No longer fashionable

[Ian S]

Stealing an idea from another forum...

Which producers (or regions or grapes) used to be wildly fashionable, but are barely spoken of now?

Especially interesting would be examples where they were talked about a lot here on this forum, but now are seen as passé or are becoming forgotten.

[phillisc]

Oh Ian, this will be good

First one that springs to mind is Lindemans...a truly great brand and wonderful wines from the hunter, Padthaway, Coonawarra and probably other places, that are now on death row..."you make me smile Dr Lindeman"...has been largely euthanised.

Riesling, has it ever been in vogue?

Mildara, Rouge Homme, same as Lindies.

Angle Vale north of Adelaide, used to be a great sub region in its own right and many a good wine maker cut their teeth there.

Fortifieds, need to come back

Anyway, there's a start
Cheers Craig

[Sean]

Penfolds Bin reds.
Rosemount Estate.
Australian wine in the UK and USA. (That’s why Treasury is buying up more US brand names to sell to Americans.)
Australian Pinot Noir. (Not sure it ever was.)
Fox Creek Reserve Shiraz.
Marquis wines.
Hunter Valley names like Brokenwood, Lakes Folly, Mount Pleasant.
Tahbilk Marsanne.
Mitchelton Print Shiraz.
Queensland wines. (Only joking.)
Wines that scored big points from James Halliday.
Wines that got criticised by Jeremy Oliver.
Hillcrest.
Bannockburn.
Anyone who made Brett affected wine.
Bass Phillip wines.
Chris Ringland wines.
Tasmanian wines, eg. Freycinet.
Jimmy Watson Trophy winners.
d’Arenberg The Dead Arm Shiraz.
Warrabilla. (I had to check the spelling.)
Te Mata Coleraine.
NZ Sauvignon Blanc.
Hawkes Bay Syrah.
NZ Pinot Noir (even though everyone is still probably drinking it instead of Australian PN).
Shiraz Viognier.
Wild Duck Creek.
Leasingham Classic Clare Shiraz.
Mount Etna wines.
Clean skins.

OK that was a quick 30 without even really trying.

[felixp21]

Jimmy Watson Trophy.
believe it or not, it was HUGE 30 years ago. And I mean HUGE. Now pretty much irrelevant.

[saturn5519]

C,mon guys what about the good old Ben Ean Mosel and Liebfrauwine( Not sure on the exact spelling).
These wines were unbeatable at $1 a bottle.What more could you want.Only joking.

[Gavin Trott]

Riesling, has it ever been in vogue?

Anyway, there's a start
Cheers Craig

Its ALWAYS in vogue with me!

[tarija]

Barossa Valley
Heathcote
Chateauneuf du Pape

[sjw_11]

Shiraz Viognier.

Oh my yes, I recall a few years, maybe circa 2010-12 when every man and his dog was chucking Viognier into their Shiraz as if that alone made it a premium product! There were some absolute shockers out there.

Funnily enough I opened a Pierre Gaillard Côte-Rôtie 2020 last night with a whopping 10% Viognier that was absolutely fabulous, which proves it can be done, but perhaps best left to the experts!

[ticklenow1]

Penfolds Bin reds.
Rosemount Estate.
Australian wine in the UK and USA. (That’s why Treasury is buying up more US brand names to sell to Americans.)
Australian Pinot Noir. (Not sure it ever was.)
Fox Creek Reserve Shiraz.
Marquis wines.
Hunter Valley names like Brokenwood, Lakes Folly, Mount Pleasant.
Tahbilk Marsanne.
Mitchelton Print Shiraz.
Queensland wines. (Only joking.)
Wines that scored big points from James Halliday.
Wines that got criticised by Jeremy Oliver.
Hillcrest.
Bannockburn.
Anyone who made Brett affected wine.
Bass Phillip wines.
Chris Ringland wines.
Tasmanian wines, eg. Freycinet.
Jimmy Watson Trophy winners.
d’Arenberg The Dead Arm Shiraz.
Warrabilla. (I had to check the spelling.)
Te Mata Coleraine.
NZ Sauvignon Blanc.
Hawkes Bay Syrah.
NZ Pinot Noir (even though everyone is still probably drinking it instead of Australian PN).
Shiraz Viognier.
Wild Duck Creek.
Leasingham Classic Clare Shiraz.
Mount Etna wines.
Clean skins.

OK that was a quick 30 without even really trying.

Gee I couldn't disagree more with a few of them.

