Irritation respecing 2002 Seppelt St. Peters.

[prester john]

I have been trying to obtain just a few bottles of the 2002 St. Peters and had no luck. As a last resort I tried the winery which said they would sell me 3 bottles of the last remaining few left. I was quite happy with this even though they were about $AUD53 each, in view of the superlative vintage.

IRRITATION NO. 1: What occurred to have caused Seppelt to make only a putative 70 cases for Victoria, as one retailer advised me. The meagre allocation provided to retailers was snapped up quickly. Even the strong buying power of Dan Murphy only resulted in 3 cases being allocated to all (not each) of the stores. Strangely enough, I can still get 1999, 2000 and 2001 vintages in ample quantities, however I have eschewed these, particularly the 2000. I have enough of the others. Surely the weather conditions could not have been that bad to result in such a poor output. I suspect that much of the 2002 vintage might have been allocated to overseas locations. Can someone on this esteemed forum elucidate further?

Fortuitously, a friend in the retail game suggested that I try one of the retail stores of a competitor. I did, and found another 3 bottles which I have since secured, since I only wanted 6 bottles. However, I have purchased these at $46 per bottle.

IRRITATION NO. 2: Why does Seppelt feel the need to put a premium of wines purchased directly from cellar door. One can dismiss the issue of freight immediately. Surely it could not be a cynical play at money grabbing!? I have known the perils of purchasing at cellar door for a while, but the fact that this sort of conduct persists irritates me greatly.

Does anyone have similar experiences in relation to the St. Peters?

I simply had to vent a little grievance.

PJ.

[Guest]

With regards to St. Peters, I purchased them at $50 and $45. However, I don't think its fair to simply single out Seppelt's for charging more at CD. The same can be said for CD purchases from Charles Melton, Dalwhinnie, Peter Lehmann, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ken Tan]

I live in Singapore. It's freely available here. Seppelt's wines aren't as popular as Penfolds or Wolf Blass.

[Guest]

I have been trying to obtain just a few bottles of the 2002 St. Peters and had no luck. As a last resort I tried the winery which said they would sell me 3 bottles of the last remaining few left. I was quite happy with this even though they were about $AUD53 each, in view of the superlative vintage.

IRRITATION NO. 1: What occurred to have caused Seppelt to make only a putative 70 cases for Victoria, as one retailer advised me. The meagre allocation provided to retailers was snapped up quickly. Even the strong buying power of Dan Murphy only resulted in 3 cases being allocated to all (not each) of the stores. Strangely enough, I can still get 1999, 2000 and 2001 vintages in ample quantities, however I have eschewed these, particularly the 2000. I have enough of the others. Surely the weather conditions could not have been that bad to result in such a poor output. I suspect that much of the 2002 vintage might have been allocated to overseas locations. Can someone on this esteemed forum elucidate further?

Fortuitously, a friend in the retail game suggested that I try one of the retail stores of a competitor. I did, and found another 3 bottles which I have since secured, since I only wanted 6 bottles. However, I have purchased these at $46 per bottle.

IRRITATION NO. 2: Why does Seppelt feel the need to put a premium of wines purchased directly from cellar door. One can dismiss the issue of freight immediately. Surely it could not be a cynical play at money grabbing!? I have known the perils of purchasing at cellar door for a while, but the fact that this sort of conduct persists irritates me greatly.

Does anyone have similar experiences in relation to the St. Peters?

I simply had to vent a little grievance.

PJ.

No.1 - No. Only 500 cases made. 2002 Tiny yeilds. 2001 small yields. 1999 big yields. Not exported in bulk AFAIK.
No 2 - What CD price is cheaper than best retail? Not many at all.

[Chow Chow]

I'm a big fan of the 98. For all the hype, I need to jump in the bandwagon to try 1 for myself.
btw,Gavin, wat's ur allocation for the St.peter 2002?

[Red Bigot]

IRRITATION NO. 2: Why does Seppelt feel the need to put a premium of wines purchased directly from cellar door. One can dismiss the issue of freight immediately. Surely it could not be a cynical play at money grabbing!? I have known the perils of purchasing at cellar door for a while, but the fact that this sort of conduct persists irritates me greatly.

