-17C in summer with a standard domestic split-unit air conditioner and about 14-15 in winter, less than ideal for very long cellaring, but absolutely fine for the time I cellar my wines. There are many passive cellars under houses in Canberra that have wider ranges of temps and more rapid fluctuations and I've had plenty of 10-15 yo reds from those cellars over many years that have been in great condition, good red wine is surprisingly robust unless it gets very warm for lenghty periods.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Thanks to all for your comments, they are all appreciated. The bulk of our wines would be consumed in the 7-10 year range.
I suspected some form of mechanical air conditioning will be required and I have a max / min thermometer so I will install that. I actually want to set up a PC to data log the max, min and % humidity but it doesn't seem like a simple exercise...
I've been thinking about it and I was wondering if anyone has experience with domestic 1/4hp air conditioners, the old window type. If I mounted one of those in the roof space with some ducting directing the outlet down into the room would it work? I could drain the condenstate back into the room to keep the humidity up.
The problem with the more dedicted wine coolers is that they are made to go in a wall and I don't have that option. I could put a split system in there but then I wonder if that would go cool enough.
Thanks a lot.
I suspected some form of mechanical air conditioning will be required and I have a max / min thermometer so I will install that. I actually want to set up a PC to data log the max, min and % humidity but it doesn't seem like a simple exercise...
I've been thinking about it and I was wondering if anyone has experience with domestic 1/4hp air conditioners, the old window type. If I mounted one of those in the roof space with some ducting directing the outlet down into the room would it work? I could drain the condenstate back into the room to keep the humidity up.
The problem with the more dedicted wine coolers is that they are made to go in a wall and I don't have that option. I could put a split system in there but then I wonder if that would go cool enough.
Thanks a lot.
Red Bigot wrote:Chris,
Sounds like a neat little cellar with plenty of insulation. How long are you intending to cellar your wines?
Probably in the 5 to 10 year range
My cellar sits around 16-17C in summer with a standard domestic split-unit air conditioner and about 14-15 in winter
Do you just use the inbuilt thermostat to control the split system? I was just wondering how cold they can be set to go.
Does it ever have problems with freezing up? Some feedback I've had is that the unit that is inside the room might have feeze up with high humidity air in a typical cellar.
Many thanks for the comments
Fritz wrote:Thanks to all for your comments, they are all appreciated. The bulk of our wines would be consumed in the 7-10 year range.
I suspected some form of mechanical air conditioning will be required and I have a max / min thermometer so I will install that. I actually want to set up a PC to data log the max, min and % humidity but it doesn't seem like a simple exercise...
I've been thinking about it and I was wondering if anyone has experience with domestic 1/4hp air conditioners, the old window type. If I mounted one of those in the roof space with some ducting directing the outlet down into the room would it work? I could drain the condenstate back into the room to keep the humidity up.
The problem with the more dedicted wine coolers is that they are made to go in a wall and I don't have that option. I could put a split system in there but then I wonder if that would go cool enough.
Thanks a lot.
Hey fritz the problem with using standard air con units is they are designed to operate in the 18-24 deg range and the humidity level would not be high enough. If you drain the condensate back into the room where's the excess going to drain to. You need a specific unit designed for the purpose they also come in ceiling mounted splits. Also if you intend on installing a unit MDF is not fond of moisture.
river wrote:
Hey fritz the problem with using standard air con units is they are designed to operate in the 18-24 deg range and the humidity level would not be high enough. If you drain the condensate back into the room where's the excess going to drain to. You need a specific unit designed for the purpose they also come in ceiling mounted splits. Also if you intend on installing a unit MDF is not fond of moisture.
That is what I thought.
Could you let me know some brand names etc. of the specific units you are talking about. The ceiling mounted split option sounds ideal.
As for the MDF, a couple of people have said that there are moisture resistant MDF's so I am trying to find out more about those.
Thanks
Air con as a whole isnt very usefull for cellaring.
A couple of issues firstly they cycle that is that work in a range rather than maintain a constant temp. Say 14-17 C. With constant cyling the wines are taking a breath more often
Another problem is they tend to correct temp so you actually get air colder than optimum falling and mixing with the warmer air. Some area in your cellar might actually cycle more than the range set. Blasts of cold air over the bottle casues the wine to contract so it breaths again.