Lake's Folly sells out every vintage. Mount Pleasant has been on fire recently, some fantastic wines.
Bannockburn are making great wines consistently.
Tasmanian Chardonnay is also hitting it out of the park consistently.
Te Mata Coloraine has been extremely sought after for quite a while now.
Wild Duck Creek sell almost all of their wine on allocation, so doesn't see much retail.
There is some seriously good wines coming from Mount Etna.

But I wholeheartedly agree with quite a few others

Penfolds is overpriced (especially the reds)
Rosemount Estate has all but disappeared and what is available is inferior quality to what it once was. I drank a lot of Balmoral in the early 00's
Fox Creek Reserve Shiraz is the same as Rosemount. Drank plenty during the '00's. Had a '02 Magnum for my 50th that was stunning.
d'Arenberg are more about tourism now than wine quality, which is a real shame.
NZ Sav Blanc = vomit!
NZ Pinot Noir. I'm no Pinot drinker but tried plenty the last couple of times I've been over there and Aussie Pinot is heaps beeter.
Leasingham Classic Clare. As for Rosemount and d'Arenberg, a real shame.

But that is what makes the wine world so amazing. We all like/dislike something different.

So many wineries that I started my wine journey with are just shadows of their former selves. Lots have been bastardised by large corporates and some just disappeared.

Cheers,
Ian

[Ian S]

Jimmy Watson Trophy.
believe it or not, it was HUGE 30 years ago. And I mean HUGE. Now pretty much irrelevant.

I love the lateral thinking on this, and yes it's more of a 'mentioned in passing' thing now, rather than a guarantee of selling the whole production overnight.

As to why, whilst there have clearly been some absolutely worthy wines to win the award, the pre-requisite of (IIRC) max 2 year old did rather constrain what wines were presented, but also pushed it towards a 'instant appeal' style of wine. Perhaps too many dubious winners / wines that shone too brightly too soon as well? Do people trust the big shows more now? Or maybe the critic is king?

[Ian S]

C,mon guys what about the good old Ben Ean Mosel and Liebfrauwine( Not sure on the exact spelling).
These wines were unbeatable at $1 a bottle.What more could you want.Only joking.

and internationally the era of big brand sugar water gave us Black Tower, Mateus Rose, Blue Nun and others. Then there was Laski Riesling / Lutomer Riesling, Liebfraumilch and Screwcapped Lambrusco (which provided a massive hurdle for modern screwcaps to overcome).

[Ian S]

Warrabilla. (I had to check the spelling.)
Shiraz Viognier.
Mount Etna wines.

These 3 interested me especially, as I very much recall Andrew at Warrabilla being active here, and the wines being talked about a lot by others. Shiraz Viognier, especially in Canberra also was as hot as anything not all that long ago, but feels very much a very occasionally mentioned wine style now.

Mount Etna as well was massively trendy here as well, and although I was thinking "it's still mentioned", I reckon you're right, nowhere near to the same degree.

[Ian S]

Riesling, has it ever been in vogue?

Anyway, there's a start
Cheers Craig

Its ALWAYS in vogue with me!

Yep, I think interest hasn't abated here. Long term love, but seemingly never going to break into the mainstream, whether dry or sweet. Wine enthusiasts little secret bargain? I reckon so.

[Ian S]

Not so much here, but in the wider wine world, Maison Ilan (Ray Walker). From zero to hero, and then not stopping at zero on the way back, building a deeply negative reputation and falling foul of the French authorities.

[Ian S]

Plenty of prime examples here as well of brand managers and corporate execs f*cking over wineries with history, destroying the brand and its value in shockingly short spaces of time. Rosemount, Lindemans, Seaview but oh so many others. Indeed it feels amazing when a winery quietly survives and prospers under such management e.g. Wynns and even a winery like Baileys.

These feel less victims of fashion, and more victims of corporate ineptitude, rightly called out here over the years.

[JamieAdelaide]

Spending two weeks a month in the USA and I’ve been
pretty shocked at the demise of Aussie wine when we once darlings. That said, a colleague and I shared a bottle of Barossa Shiraz and he said it the best bottle of wine he’s ever tasted. He’s Lebanese so I said I’ll swap an old Ksara for a Basket Press ( I’ve heaps of Musar )

Sublime quality re-shines despite fashion. Although classes such as fortified and dessert seem to struggle. Had a magnum of d’Yquem this month and seriously thought it an unhealthy way to finish an evening.

[Sean]

Hey Ian

Yes all of these are excellent wines in their own right and deserve all the plaudits they get.