PJ, Seppelts haven't put a premium on it, that is the RRP, just that some retailers undercut RRP in the competitive retail wine climate we have now. The CD can't be seen to be undercutting the many retailers who don't shave the margin, or those retailers won't buy their wine. The discount price for Gt Western Drives Club members is $44.50 + freight, limit 1 6-pack, mine arrived today. So, be happy you got 3 @ $46 and be aware you are 1 of only 1-2 thousand or so people in the world that have any of this wine.

The retailers you should perhaps be mad at are those that ramp up the price on scarce wines well above RRP, but then no-one I know buys from them anyway.

[Gavin Trott]

I'm a big fan of the 98. For all the hype, I need to jump in the bandwagon to try 1 for myself.
btw,Gavin, wat's ur allocation for the St.peter 2002?

Miniscule

Oh and the 2003 Chalambar was 'allocated' too!

[PaulS]

I agree with the others that it is not really accurate to single out Seppelt/Southcorp. It is customary to pay more at cellar door these days for wines produced by medium/larger companies.

The price you pay for the 02 St Peters is really not that high, given the reputation of the label, the vintage and the wine's inherent quality.

As far as allocations go, Dan Murphys must have received more than three cases. I personally didn't have any trouble getting two six packs, from two different stores. I paid $41.49 per bottle.

By the way, I couldn't help noticing at my local Vintage Cellars store the 2003 Chalambar on sale for $35. $35! How they get away with charging those prices is really beyond me.

[Guest]

Just picked up a 6 pack of 03 Chalambar from DM for $108 - $18 per bottle! No wonder why Coles Myer is struggling with their liquor offering!

[Guest]

So can anyone here give it the tick of approval yet?

[Christo]

Just to add to the irritation, ive been having my chops busted the last two weeks trying to track this wine down. Here are some findings (apologies if prices are wrong, flicking backwards & fowards from my email with the replies from wine merchants):

Nicks sold out @ $49.99
15Celcius sold out @ $44
Avalon sold out @ $47
boccacio all allocated prince unsure
winestar same deal
cloudwine did not get any
Dan Murphy(syd, & melb - not sure adelaide) sold out at $42/pb or $35 case lot (lucky bastards)
GW Drives club sold out @$44.50 to memebers
topwine sold out
First estate sold out @ $59/ botle
Vintage cellars still waiting for a small allocation stores unsure price $55+
Auswine still available (with chalambar 03 6pack or doz purchase) at $50/bot

so after all this im excausted looking for this wine... as Brian states on his RBG page "scarcer than hens teeth"!

To those that got some... enjoy! for us that didn't , post a few elloquent TN to make us droule!!!

Christo

[SG Guest]

I live in Singapore. It's freely available here. Seppelt's wines aren't as popular as Penfolds or Wolf Blass.

I still don't see any of the st. peter 02 in S'pore, where did you find it

[HXY]

I live in Singapore. It's freely available here. Seppelt's wines aren't as popular as Penfolds or Wolf Blass.

I still don't see any of the st. peter 02 in S'pore, where did you find it

I've seen earlier vintages before, can't recall where, but certainly not '02...

[Guest]

ken : who sells the seppelt 2002 in singapore?
thanks

[John Clark]

Neither St Peter's nor Chalamber available in the UK

[Guest]

aside from a tiny amount going to one New Zealand retailer no 2002 St. Peters was exported, its just a very small vintage of a very highly anticipated wine

2002 was a tough vintage in Western Victoria due to the cold. Great wines were made but only due to rigourous selection. A single block of one vineyard made the St. Peters grade and no '02V Cabernets of any kind were released, no Drumborg Riesling etc.

2003V will also be limited due to frost and '02 conditions affecting fruitfulness however the '04V is a great year with volumes back on track

[Guest]

I was offered 6 St Peters 2002 by a local merchant (Melbourne), about a month after I expressed an interest while browsing in the shop. The price offered was $65 per bottle. I declined. I know that $65 is not a huge price to pay for a brilliant wine, but I don't like feeling that I'm being taken for a ride - and that's just how I felt. At $55 I would have said yes. There are plenty of good wines out there, and I can't have them all.

[Davo]

My biggest irritation is whingers.

Buy it or don't buy it.

Grange probably costs around $20 to produce a bottle, as do most premium wines, certainly no more. So why are they charging so much retail?