I think good cellaring is about slowing down the breaths (for want of a better word). The annual variations of underground cellars do it naturally.
They also dehumidify the air terribly.
A useful addition might be a double door or heavy screen so that on entry you dont fill the room with warm air from the house. Try and maintain contant temp rather than a particular temp. If you never go into the room dont worry about temp maintainance.
Weve all had great wine from the linen cupboard.
One establishment I worked at had aircon in the corridor and rooms adjoining the cellar but not in the cellar so that it never flooded with warm air (regular traffic here)
A couple of issues firstly they cycle that is that work in a range rather than maintain a constant temp. Say 14-17 C. With constant cyling the wines are taking a breath more often
Another problem is they tend to correct temp so you actually get air colder than optimum falling and mixing with the warmer air. Some area in your cellar might actually cycle more than the range set. Blasts of cold air over the bottle casues the wine to contract so it breaths again.
I think good cellaring is about slowing down the breaths (for want of a better word). The annual variations of underground cellars do it naturally.
They also dehumidify the air terribly.
A useful addition might be a double door or heavy screen so that on entry you dont fill the room with warm air from the house. Try and maintain contant temp rather than a particular temp. If you never go into the room dont worry about temp maintainance.
Weve all had great wine from the linen cupboard.
One establishment I worked at had aircon in the corridor and rooms adjoining the cellar but not in the cellar so that it never flooded with warm air (regular traffic here)
Futue te ipsum
This is my first post on this forum, having just come across it.
Good on you Fritz. Putting in my own cellar / wine room was one of my better moves. Quite apart from the wine, you should get a great deal of enjoyment out of it.
Some years ago, when building a new home in Melbourne (on a sloping block), I installed a 'semi underground' passive cellar. It served it's purpose very well, but had temp variations from a low of 13 degrees in winter to a high of 21 degrees in summer. This is more than ideal, but the variations occurred slowly. Entering the cellar during the February heat waves was probably the main reason for getting up to 21 degrees.
About 4 years ago, we moved to the Gold Coast. During a major renovation and extension of our house I put in a wine room (which I still refer to as a cellar). Due to the Qld heat, I actually built a cold room inside the house and cool it with a small Kirby refrigeration unit. It is set at a constant 15 degrees, but in practice the inside air temp varies between 15 and 18 degrees. I doubt that the wine varies this much. The temp increases are mostly when I enter the room frequently on a warm day (eg moving multiple cases of wine in after a trip to the retailer. Humidity remains very stable at around 70%.
Following that background, some comments on your great plan Fritz.
Why are you starting the racking 450 mm off the floor? I understand that you won't have to bend down as far, but you are losing valuable storage space. (my racks go right to the floor, with the bottom bottles being just 60mm from the floor). Also, you can readily take the racks up to 2 metres or a bit more, depending how tall you are of course (mine are about 2050mm high). You can never have too much storage space. Better to have unutilised space than not enough!
Given the dimensions you have mentioned, I doubt that you will get 1000 bottles into the room, but I guess this depends a bit on the design and how much space you lose with timber or other rack materials. Also whether you want to be able to instantly put you hands on every bottle in the room.
Your insulation plan sounds quite adequate for Melbourne, particularly if the summer heat can not enter the room when you open the door.
Get yourself a Max/Min digital thermometer with a humidity measurement on it. I don't remember where I got mine (but it was on the web) but it was not expensive.
If you need to cool the room, I recommend a small refrigeration unit, not an air conditioner. It will keep a much more stable temp and does not dry out the room. Not sure how you will go with no external wall though. Perhaps you can install it in the ceiling and use foam paneling around it to reduce noise transmission to other rooms through the ceiling.
Good luck and hope it all goes well for you.
Good on you Fritz. Putting in my own cellar / wine room was one of my better moves. Quite apart from the wine, you should get a great deal of enjoyment out of it.