But they don’t get talked about as much as they used to be.

Compare them with say Wendouree, which gets a run on here every vintage release.

Understand it is mostly about the mailing list and allocations. Not so much about the wines themselves. The wines will sell out anyway.

They don’t need to be talked about, but they are.

Hunter Valley wines have a well established market in Sydney and with Sydney-based critics. But hardly seen outside Sydney - especially the best of them like Brokenwood, Lakes Folly and Mount Pleasant.

I still remember a trip to Hunter Valley and dropping into the Brokenwood cellar door in the late 90s. They had “The Graveyard has risen” scrawled in chalk on the back wall. Not only was it not on tasting, however, they had sold out.

I luv Hunter Valley Shiraz, probably the old style. I just don’t think we see much of it outside Sydney anyway.

Rosemount Estate got a mention, because it was hugely popular - in particular during the Chardonnay boom in the 90s. Now it is a nothing brand name and a pitiful remnant of what it was.

Other examples like WDC are just doing what they have always done. They make very good wines, and when people “discover” them they luv them. I probably could have added Craiglee, Best’s, Mount Langi Ghiran, TMBT, Main Ridge and a dozen more.

I guess the point I’m making is they don’t get talked about here as much as they used to. Not “fashionable” or getting so much attention anymore.

Compare them with say Sami-Odi that runs white hot here at the moment.

Those last 3 words might be indicative of what this thread is about?

Really interesting example actually.

Read an article about Adrian Hoffmann, 5th generation owner of the Hoffmann family vineyards.

He supplies fruit off the old Dallwitz Block for the Sami-Odi wines. Also for other Barossa wineries, including Chris Ringland, John Duvall, Torbreck, Glaetzer and Hayes Family. I think he says he supplies grapes to around 20 Barossa wineries.

So at a time when there is a bit of a yawn factor with Barossa Shiraz, there is also some excitement about it too.

Only a handful of names however. Is it the wine or who is talking about it?

Remember Robert Parker Jr?

[Ian S]

Had a magnum of d’Yquem this month and seriously thought it an unhealthy way to finish an evening.

For one person, possibly. I dread to imagine the sugar rush. Better shared, as most wine is

[Ian S]

Hi Sean
Hunter valley even more frustrating over here in the UK, as it was so rarely seen. I've got some Tyrrells and some Lovedale, but that's it. It's a true classic, perhaps the relatively small volumes means it still goes a little under the radar. I also like Hunter Shiraz, and that's not much more available either. I did manage to snag some (2000 vintage?) Tower Estate HV Shiraz at auction a good few years ago, and also had a Graveyard from the same vintage.

Pyrenees (great western) a long time favourite region, possibly my favourite in Australia. Never gets massive coverage though, but maybe yes it would have been a little more in the past.

Sami-Odi definitely the hot new thing, reminding me of how Woodlands burst onto the scene in Marg River (after a sleepy period).

I remember Robert Parker for sure. In part loving how he led his loyal followers to wines I didn't like, bumping up those prices, but allowing others to hold station . Conversely I also remember the increasingly strident and combative personality, that combined with his faithful assistant Mark Squires drove his own wine forum (the busiest in the world) into oblivion, through a swathe of bans. Much loved auswine forumite TORB (Ric Einstein) wasn't just banned, but they went to the trouble of banning any mention of his name by others (such references were coded into **** or *** ********).

With Parker's decline and retirement, a good number of wines like Kays Brothers, Fox Creek, Marquis Phillips fell swiftly out of fashion, and we still see them doing the rounds at auctions here, not quite circling the drain, but the demand and price they sell for (if at all) plummeted.

I suppose Parker and The wine advocate should be included in this thread!

[Sean]

Thinking about this some more Ian.

The biggest issue that I had with RPJ was just how one dimensional he made Australian Shiraz.

If it didn’t fit that big, extracted style of Shiraz, it didn’t sell particularly in the USA.

Years ago, I had a “discussion” with wine guru Randall Grahm about this on twitter.

He had made some pretty scathing comments about Shiraz from here - based on what RPJ was flogging at the time.

I suggested to him there was actually a richer variety of Shiraz in this country that many Americans were probably still unfamiliar with.

Yes a lot of Hunter Valley, Pyrenees, Heathcote or Adelaide Hills wine is flying under the radar here too.

Locally it was definitely James Halliday who had the most influence as a wine critic and wine judge. I think he was sometimes loudly adamant that RPJ big alcohol wines should be avoided.