Who cares, either buy it or don't buy it. If no one bought it the price would come down pretty damn quick as per the Wynns Michael and Riddoch fiasco.

Obviously folk want this enough to buy it. Tough for those who want more or want to pay less.

It is called free market pricing.

[Andy Kayne - Guest]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have read this and other threads with some amusement particularly when it comes to pricing and pricing policies of retailers and cellar doors.

A release such as St Peters 2002 allows retailers to reward some loyalty shown by customers, the retailers I know have no time for potential customers ringing around 27 outlets trying to get bragging rights about how much they procured.

Brian is spot on regarding the Seppelt Club which does just this. All they are doing is rewarding loyalty. I ask all of you out there - how much would you retail a wine everyone wants that cost you $40 per bottle?

The source of much amusement is the continuous quoting of pricing on both this and other sites linked to here. Like the $35 Christo speaks of from Dan Murphy. This is clearly an error. Did anyone actually buy at $35? Perhaps a case or two slipped through. Whether people want to take advantage of retailer errors is a different issue, not one I will comment on, but I certainly wouldnÂ’t blink at a Woolies or Coles chain store. However, it is still an error. You will find that DMÂ’s was over $40 for the main. A price of $20 was recently quoted on Jamiesons Winemakers Reserve - another error. I am not suggesting people did not benefit at that price, but be mindful of quoting these prices at large when some of us go to the stores only to be told of these mistakes!

At the other end of the equation is screams of greed when a higher price is seen. Many of the better retailers mentioned in this thread buy secondary market just to keep customers happy. I ask the question again - how much would you retail a wine everyone wants that cost you $50 or $55 per bottle?

The notion of doing price comparisons is fraught with danger because it is not as simple as one price compared to the other.

• Is the price accurate?
• Is the case price for 6 or 8 or 12? Does it include VAT?
• Do they accept my credit card or is it a cash price?
• Do they actually have stock?
• Does price included delivery?
• Insurance?
• What if I have an issue with the goods - will they refund/exchange?
• Is the vintage correct?
• Will they answer my email inside a week?
• Will the wine be sound and will they ship in cooler weather?

Whilst price fixing is illegal, we often ask retailers to respect a price point to avoid a brand being bastardized. Not coincidentally, these retailers seem to find the allocations they desire as opposed to the cowboys whom more and more are finding themselves on the outer. The cowboys then respond by selling their one dozen allocation at $19 when aforementioned retailer has 500 cases and a price of $21 (which incidentally includes all of the above). ItÂ’s all fun and games. Further, I wouldnÂ’t call you greedy if I didnÂ’t know your circumstances.

I don't know how to do the quote thingy but the post by Davo is one of the best posts I have read on a wine forum! To true Davo

Thanks for reading.

[Red Bigot]

Hi Andy, nice first post. You mention VAT, where are you based?

Looks like you've probably seen my site too and to respond re Dan Murphy, I know of at least 4 different stores where the $44.95 single / $34.95 was offered and honoured for 6-packs or mixed case purchases, over a period of 2 weeks or more as stock filtered through. Since they have mostly centralised purchasing and pricing with some local autonomy I wonder if it was a mistake, they don't actually make too many, I've checked on a number of their "ridiculously low" prices and been told they are just short-term specials. Maybe DM are the "cowboys" here?

Re Price comparisons, your points are valid, but there are in fact quite a number of reputable smaller retailers out there that aren't cowboys and will do good deals with good service, Auswine being one of them.

You say "we often ask retailers to respect a price point etc.", does this indicate you are "in the industry"? Perhaps you would like to divulge your connections?

Although I understand your "brand bastardization" point, I don't see how (polite or otherwise) pressure on retailers to maintain a price point doesn't constitute illegal activity. I know it happens quite a lot, especially to small independents (some of whom may indeed be "cowboys" to you, but maybe not to their customers), but there is obviously nothing thay can do if they want to stay in business, as you so succinctly describe in "getting allocations" by "toeing the line".

[707]

Some good posts on this thread.

I'm amazed at how some people get all worked up about pricing. Like Davo said either buy it or don't buy it but don't winge about it.

Highly sought after small production wines are always subject to price variations, mainly rising variations! It's what drives some wines into orbit. I was a Three Rivers customer and happily paid my $35, $45, $55 a bottle until a whole lot of other people wanted it and I couldn't afford it any more. I just moved on.