Some years ago, when building a new home in Melbourne (on a sloping block), I installed a 'semi underground' passive cellar. It served it's purpose very well, but had temp variations from a low of 13 degrees in winter to a high of 21 degrees in summer. This is more than ideal, but the variations occurred slowly. Entering the cellar during the February heat waves was probably the main reason for getting up to 21 degrees.
About 4 years ago, we moved to the Gold Coast. During a major renovation and extension of our house I put in a wine room (which I still refer to as a cellar). Due to the Qld heat, I actually built a cold room inside the house and cool it with a small Kirby refrigeration unit. It is set at a constant 15 degrees, but in practice the inside air temp varies between 15 and 18 degrees. I doubt that the wine varies this much. The temp increases are mostly when I enter the room frequently on a warm day (eg moving multiple cases of wine in after a trip to the retailer. Humidity remains very stable at around 70%.
Following that background, some comments on your great plan Fritz.
Why are you starting the racking 450 mm off the floor? I understand that you won't have to bend down as far, but you are losing valuable storage space. (my racks go right to the floor, with the bottom bottles being just 60mm from the floor). Also, you can readily take the racks up to 2 metres or a bit more, depending how tall you are of course (mine are about 2050mm high). You can never have too much storage space. Better to have unutilised space than not enough!
Given the dimensions you have mentioned, I doubt that you will get 1000 bottles into the room, but I guess this depends a bit on the design and how much space you lose with timber or other rack materials. Also whether you want to be able to instantly put you hands on every bottle in the room.
Your insulation plan sounds quite adequate for Melbourne, particularly if the summer heat can not enter the room when you open the door.
Get yourself a Max/Min digital thermometer with a humidity measurement on it. I don't remember where I got mine (but it was on the web) but it was not expensive.
If you need to cool the room, I recommend a small refrigeration unit, not an air conditioner. It will keep a much more stable temp and does not dry out the room. Not sure how you will go with no external wall though. Perhaps you can install it in the ceiling and use foam paneling around it to reduce noise transmission to other rooms through the ceiling.
Good luck and hope it all goes well for you.
kirragc wrote:Air con as a whole isnt very usefull for cellaring.
A couple of issues firstly they cycle that is that work in a range rather than maintain a constant temp. Say 14-17 C. With constant cyling the wines are taking a breath more often
Another problem is they tend to correct temp so you actually get air colder than optimum falling and mixing with the warmer air. Some area in your cellar might actually cycle more than the range set. Blasts of cold air over the bottle casues the wine to contract so it breaths again.
I think good cellaring is about slowing down the breaths (for want of a better word). The annual variations of underground cellars do it naturally.
Well, as someone who has used a standard domestic split unit in a fairly large cellar for over 10 years I have to disagree strongly will just about all your statements except the one about humidity.
If you are cellaring for mostly 7-10 years, with some a bit longer then a split domestic unit is quite adequate if you have a means of increasing humidity in warm weather when the aircon sucks it out. I'm also unconvinced that lower humidity (45-50%) has much effect on cork-sealed wines cellared for 10 years or so and it has no effect on screwcap sealed wines. In peak summer periods I run an evaporative cooler in the cellar to raise the humidity a bit and I get some moisture from 3-4 courses of bricks in the outside double-brick wall being below the damp-course. Most of the year it sits on 60-70%.
For most of the year in Canberra my daily range seldom exceeds one degree celsius, even at an air-temp variation of 2-3 degrees (when doing stocktakes in the cellar etc.) the bottle variation is negligible, cork-sealed wines just don't "breathe" that fast with such a small transient variation. Maybe it helps that much of my wine is in cartons or stacked bottle-on-bottle in bins of 18-58 bottles, not in individual slots. I wouldn't fit my wine in a cellar twice the size if I did fancy single-bottle racking. See here if interested: http://redbigot.info/Cellar/cellar1.html
Fritz, spend as much as you like or can afford, I'm happy that my substantial investment in wine is adequately protected by my simple aircon solution, I prove that fact every week as I sample older wines up to 15 yo from my cellar stocks.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Fritz wrote:river wrote:
As for the MDF, a couple of people have said that there are moisture resistant MDF's so I am trying to find out more about those.
