The Auswine Forum

Speaking of Viognier addition to reds Click Wine Group has come up with le Freak that has 15% Viognier. That's fifteen percent!

They describe the practice in this way- There’s an ancient French winemaking tradition of adding a small splash of aromatic white Viognier grapes to a bold red Syrah. Practiced in the great Côte-Rôties of the Northern Rhone, this tradition is little known by the average wine drinker because such wines tend to be prohibitively expensive. Really! I guess Peter Click has lost touch with New World Shiraz/Viognier mixes.

The Syrah and Viognier in le Freak are co-fermented and the wine will sell for $14.99 (I presume thatÂ’s USD). See here for more details.

Mike

Never saw the need to add Viogner to our style of Shiraz. From what I've seen its not for big bold Shiraz, Its for wimpy green styles to add body and mouthfeel. In France they aren't allowed to add acid so it can be used to adjust musts. Haven't seen a single really big Froggie Shiraz by Aussie standards, and what they regard as big is bantam weight at best!

I see excessive apricot charachters as a fault in the style, though I do concede they are very ready to drink and soft. I don't think they will age! The other thing this does is cover green fruit, and you can have unripe fruit in quite high maturity fruit. The trick is evenness!

Cheers
Smithy

smithy wrote:8)

Haven't seen a single really big Froggie Shiraz by Aussie standards, and what they regard as big is bantam weight at best!


Cheers
Smithy

Maybe for 2003 vintage you might ... Tom on the Uk wine forum has found "One of Jadot's Moulin a Vents Crus is 15.8% ABV in 2003..."

This is Beaujolais (you know, that insipid light quaffing red )

Ian

Smithys right, viognier would look stupid in his style of wine.

Then again, that's why I don't drink his style of wine. All might, no majesty. Each to their own.

I see overt alcohol as a fault. I see good acidity in smithys wines, but I also see lots and lots and lots and lots of alcohol too, which to me makes them faulty to my taste.

viva la difference!

Greg.

Most Aus Shiraz from warmer regions don't need Viognier or if they do then very small amounts. Torbreck seem to have it just right but to my palate a whole swag of SV's are just too apricotty.

The only thing I'll say in the over Viogniered wines is that they do appeal to a large number of palates and are a particularly good entrance point to red wine drinking.

Greg, good to see you posting at last and not just lurking. Gary D, will you ever come out of the lurking closet and add your valuable words?

smithy wrote:In France they aren't allowed to add acid so it can be used to adjust musts. Haven't seen a single really big Froggie Shiraz by Aussie standards, and what they regard as big is bantam weight at best!

Yes they are allowed to add acid but they are not allowed to add acid AND chapitalise. It varies by AC though.

GW

Aussies aren't allowed to add sugar, but many a producer does. The French aren't allowed to both chaptilise and acidify, but many a producer does. Rules rules rules, and then reality. The only thing that matters is how the thing tastes.

Agree Mr.Guest, who really cares how it was made providing it's safe health wise.

I drink what's in the bottle, if it's got undeclared other variety, region or vintage, derzn't madder!

"All Might -No Majesty" Ouch thats hitting me where I live!
If you're seeing LOTS and LOTS and Lots of alcohol in my wines you must have the most amazing palate in the country, as nobody else seems to notice. (wine judges included)

Its all about balance. If its in balance who notices!
Could I humbly suggest drinking the reds a bit cooler 15 to 18 deg C
(like all reds) or keeping away from my big stuff. I appreciate that 17.5% alc are not for everybody, but I do a Cab at 15-15.5%.

I'll take my 5* Halliday rating (1 of only 2 in NE Vic for table wines), my cricket bat, ball, and go home

Cheers
Smithy

I suspect that both Clonakilla and Yering Station, largely on the strength of their respective shiraz-viogniers, will take their ***** Halliday rating and go home too. As I said, viva la difference.

Thanks for the compliment on having one of the best palate's in the country. I have been trying to tell people that for years.

Greg.

smithy wrote:If you're seeing LOTS and LOTS and Lots of alcohol in my wines you must have the most amazing palate in the country, as nobody else seems to notice. (wine judges included)

Its all about balance. If its in balance who notices!

You notice a 15.5% cabernet the next day when you have had 1/2 a bottle in the evening. You don't notice a 12.5 to 13.5% one too much and you can also taste your dinner. I don't mind the style though.

FWIW that 02 yering station reserve is buggered with French Oak IMO.

GW

Keep on batting Smithy, you can't please everybody all of the time !

Gary W wrote:You notice a 15.5% cabernet the next day when you have had 1/2 a bottle in the evening. You don't notice a 12.5 to 13.5% one too much and you can also taste your dinner. I don't mind the style though.

Gary,

Assuming a wine is 13% alcohol and you drink a half a bottle you will have consumed 750x.5x.13 = 48.75 "units" of alcohol.