Pricing above $20 bears little resemblence to the cost of manufacture. I've done the sums many times and even at $10,000 a tonne there is a whole lot of profit being made a various levels, particularly by the Feds!

So whatever a wine is priced at, it is purely market demand and that folks is driven by YOU. St.Peters is only a $50 if you buy it, if you don't it will be in next months specials bin.

As for price comparison of retailers, I think service is far more important. If you want to buy all your wine from the two grocers then good luck to you but you won't find me there very often.

People who shop around on price or sramble after anything in short supply mystify me. Recently in the Adelaide paper there was an article on John Duval's (ex head honcho at Penfolds and Grange maker) first release wine, a Grenache blend called Plexus, about $35 retail. Allocations are fairly small. A couple of days later I dropped into my retailer who said they'd had over 400 calls in two from people chasing it, as much as they could get mostly. The wine duly arrived but guess who got it? that's right, it was divided amongst his loyal customers. What happens if you're a customer of the grocers when their allocation lobs? It gets sold to the first blow in through the door or snaffled by the staff.

Being aligned with one or more of the good independent retailers either locally or on the net is the best way to ensure a supply of all those hard to get wines at a price that reflects their excellent service levels. These guys are also the ones that find the exciting new players like Kalleske, Glaymond, Massena etc, the two grocers don't find and support these guys. I'd hate to think what wine we'd have if the independants disappeared but I can guarantee it wouldn't be interesting.

So get over pricing and take a broader and more mature look at the whole picture.

Rant over......

[JohnP]

RB, Andy and Davo - all very valid points. Pricing is perhaps one of the most variable aspects of purchasing wine. You only have to do the rounds of the local wine shops to see the ridiculous level of price variation.

Andy's point on loyalty is very important - how do most exclusive mailing lists start if not with the wineries long time loyal buyers. With the small wine retailer loyalty is paramount to success and most will reward their loyal customers with good discounts on shelf prices and with early notification on new arrivals or limited release wines.

I can get a way better deal on wine purchases by simply buying regularly from the same small wine retailer, than I can by shopping around on the phone - in many cases I buy cheaper than CD or ML by a good margin.

John

[Guest]

Red Bigot,

Sorry, I meant GST. Old habits indeed die hard!

I am based in Australia, and I am in the industry.

""Although I understand your "brand bastardization" point, I don't see how (polite or otherwise) pressure on retailers to maintain a price point doesn't constitute illegal activity. I know it happens quite a lot, especially to small independents (some of whom may indeed be "cowboys" to you, but maybe not to their customers), but there is obviously nothing thay can do if they want to stay in business, as you so succinctly describe in "getting allocations" by "toeing the line".""

Even polite pressure is too strong an angle, it is not even a wink or a nudge. Some guys just 'get it'. They know how to play the game. At national sales meetings the same 3 or 4 retailers names come up. These guys aren't always the cheapest, the have a mix of a number of good qualities of which price is the most important though not only factor. The way these guys market themselves see companies big and small wanting to 'get in' with these retailers. I don't think the chains 'get it'. But my role is based on the independent trade so I dont have a lot to do with CM and W.

[guest]

Looks like you've probably seen my site too and to respond re Dan Murphy, I know of at least 4 different stores where the $44.95 single / $34.95 was offered and honoured for 6-packs or mixed case purchases, over a period of 2 weeks or more as stock filtered through. Since they have mostly centralised purchasing and pricing with some local autonomy I wonder if it was a mistake, they don't actually make too many, I've checked on a number of their "ridiculously low" prices and been told they are just short-term specials. Maybe DM are the "cowboys" here?

Re Price comparisons, your points are valid, but there are in fact quite a number of reputable smaller retailers out there that aren't cowboys and will do good deals with good service, Auswine being one of them.

A question on your site RB. How do you go about getting all the price comparisons ? Must take you a while to get all the correct information ?

[Red Bigot]

A question on your site RB. How do you go about getting all the price comparisons ? Must take you a while to get all the correct information ?

Send me an email if you are really interested, Gavin is very tolerant of me having a link to my home page, but I don't want to make a feature of discussing the details of the RBG page here.

[TORB]

A question on your site RB. How do you go about getting all the price comparisons ? Must take you a while to get all the correct information ?

