Andrew's comments about the 2002 Jacobs Creek Reserve Shiraz made me think about something that I have always wondered, which is what do you get for your money. That is, when you can get high quality quaffers like the Jacob's Creek Reserve wines, the Seppelt Original, Hardy's Oomoo, Peter Lehmann etc for $10 - $13 a bottle what do you get when you spend $30 - $400 a bottle? Is it worth the extra money?
And in relation to ratings - when JO gives the Jacobs Creek a 93 does that make it a better wine than wines which cost 5 times as much but rate less? Or is the rating against other lower priced wines?
Quaffers v High Priced Wines
Quaffers v High Priced Wines
Cheers,
Craig
Craig
Criag,
The rise in quality vs price is rarely, if ever, a linear ratio. Rather, an exponential one that sees a great change in price for a small change in quality, as a generalisation.
I think that a lot of the time, price has to be forgotten. Dearer wines can be more expensive for many reasons, not necessarily a qaulity factor. It can be the time and money invested in the selection and growing of a particular variety (the case put forth by pinot growers), the age of vines and therefore a reduced yield (part of the reason why old vine wines attract a premium), even the quantity of the wine made irrespective of yields (owning one case of a wine where only 100 cases were produced is pretty special). To use a specific example, look at Jasper Hill. By Ron Laughton's own admission, the Emily's is by no means a better wine than the Georgia's (despite around $30 difference per bottle), however it is made in far less quantities and requires a bit more TLC in the vineyard and in particular the winery.
When these aspects and many more are combined and taken into account, you have your perceived 'value' of a wine. It would be a boring old world having a cellar full of your ten favourite quaffers from year after year, as it would be having a cellar full of HoG and Grange only. I think the trick to healthy and enjoyable wine consumption is diversity and a good balance, subject to your budget allowances.
Enough from me.
The rise in quality vs price is rarely, if ever, a linear ratio. Rather, an exponential one that sees a great change in price for a small change in quality, as a generalisation.
I think that a lot of the time, price has to be forgotten. Dearer wines can be more expensive for many reasons, not necessarily a qaulity factor. It can be the time and money invested in the selection and growing of a particular variety (the case put forth by pinot growers), the age of vines and therefore a reduced yield (part of the reason why old vine wines attract a premium), even the quantity of the wine made irrespective of yields (owning one case of a wine where only 100 cases were produced is pretty special). To use a specific example, look at Jasper Hill. By Ron Laughton's own admission, the Emily's is by no means a better wine than the Georgia's (despite around $30 difference per bottle), however it is made in far less quantities and requires a bit more TLC in the vineyard and in particular the winery.
When these aspects and many more are combined and taken into account, you have your perceived 'value' of a wine. It would be a boring old world having a cellar full of your ten favourite quaffers from year after year, as it would be having a cellar full of HoG and Grange only. I think the trick to healthy and enjoyable wine consumption is diversity and a good balance, subject to your budget allowances.
Enough from me.
Max
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Avant d’être bon, un vin doit être vrai
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Avant d’être bon, un vin doit être vrai
Are you kidding, there is absolutely no way that qpr increases with price. But hey who ever said you have to justify your purchases with the bank manager. I think the 02 Jacobs is fantastic value, and the last case I bought they gave me a bottle of 99 limited with it 
. But hey my other hobby is racing motorcycles so what would I know about sensible use of the hard earned 
. But when you are in the company of many or a few good friends who appreciate a fine drop and you pluck something from the cellar that many moons ago you paid a rediculous amount of money for and all around appreciate what is served who the hell cares 
. All that really matters is did you think it was worth it? I know I did 
Glen
. But hey my other hobby is racing motorcycles so what would I know about sensible use of the hard earned . But when you are in the company of many or a few good friends who appreciate a fine drop and you pluck something from the cellar that many moons ago you paid a rediculous amount of money for and all around appreciate what is served who the hell cares . All that really matters is did you think it was worth it? I know I did
Glen
Winner of the inaugural RB cork-count competition
Runner up RB-NTDIR competition
Runner up TORB TN competition
Leave of absence second RB c-c competition
Runner up RB-NTDIR competition
Runner up TORB TN competition
Leave of absence second RB c-c competition
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grasshopper
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:56 pm
- Location: Sydney
Thanks hypnotoad for posting this question. I think this is exactly what I need to know as an apprentice wino with a limited budget.