It took a while for that to happen, but it has.

Meanwhile Brokenwood and Lakes Folly were James Halliday fav’s. They got a lot more PR when his opinion really mattered. Maybe not so much now.

Mount Pleasant definitely got a boost for a while with Campbell Mattinson and his Maurice O’Shea book. They get a pretty good run with the older reviewers (sorry Huon Hooke) anyway - if anyone still reads them.

Actually I did see a current vintage of the Rosehill Shiraz when I was browsing at my local a couple of weeks ago. Not seen it for a long time. It is double the price I used to pay. Double the surprise I suppose. Maybe I will buy a bottle now that I am thinking about it, damn it.

The Wine Front crew probably still carry a lot of weight with not just their subscribers, also a bit wider than that. Not sure they are at the level of trend-setters like RPJ was. They have an impressive wide-ranging coverage of wines they review. So they might have fav’s (eg. Hoddles Creek). But it isn’t just about that.

Taking a look at the Comments table on their website, you see a list of wines and the number of comments. How often do some of them keep popping up. Yes just checked it and a Sami-Odi wine is there. Is it the chicken or the egg when a wine is “reviewed”?

I have noticed in this country in particular that people in the wine media longer have obviously developed relationships or friendships with winery people. That seems to be inherent to the wine industry here generally. Everyone seems to know each other - it is a bit like a fish bowl.

So it is no surprise if it is also the same with people here on the forum. If you like the people at the winery and have got to know them, you will be buying their wines.

It is not always authentic like that everywhere however.

It is interesting the way a wine name gets bandied about all the time it seems - for a while anyway. It becomes a must-have wine for some of us. Hey you gotta at least try it if everyone is talking about it, don’t you? Then sometimes the urgency just might go lukewarm. Or something else catches your attention.

I am still talking about wines by the way.

Also a wine style that gets a run with the critics until it doesn’t. Natural wines? Biodynamic winemakers? Funky Pet Nat labels? It is literally just fizz, isn’t it.

The social media frivolously pushing all this in its various forms has evolved too. Gone are most of the old independent bloggers and replaced by photo happy Insta’s who are plugged into winery PR wheeling and dealing.

Don’t worry about whether they are working for the winery or the consumer anymore. They really are just working for themselves.

Fashion isn’t just the clothes (or wine). It is all about the groovers and shakers telling us about it and how they do it.

Here on the forum I see very little of that thankfully. Rather it is just talk about what we like for real or what we have been drinking for a long time. Not just the latest fad name.

I know this place well enough that I can post about a Pinot Gris I have been drinking, and there is the sound of crickets afterwards.

[Ian S]

Hi Sean
I think many of us are past the grooving and shaking stage The joints can't take the strain.

Ironically, one of Parker's hooks was his supposed distancing from producers/distributors, dissing the English establishment for alleged 'cosy' relationships, and fwiw I think there was some truth in those accusations. As you say, it's a natural tendency unless a critic both fiercely avoids it, and is very open about declarations of interest, to remove the temptation. The latter years of TWA saw some embarrassing examples of obvious conflicts of interest, but maybe he was more diligent when he started.

Yes, it was a strange caricature of the Aussie wine scene that TWA/Parker promoted, and hence the US perception became horribly skewed. There was less buy-in to Parker in the UK, but those sad remnants revolving round the auction scene shows we weren't totally aloof. I was luckier having got exposure to Aussie wines via the double front: The Australian wine bureau was a tireless promoter, but alongside their efforts Oddbins retail chain was delivering a punk-like blow to the established wine scene and Aussie wines were always at the forefront of their offering. Glory days, and adding in the stunning value of the era, and it was a major reason I got into wine.

[Ian S]

...and just for you... a pinot gris tasting note from a radical but popular natural wine producer:
2018 Meinklang Pinot Gris Graupert - Austria, Burgenland (23/03/2020)
Rosé / orange coloured and somewhat hazy.

Pleasing grapey / grapefruit / oatmeal savoury nose

Grapefruit also coming through on the palate, though without the fierceness also associated with the fruit. Oatmeal comes through as well along with an unusual hint of hops on the finish. Somewhat sour-edged acidity is reasonably firm but not overpowering.

Overall, unusual for sure, likewise interesting. I'm not sure I'd buy again - it's perhaps too unusual.

Day 2 and also a little warmer. A notable pffft! as the cork removed, but not any noticeable fizz. The hoppiness really comes to the fore, wine or IPA, I'm finding the boundary blurred.