Assuming the wine is 15.5% alcohol and you dank half a bottle, using the same formula, you would have consumed 58.12 "units" of alcohol.

Thats all of 19.2% more alcohol by volume.

Assuming you pour three large glasses to a half a bottle, the 15.5% alcohol wine would be equivlent to .57% of a glass of 13% wine. Are you seriously saying you would notice the difference the next day between 3 glass and 3 1/2 glasses of 13% wine? Because thats the way the numbers work out.

TORB wrote: Are you seriously saying you would notice the difference the next day between 3 glass and 3 1/2 glasses of 13% wine?

Yes (and I still can't taste my dinner). I am a obviously a very finely tuned drinking machine....

GW

And who only drinks 3 glasses? come on...

TORB wrote:

Gary W wrote:You notice a 15.5% cabernet the next day when you have had 1/2 a bottle in the evening. You don't notice a 12.5 to 13.5% one too much and you can also taste your dinner. I don't mind the style though.

Gary,

Assuming a wine is 13% alcohol and you drink a half a bottle you will have consumed 750x.5x.13 = 48.75 "units" of alcohol.

Assuming the wine is 15.5% alcohol and you dank half a bottle, using the same formula, you would have consumed 58.12 "units" of alcohol.

Thats all of 19.2% more alcohol by volume.

Assuming you pour three large glasses to a half a bottle, the 15.5% alcohol wine would be equivlent to .57% of a glass of 13% wine. Are you seriously saying you would notice the difference the next day between 3 glass and 3 1/2 glasses of 13% wine? Because thats the way the numbers work out.

Sorry to differ, but I know some people with very low alcohol tolerance who would notice the difference between 3 and 3.5 glasses; maybe not the next day, but definitely in their immediate level of inebriation. And I think I too would notice an almost 20% increase in my alcohol intake, say from my normal 7 glasses (based on 2 bot at dinner between my wife and I and the 3 glasses per half bot formula) to almost 8.5 glasses. I'm not much for hangover, but I would feel a bit more dehydrated the next day. I think this is something like a threshold level. Most of us might not notice the difference between 3 and 3.5 glasses, but if 3 glasses was our threshhold, as that 7 glasses is mine, we probably would.

Smithy wrote:

Never saw the need to add Viogner to our style of Shiraz. From what I've seen its not for big bold Shiraz, Its for wimpy green styles to add body and mouthfeel

Andrew, ever tasted a RunRig ? - not exactly wimpy

regards
Chris

Runrig
Tasted it. enjoyed it but not my style. Didn't really know it was a SV at all!
Bet it would have been pretty nice without the Viogner as well! My stuff is a bit more colored tannic and raw, not as polished and probably needing a few years. This seemed ready to drink.

Cheers
Smithy

Smithy,
I love your wines and am sure I will continue to. As far as I am concerned the alcohol does not show in the taste of your wines. The blending is quite seamless. The taste sublime. I just hope not too many find out about these wines so I can continue to enjoy them at a very reasonable price.
By the way GW, I can still taste my dinner whilst enjoying a beautiful, high alcohol, Rutherglen Shiraz and/or Durif.
MM.
PS - have you still given away the fags Dubya? They can ruin the taste buds more than alcohol.

I recall when trying a line up of about 40 Cote Roties recently, it was mentioned in the olden days up to 10% viognier was added ( could be 15% ). Few modern CRotie producers add more than a few percent.

I came accross a producer at the tasting who made Cote Rotie the old fashion way, with huge dollop of viognier, 10% ( again maybe 15% ). It was awful. But did not taste unlike a few Australian producers who fail miserably at the style.

Like Australian attempts at CNP, I think few come close to Cote Rotie.

I have to concur, as mentioned previously, you can add acid in France, however, given the Climate of the Northern Rhone, acid additions are not quite at the fore as they are here is oz. Remember that degredation of acids is virtue of climatic features, heat, light, diurnal range, shading so on and so forth. As for the use of both, its simple it generally isnt required (as a consequence the rule works in the favour) a year where the weather has been warmer will lead to higher carbon assimilation, with an increased degredation of acids, hence forth, acid may be required, and not chaptilisation.

Secondly, it is illegal to add sugar in oz, but not illegal to add concentrate, I am sceptical that many would add sugar, with the features and variance of grape juice concentrates available on the market.

In my opinion, Viognier can work in Shiraz (from any distinct region - Australia). However, in stating that there are numerous ameiliorations and processes along the way which can also add, lift and detract from the production of Shiraz (at the fore of volatile production is fermentation). Personally, I think as a whole we as a winemaking nation are still getting our heads Viognier and associated blends, remember, it was only 2001 when there was only 2000 tonnes of the stuff harvested. It can make a very exciting and interesting blending component.