I often see rating of "quaffers" as high as expensive wines but assumed that this rating may have included some value component. However, maybe this is not the case.
Cheers,
Andrew
I often see rating of "quaffers" as high as expensive wines but assumed that this rating may have included some value component. However, maybe this is not the case.
Cheers,
Andrew
Re: Quaffers v High Priced Wines
Craig,
When you were converting those files, you obviously were not doing youir home work and reading them.
The Law of Diminishing Returns answers the first question you raised.
In answer to the second, the scores are absolute so a wine like the JC that scores highly is, in JO's opinion, a better wine than say the 2000 Grange.
When you were converting those files, you obviously were not doing youir home work and reading them.
The Law of Diminishing Returns answers the first question you raised.
In answer to the second, the scores are absolute so a wine like the JC that scores highly is, in JO's opinion, a better wine than say the 2000 Grange.
Re: Quaffers v High Priced Wines
TORB wrote:Craig,
When you In answer to the second, the scores are absolute so a wine like the JC that scores highly is, in JO's opinion, a better wine than say the 2000 Grange.
This is what I have long wondered myself. Whilst I think you are correct and it supposed to be this way I think the ratings show otherwise. Sort of contradicts that rating system.
I have found alot of higher priced and well rated dearer wines to be a let down on release and alot of cheaper wines a great suprise. I have also found that {most}, alot of the time that 5-10 years later the cheaper wine is dead and the more expensive wine has become much much better than you could have imagined.
Re: Quaffers v High Priced Wines
platinum wrote: I have found alot of higher priced and well rated dearer wines to be a let down on release and alot of cheaper wines a great suprise. I have also found that {most}, alot of the time that 5-10 years later the cheaper wine is dead and the more expensive wine has become much much better than you could have imagined.
Plati,
No argument there; and that is one of the shortcomings of a reliance on a numerical rating system and why the tasting note is so important. The TN should tell you that the expensive wine will still be alive in x years and the cheap wine well and truly dead by then.
Craig, if you are happy with the under $15 reds you mention, thank your lucky stars and hope the producers can continue that level of quality in that price range for a long time.
Many people find that as their palate develops and they try a wider range of wines they have to pay more to get the level of satisfaction they are happy with. It seems to reach a natural level (depending on your budget as well as taste preferences), there are good wines with reasonable qpr to be had at many price-points.
I find I'm buying mostly in the $25-$50 range these days, with occasional forays above that for special occasion wines and below that for a rare under-priced gem to top up everyday drinking stocks. In that range there are many wines that I think have good qpr for the satisfaction and cellaring life they give me, but there are also a lot of wines that don't seem to be worth the asking price.
Wine pricing is a bit like many other non-essential luxury goods like cars and hi-fi gear, the qpr curve tends to be exponential and a scarcity/prestige factor comes into it too. When a wine I've bought over the years is pushed too far up the price gradient without a commensurate increase in quality I simply stop buying it and seem to find an adequate replacement without too much difficulty. I have exactly 9 bottles of Grange in my cellar, 3 1983's and 6 1996 vintage bought at $245pb. I just don't see any point in paying $400 for a bottle of wine just as I see no point in buying a BMW 325 when I can get a Subaru 3.0 or 2.0 Turbo AWD that suits my requirements better for $20,000 less.
Many people find that as their palate develops and they try a wider range of wines they have to pay more to get the level of satisfaction they are happy with. It seems to reach a natural level (depending on your budget as well as taste preferences), there are good wines with reasonable qpr to be had at many price-points.
I find I'm buying mostly in the $25-$50 range these days, with occasional forays above that for special occasion wines and below that for a rare under-priced gem to top up everyday drinking stocks. In that range there are many wines that I think have good qpr for the satisfaction and cellaring life they give me, but there are also a lot of wines that don't seem to be worth the asking price.
Wine pricing is a bit like many other non-essential luxury goods like cars and hi-fi gear, the qpr curve tends to be exponential and a scarcity/prestige factor comes into it too. When a wine I've bought over the years is pushed too far up the price gradient without a commensurate increase in quality I simply stop buying it and seem to find an adequate replacement without too much difficulty. I have exactly 9 bottles of Grange in my cellar, 3 1983's and 6 1996 vintage bought at $245pb. I just don't see any point in paying $400 for a bottle of wine just as I see no point in buying a BMW 325 when I can get a Subaru 3.0 or 2.0 Turbo AWD that suits my requirements better for $20,000 less.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
The numeric rating system is full of holes and must not be taken as being gospel.
