Still on 1998 wines

[GraemeG]

Drank my last 1998 Hardy's Tintara Shiraz (McLaren Vale) the other night. Very quickly evolved to show sweet, almost candied fruit - could have been a young grenache on the nose. I still find it virtually structureless on the palate; there's a little furry tannin left (although you need repeated glasses for it to build) but I can't really find any acid at all. The fruit is not raisined, but I still wonder whether it verged on over-ripe. It's alright to drink, if hardly profound - where did all those tannins go that it showed 4 years ago?

Also renewed my troubled relationship with the 1998 Chapel Hill Vicar. Lots of ripe black fruits, some charry vanillan oak aromas. A warm nose as well, although the palate is not as hot as I feared. There's a little tannins, and very soft acid. Tastes quite sweet, in a fruity way. Oddly, I find a bit of a mid-palate hole, which I wouldn't expect with a Cab-Shiraz blend. The big problem here is the length of finish which is depressingly short for such an initially impressive nose. I'd say this was the best of the four bottles of this I've had so far. Not worth the $30ish it cost upon release. Better off with Yalumba's Signature I reckon.

I don't think either wine will gain in complexity with further cellaring.

cheers,
Graeme

[FatBoy]

I've had a lot of trouble with 98 shiraz in particular in the last year. Fairly uninteresting wines, without the depth of flavour that S.A. 96's have shown.

Either they are
(i) genuinely short term wines that looked good young,
(ii) were never as good as the hype suggested
(iii) are in middle of the 5-8 year hole that shiraz often goes through

I'm hoping like hell for option (iii) and will wait a couple of years, but I certainly won't be searching them out at auction just in case it's not.

Note: I know there are exceptions, but very few where the 98 is genuinely outperforming the equivalent 96 at present.

[GraemeG]

Note: I know there are exceptions, but very few where the 98 is genuinely outperforming the equivalent 96 at present.

And this is no secret, either. I recall Rolf Binder, when asked to choose between the two vintages by me on WLDG chat over 3 years ago, unhesitatingly went for 96.

cheers,
Graeme

[Guest]

some 98 impression last 6 mths.

Tintara - same as GG
Dead Arm - Holding up
Fox Creek Rsv. - oaky, fruits underwhelmed
Brokenwood Rayner - tired
Meshach - losing steam
Grange - strong as an ox!!!
Command - exceptional
Octavius - excellent, drinking well now
Stonewell - ripe, residual sweetness, holding.
Hutton Vale - still an adolescent
E&E BP - losing structure
Turkey Flat - the name says it all
Seppelt St.Peter - blooming
Mitchelton Print - creammy, YUM!
Bros. in Arm - fantastic, drinking extremely well
Oddfellows - same as above
Prodigy - went on diet
Saltram#1 - no more "grunt"
Glaetzer - structureless

[Chow Chow]

opps, 4got to login.

1998 Langton's vintage of the century Hypo

[FatBoy]

opps, 4got to login.

1998 Langton's vintage of the century Hypo

Yeah, less than half of what you've drunk is excellent, you'd expect 80-90% in a truly fantastic vintage ...

Turkey Flat '98 disappointed me too.
I'll add ...
Balmoral Syrah '98 outdone by oak
Old Block '98 lost its fruit compared with 2 years ago.
St Henri '98 - no better than the "inferior" '97

What hasn't been addressed though is whether it truly is a hit and miss vintage, or whether there are a number which are in a hole.

[Chow Chow]

In fact some of the premium '94 I had are holding well too. 96 was exceptional and the WOTV for me was E&E Black Pepper.
But upon released, nothing beat the '98 for it's youthful exuberant.

[Red Bigot]

Fatboy, my comments interspersed with yours. In general I think all of these wines (and some of those in Martin's list that I have) are far to young to be making a final assessment.

Turkey Flat '98 disappointed me too. Come back in 2-3 years, I agree the 96 is better though
Balmoral Syrah '98 outdone by oak Come back in 4-5 years
Old Block '98 lost its fruit compared with 2 years ago. Come back in 5 years
St Henri '98 - no better than the "inferior" '97 Come back in 10 years

What hasn't been addressed though is whether it truly is a hit and miss vintage, or whether there are a number which are in a hole.
I've had a few disappointments from 98 reds, but that happens with any vintage and I don't think the proportion is any higher from 98, judging by what I've sent off to auction this year, including Hardy's Tintara Shiraz, Leconfield Cabernets and Coriole Shiraz. If people truly like their Oz reds in the full blush of youth, they should probably drink them within a couple of years of release, otherwise my preferred age range for the reds I buy is mostly 7-12 years from vintage, I don't see this being a lot different for most of the 98 reds I bought.