HMR MDF is available (High Moisture Resistance) and is typically used in wet areas. Whilst it won't take water being splashed at it all day, I suspect it would be a good solution for a humid cellar.
Just beware of the long term formaldehyde emission issue!!!
Cheers
Wayno
Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.
Wayno
Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.
Well, as someone who has used a standard domestic split unit in a fairly large cellar for over 10 years I have to disagree strongly will just about all your statements except the one about humidity.
If you are cellaring for mostly 7-10 years, with some a bit longer then a split domestic unit is quite adequate if you have a means of increasing humidity in warm weather when the aircon sucks it out. I'm also unconvinced that lower humidity (45-50%) has much effect on cork-sealed wines cellared for 10 years or so and it has no effect on screwcap sealed wines. In peak summer periods I run an evaporative cooler in the cellar to raise the humidity a bit and I get some moisture from 3-4 courses of bricks in the outside double-brick wall being below the damp-course. Most of the year it sits on 60-70%.
This gives me great confidence that the direction I am heading in is the right one - thanks!
Is the split controlled by the in-built thermostat or have you over-ridden it with something else? I wasn't sure how cold they would run down to, but it sounds like they will work OK.
As for it de-humidifying the air, what about running the drain back into the room?
Cheers
Hi there, Look at this as a great alternative and offer better insulation properties than polystyrene http://www.aeromfg.com.au/
They do have lined panels....
I have nothing to do with this company btw!
Regards
Finney (Craig)
They do have lined panels....
I have nothing to do with this company btw!
Regards
Finney (Craig)
Fritz wrote:Well, as someone who has used a standard domestic split unit in a fairly large cellar for over 10 years I have to disagree strongly will just about all your statements except the one about humidity.
If you are cellaring for mostly 7-10 years, with some a bit longer then a split domestic unit is quite adequate if you have a means of increasing humidity in warm weather when the aircon sucks it out. I'm also unconvinced that lower humidity (45-50%) has much effect on cork-sealed wines cellared for 10 years or so and it has no effect on screwcap sealed wines. In peak summer periods I run an evaporative cooler in the cellar to raise the humidity a bit and I get some moisture from 3-4 courses of bricks in the outside double-brick wall being below the damp-course. Most of the year it sits on 60-70%.
This gives me great confidence that the direction I am heading in is the right one - thanks!
Is the split controlled by the in-built thermostat or have you over-ridden it with something else? I wasn't sure how cold they would run down to, but it sounds like they will work OK.
As for it de-humidifying the air, what about running the drain back into the room?
Cheers
Sorry, I was a bit busy last week and missed the first thermostat question. It's a standard in-built thermostat, in summer I sit it on minimum (18C, it's an old unit, newer units have lower cooling temps available, possibly down to 14C) but three max-min themometers in various parts of the cellar confirm 16-17C temp, in Winter I set it on the lowest heat setting (16C I think) and again the max-min thermos confirmn 14-15. If we have a mild in-between season I turn it off for a few weeks, otherwise it runs all year round, I've not had a problem with icing up, all modern split units probably have auto de-icing anyway, this is over 10yo and the external unit has it.
Strangely enough, the drain pipe from the external unit (it's inside a double garage that has good breeze ventilation) comes back into the cellar and into a rainwater downpipe, but there isn't enough room to set up a proper evaporation arrangement until I drink/sell another 500 bottles or so. I tried the old wet towel in a bucket of water (several of them) but it wasn't really effective. In a smaller cellar running the drain into a large towel hanging over a drip-tray might work. As I said before, if you are only cellaring wines for 5-10 years, I don't think low humidity (40-50%) is much of a problem. Even in peak summer the humidity in my cellar seldom goes below 45% for short periods and the evap cooler takes it up to about 55%.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
If you are using HMR (MDF or particle board) I would recommend sealing all cut surfaces prior to installation. Don't worry too much about the dispersion of Formaldehyde from static board, but wear a mask when machining. Results of testing are inconclusive about whether damage is done by the Formaldehyde content or just the ultra-fine nature of the dust. Either way, a mask is justified (says he who frequently forgets!)
Cheers,
Mark
Cheers,
Mark