I too see modestly priced wines given say 94 points by someone when a bottle three times the price has been given 91. If you put the two side by side blind I would bet the 91 pointer will come out on top on most occasions.
These ratings are often done in fast tasting mode, much like show judging and if the taster is spitting then the full gamut of the wines is not taken into account.
Only you know what you like, it will be different than a whole host of "experts" and similar to a whole heap more. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Halliday gave it 97 and TORB rated it Excellent if you don't like it.
Use the numbers as a guide only, seek out the ones well known scribes give high points to and then make up your OWN mind.
I too see modestly priced wines given say 94 points by someone when a bottle three times the price has been given 91. If you put the two side by side blind I would bet the 91 pointer will come out on top on most occasions.
These ratings are often done in fast tasting mode, much like show judging and if the taster is spitting then the full gamut of the wines is not taken into account.
Only you know what you like, it will be different than a whole host of "experts" and similar to a whole heap more. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Halliday gave it 97 and TORB rated it Excellent if you don't like it.
Use the numbers as a guide only, seek out the ones well known scribes give high points to and then make up your OWN mind.
Cheers - Steve
If you can see through it, it's not worth drinking!
If you can see through it, it's not worth drinking!
Thanks for the feedback guys. I don't have the patience or the facilities to do any long term cellaring at the moment so I'll continue buying my wines in the $10 - $15 price category.
Probably as I get older and more into wine I'll move into the higher priced wines and start cellaring.
Might even get around to read TORBWine one day 
Probably as I get older and more into wine I'll move into the higher priced wines and start cellaring.
Might even get around to read TORBWine one day
Cheers,
Craig
Craig
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action2096
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:00 am
- Location: Sydney - Australia
Craig,
Having only really started to develop a taste for wine over the last couple of years i can understand where you are coming from. Personally when i first started taking a deeper interest i'd usually end up spending $10-15 for a bottle of white and maybe $15-20 for red. I'd look in bottle shops at wine 2-3 times that price and think to myself there is no way i would spend that much money on a bottle of grape juice.. 2 years later and my buying has changed somewhat and i find myself spending on average $15-30 for a decent white and maybe $20-40 on red with the odd $50er thrown in. Its quite scarey how you can get hooked and end up spending just that little bit more each time..
IMHO you will often get a much better wine for $30-40 than say $10-15 but i think as people have mentioned here its very much a case of diminishing returns & personal taste.
As for scoring then my advice would be to simply use them as a guide for wines you may wish to try for yourself as everyone opinion on wine & QPR varies greatly.
Cheers
Chris
Having only really started to develop a taste for wine over the last couple of years i can understand where you are coming from. Personally when i first started taking a deeper interest i'd usually end up spending $10-15 for a bottle of white and maybe $15-20 for red. I'd look in bottle shops at wine 2-3 times that price and think to myself there is no way i would spend that much money on a bottle of grape juice.. 2 years later and my buying has changed somewhat and i find myself spending on average $15-30 for a decent white and maybe $20-40 on red with the odd $50er thrown in. Its quite scarey how you can get hooked and end up spending just that little bit more each time..
IMHO you will often get a much better wine for $30-40 than say $10-15 but i think as people have mentioned here its very much a case of diminishing returns & personal taste.
As for scoring then my advice would be to simply use them as a guide for wines you may wish to try for yourself as everyone opinion on wine & QPR varies greatly.
Cheers
Chris
Everyone buys the odd bottle without caring about qpr...whether its excellent quality, unsual, special, rare, an icon etc
Aside from that, qpr is a huge factor in my decisions. Most of my wine is now purchased from the $20-35 range.
Diminishing returns it is, but the devil is in the detail with any artistic persuit. With no demand for greatness there would be no reward in producing it.
So long live the obsessed buyers of fine wine.
Aside from that, qpr is a huge factor in my decisions. Most of my wine is now purchased from the $20-35 range.
Diminishing returns it is, but the devil is in the detail with any artistic persuit. With no demand for greatness there would be no reward in producing it.
So long live the obsessed buyers of fine wine.