[Guest]

Interestingly Hardy's Tintara and Chapel Hill Vicar were wines I tried from 98 but didn't buy although friends did. Maybe I just fluked avoiding those two.I'll get into the major 98s next winter but lesser 98s like Mamre Brook Shiraz, Majella Cabernet, St.Hallett Blackwell an Dutschke St.Jakobi have not disappointed, in fact the Dutschke is excellent by any standard.

I haven't been impressed with the past couple of Vicar releases nor with Chapel Hill generally, think they went off the boil from the mid 90s. Found a high level of cork taint in their wines too, even when I last visited their CD a few years back.

Eddie

[TORB]

Intersting comments Eddie. I loved the 98 The Vicar on release but it has done nothing but go down hill since. Normally, I would have thought that it was possibly in a hole and it would come out with time, but the 96 went downhill after release and never came out the other side.

The most interesting comment you posted was about the cork taint. I stopped counting awhile ago, but here is part of a letter I wrote to the winery some time ago. "As Chapel Hill has been a long time favourite wine of wine, I had a reasonable quantity of it in my cellar; in fact at one time it held the top spot for quantity stocked. To the concern, since I started this tracking I have opened up 37 bottles of Chapel Hill wines. Eight of them have been suffering from cork related problems (22%) and 3 from other problem (8%) which represents a 30% defect rate. In the early stages, I thought this may have been a statical abnormality but instead of getting better the rate is getting worse. I have attached the spreadsheet for your perusal. You will notice most of the wines are from the 94 and 96 vintage. The examples that are most concerning are:-

1996 Cabernet Sauvignon 3 out of 12 defective (multiple case purchase)
1996 The Vicar 3 out of 6 defective
1994 Cabernet Sauvignon 3 out of 9 defective
1994 The Vicar although these tracking numbers show there were 2 out 4 defective I remember that they were the only two in the dozen that were defective."

In response, they went on about the cork quality control and teating program, yet you found a hight taint rate too.

[Chuck]

Hi all,

I wonder how the '02 vintage will be viewed in another 4 years. My guess is generally Shiraz to be described as hot and lacking in balance and structure and Cabernets as good to excellent. Maybe blends will surprise with the more austere cabernets balancing the Shiraz's good but a little over the top fruit.

Chuck

[George Krashos]

2002 (at least in the Barossa) was a long, slow ripening coolish vintage which produced excellent acid balance in the grapes. Where do you see '02 shiraz being "hot" as the alcohol levels weren't excessive as far as I know ....

-- George Krashos

[Chuck]

14.5% - 15.5 % is over the top when the aicid and tannis are low and not in balance with the wonderful fruit from '02. Show me a vintage where the wine has been regularly above 13.0 - 14.0% and noteworthy. Judge, I rest my case.

Chuck

[Crow]

I am more worried about 2001 in SA being the hottest vintage for the past 26 years.

[TORB]

Show me a vintage where the wine has been regularly above 13.0 - 14.0% and noteworthy. Judge, I rest my case.

Chuck

Chuck,

I just had a look at a few vintages for Grange from the 80's and there are readings of 13.3, 13.9 and 14.2

Just because a wine is higher in alcohol doen not mean that it is not in balance and will not age well.

As far as 02 Shiraz goes, I have everfy confidence that it will prove to be a terrific vintage in much of McLaren Vale, and many Barossa producers. As in all these tings, time will tell.

[Davo]

and teating program,

How does one get involved in this program TORB? I would love to give it a go. (Just milking it for a laugh). [/i][/b]

[Smithy1]

Chuck,
a lot has been said about high alcohol and hottness.
Too much probably!
Its about balance... is the fruit in balance with the oak, acid , tannin and alcohol. Does the alcohol stick out! Does it leave you with an indigestion like dragon breath..... blowing flames across the room.

I've made balanced dry red at 17.5% alcohol and seen balanced sweet whites at 6%.

Its not the alcohol as such... its a style thing, big black inky things can be fairly warm, just don't drink them at 30 deg C.

Cheers
Smithy

[Bud]

Smithy, Which winery do you represent?
Would love to try some 17/5%

[JamieBahrain]

I think true wine balance involves harmony, sophistication perhaps even finesse. This being more apparent from drinking great wines from all around the world.

Perhaps old world balance and new world balance lost in translation?

Many Australain wines that are "arguably" balanced do seem to be walking a vinous tight rope- a little time in the cellar inevitably seeing them fall over one way or the other.

[didgidee]

I am more worried about 2001 in SA being the hottest vintage for the past 26 years.