Well he is retired now so he has nothing else to do with his time. ....ducking for cover.

[Ratcatcher.]

Don't be too critical of people who shop around for price. Not everyone has an unlimited budget and they want to maximise their drinking pleasure and broaden their experiences.

My wine budget for any given year is only about $1000 so at $35 a bottle I could only get 30 odd bottles so my normal buying range is around $15. I can't afford to pay $55 for wine that I really want that could potentially be in the bin ends at $30 in six months time because if I did that 6 times a year I would have to miss out on 6 other bottles or 10% of my total bottles purchased.

That gives me a bottle a week plus a handful of special occasion bottles.

Make an allowance for quaffers etc and that means I usually only buy 6-12 higher priced wines a year so price is very important to me. The difference between $35 and $55 is a big deal to me because if I wanted 2-3 the difference would reduce my other purchases for the year by around 5-10%.

So I shop around desperately for good wines in the $25 - $40 range slashed to $20 and under. If I didn't I could only have 1 bottle a fortnight or I'd only be able to drink up market quaffers.

So spare a thought for those on a limited budget before you scoff at bargain hunters.

[Davo]

Don't be too critical of people who shop around for price. Not everyone has an unlimited budget and they want to maximise their drinking pleasure and broaden their experiences.

My wine budget for any given year is only about $1000 so at $35 a bottle I could only get 30 odd bottles so my normal buying range is around $15. I can't afford to pay $55 for wine that I really want that could potentially be in the bin ends at $30 in six months time because if I did that 6 times a year I would have to miss out on 6 other bottles or 10% of my total bottles purchased.

That gives me a bottle a week plus a handful of special occasion bottles.

Make an allowance for quaffers etc and that means I usually only buy 6-12 higher priced wines a year so price is very important to me. The difference between $35 and $55 is a big deal to me because if I wanted 2-3 the difference would reduce my other purchases for the year by around 5-10%.

So I shop around desperately for good wines in the $25 - $40 range slashed to $20 and under. If I didn't I could only have 1 bottle a fortnight or I'd only be able to drink up market quaffers.

So spare a thought for those on a limited budget before you scoff at bargain hunters.

And who was scoffing at bargain hunters?

Certainly not me.

And the St Peters 2002 for 1 is a bargain, as was the 1998, even at $50 a bottle. Why? Because they more than hold their own against wines that are 5 or more times the price.

I love a bargain, and yes I buy plenty of wines around the $20 mark. Used to be the $15 mark, before that the $10 mark, and years ago the $2 mark. You get the picture. But then in 1976 I could have bought a Holden Kingswood for under $2000.00 (Instead I bought my Laverda Jota for about $600 more) and Grange was $15 a bottle.

Time and tide, and the price of wine, weetbix and cars, wait for no man.

[Murray]

I don't see how (polite or otherwise) pressure on retailers to maintain a price point doesn't constitute illegal activity.

Brian,

It is illegal under the Retail Price Maintenance provisions of the Trade Practices Act:

The Trade Practices Act 1974 prohibits resale price maintenance, that is suppliers, manufacturers and wholesalers are prohibited from specifying to retailers a minimum price below which goods or services may not be resold or advertised for resale.

[Red Bigot]

I don't see how (polite or otherwise) pressure on retailers to maintain a price point doesn't constitute illegal activity.

Brian,

It is illegal under the Retail Price Maintenance provisions of the Trade Practices Act:

The Trade Practices Act 1974 prohibits resale price maintenance, that is suppliers, manufacturers and wholesalers are prohibited from specifying to retailers a minimum price below which goods or services may not be resold or advertised for resale.

Thanks Murray, I actually knew the particular provision, I was just fishing to find out how far a wine-industry company marketing employee ("Andy Kayne") would go in admitting to the world that the practice continues despite 30 years of the TPA. I've heard of quite a few instances of this practice over the past few years, but this is the first time I've seen a purported industry insider admit it on the internet. It happens in other industries as well, the ACC web site has a long series of summaries of recent successful prosecutions for this illegal activity.
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/search/i ... &submit=Go

Perhaps "Andy" should hope the ACCC isn't watching or that he had the foresight to use a pseudonym. He's probably pretty safe though, no retailer who wants to stay in business would be game to complain about it.