BUT, it was a Super great vintage for snorkelling and drinking chilled Geelong Brewing Company Premium! Who knows, with global warming
TASMANIA may become the neuvo de riguer for monster reds!

don't worry, be happy [for the sunshine]

> dave

[707]

Well, I've spent Xmas week away from all the Xmas crap and done the smart thing - a few days in the Barossa and a few in Coonawarra. I'll write up a brief set of tour notes in the next few days, there was some outstanding hospitality, some great wines tried and a great new discovery.

The great 1998s? are they falling over?

If you like your wines with big up front fruit then you should have drunk them by now, they are after all SEVEN years old, they won't still look like they did at two or three.

The 98s I've looked at are travelling nicely, they look like seven year old wine should from a great vintage. Over Xmas I had a 98 Rufus Stone Heathcote, really lovely mature wine, no hurry to finish the rest and only $16. The 1998 Rockford BP Shiraz was a babe earlier this year, Saltram No.1 still too young.

It all gets down to purchasing selection, I don't always get it right, maybe 10-15% don't excite as mature wines, I drink most of mine from 6-9 years of age for general drinking.

Then there is the dreaded bottle variation brought on by that lump of tree bark which makes every bottle look different. If you pull out a lessere bottle then you tend to think that wine rather than bottle is not holding.

So 98s falling apart? not IMO but in another two to three years I'll have a better idea when I've opened a heap more of each wine I've got cellared.

[Smithy1]

Bud
We are Warrabilla at Rutherglen in NE Vic.
Our 02 Parola's Durif was 17.6% and did pretty well show wise..James Halliday even liked it! (Trophy Vic wine show 03)

our 04 Parola's Durif due out end of Feb 05 is also 17.5.
Its better tham the 02 in my opinion, better oak and fruit.
Cheers

Smithy

[707]

Smithy, loved your 02, my style of wine.

Look forward to the 04 in that case, just make sure sufficient is sent here to Adelaide, we do occasionally drink non SA wine, but only if it's that good!

[Chuck]

Hi all,

I agree high alcohol does not automatically mean it's out of balance. Take the '02 Gramp's Barossa Shiraz. After seeing it in 4th place in the Winestate annual best of awards I bought one to try before buying. Whilst at 15% it was truely wonderful with good tannin and acid matching superb fruit. It was decribed as an "old fashion style" as apposed to the new fashion Parkerised style.

My point is that many of the '02 Shiraz from Barossa and McLaren Vale are not balanced with the wonderful fruit too dominant and limiting the aging potential. It's just a shame given the potential for the vintage.

Chuck

[n4sir]

It's strange how four of the 1998s that have attracted the most criticism (The Vicar, Tintara Reserve, Wynns Black Label & Bin 389) I've tried in the last year, and all have been stunning. Different bottles & different palates I guess?

Possibly the other thing to consider is that I drank the wines over a considerable time after I have flushed them through with a breatheasy (or "that natty looking device" as 707 calls it) into a decanter, which should give them about a two hour or so kick-start (or so Max Allen says).

Cheers
Ian

[Chuck]

N4sir,

I have not tried the first 3 however consider the '98 Bin 389 to be the greatest since '86 and with age will probably exceed it. My mother, who tells me not to waste good money on wine for her, was stunned by it's sheer quality.

Chuck

[707]

Chuck, can't agree with your rating on the 98 Bin 389 but maybe I should put together a '98 tasting for the Blacktongues and include a Bin 389 just to be sure.

Hmm, licking my lips just thinking about the candidates for that lineup!

I'll keep you posted.

[George Krashos]

My bet is that the '96 would wipe the floor with the '98. I have a magnum of each - I'll get back to you in 2020.

-- George Krashos

[n4sir]

Chuck, can't agree with your rating on the 98 Bin 389 but maybe I should put together a '98 tasting for the Blacktongues and include a Bin 389 just to be sure.

Hmm, licking my lips just thinking about the candidates for that lineup!

You read my exact thoughts Steve, as it sounds like a perfect theme for a tasting next year. Make sure you get a few of the controversial wines I mentioned in the mix - it will be interesting how they fare completely blind. I can supply the bottle of the Bin 389 if it gets me on the panel!

My bet is that the '96 would wipe the floor with the '98. I have a magnum of each - I'll get back to you in 2020.

I thought the two were fairly evenly matched right from when the 1998 was first released (it was the only one of the Bin series I really liked). I had a bottle Christmas day (and the scraps the following few days) which appeared to be more advanced by the colour, but which was still a powerful and complex mesh of huge fruit and oak that's still indicates it's just a baby. Like George I won't be touching my magnums for a seriously long time - corks permitting.

Cheers
Ian