The Auswine Forum

TiggerK wrote:Those freak wines from an era long past, like this (Peppermint Pattie), some of the Woodleys Treasure Chest and of course the legendary Penfolds Bin 60A 1962 do so much for the standing of Australian wine on a world scale. "Gentlemen, you shall all stand in the presence of this wine!". I wonder what wines of the current era could have a chance at such longevity and true greatness? (if any)

So I'm starting a new thread on this for the sake of fostering some discussion. We know the legends of the past like the ones above, also wines like Riddoch 1982 and Grange 1955, amongst others (I would add Penfolds Bin 90a in here as well). So what about the current generations of wines? Some say the winemaking techniques in the 40's, 50's and 60's were less 'formalised' shall we say, resulting in occasional freaks of nature where all the viticulture and winemaking elements came together and somehow created something far greater than the sum of its parts. So can that still happen? Time will tell of course, but we can look back at this thread in 30 years time and perhaps be proven correct, or proven to be way off the mark! (Yes Gavin, we request for Auswine to be here in 2048 ). I've gone with 1996 as a starting vintage since many 96's are still too young, but do have potential to be truly great. But ideally I'm looking for even more recent wines. Feel free to add in wines from around the old and new world, but the focus for this thread is more on the potentially great wines of Aust/NZ rather than a debate on what is the greatest Bordeaux or Burgundy from 2010.

So.... what wines from vintage 1996 onwards do you think have a genuine chance of becoming legend, in the same way as the legendary wines we know of from yesteryear?

I'm going to kick off with a few AU/NZ wines I can think of straight away...


Seppelt Dorrien Cabernet Sauvignon 1996
Wynns John Riddoch 2004
Best's Thomson Family Cabernet 2010
Holyman Chardonnay 2015
Kumeu River Mate's/Hunting Hill Chardonnay 2013
Crawford River Reserve Riesling 2005
Luke Lambert Nebbiolo 2010/2012
Te Mata Coleraine 13/14/15/16
Tyrrell's 4 Acres Shiraz 2014/2017
Tyrrell's Johnno's Shiraz 2017
Clonakilla SV 2008

Based on Ian's palate, I've been rescuing a few Ch Reynell Basket Pressed Cabernets 1998 from auction and putting them into proper storage. I did the same with Dorrien 1996 based on David's obsession a decade plus ago ( hope he's travelling well these days )

Now Coleraine, what happens with the legendary 1998? Beautiful, plush wine but I don't believe it achieved the heights expected? So I'm circumspect here.

Should be a great thread- I'm sure speculators will be thrown off the scent with a few wild calls.

I think Coleraine (and Le Sol, plus some of the single vineyard Hunter Valley wines 4 Acres etc) have undergone a stylistic shift from around 2013 with more emphasis on delicacy, less oak, purity and elegance in the fruit, not as overripe etc. I expect this is a slight return to it's original style after the Parker era of the 2000's decade, but now boosted by extra vineyard age and refinements in equipment and winemaking skills. Probably a touch of global warming doesn't hurt either in terms of achieving desired tannin ripeness without the fruit itself heading into over-ripeness.

Even the age difference aside, I think comparing Coleraine 98, 07 and 16 would reveal three very different styles of wine. Not having had the 98 on release it's impossible for me to say how it compares to the latest few vintages, but I've tried it (well cellared) a few years ago so do have some idea of the wine.

I'd say one, some or all of the 2014 Block range from Mount Pleasant.

up and coming candidate?

[url]https://brandsanews.com.au/coonawarra-famili ... sive-wine/[/url]

Matt@5453 wrote:up and coming candidate?

[url]https://brandsanews.com.au/coonawarra-famili ... sive-wine/[/url]

Probably not unless they a have a recent track record of producing great wine?

We just got over the Parkerized Aussie era of new wave, low acid fruit bombs, hitting the shelf weekly, now we seem to have the era of the weekly launch of unproven $100+ wines.

I don't think the wine needs to be super expensive to be a unicorn wine, although more often than not they will be. For me, a unicorn wine needs to meet the following criteria:
Rarity - it exists in small quantities and is very hard to find.
Longevity - it drinks well for decades.
Heritage - made by a famous producer/winemaker with a long history.
Bucket list-able - a wine that every wine buff wants to try before they die.
X-Factor - a wine that is totally epic and has that something extra almost no other wines have.

A couple other candidates not yet mentioned:
Cullen Diana Madeline 2015
Penfolds Grange 2004

Agree with Longevity, Bucket list-able and def X-Factor on that list Ozzie, but don't think they have to be rare or made by a famous producer. Doesn't hurt of course! Nothing rare about those two you mentioned. I suppose it's a Unicorn vs Legendary distinction perhaps.

A lot of these wines have already gone up in price a lot already. I doubt they will go up much more. Some aren't low price, either.

Although that's probably not what this thread is about

Its not Australian, but go long on 2007 Trevallon if you ever see it at auction. Trevallon is not a cheap wine, especially here, but I could see it taking off in the way Clos Rougeard has. The 1990 Trevallon is one of the wines of a great vinous year worldwide, but the 2007 is better.

Surely though, as worldwide warming continues, it’s going to be age-worthy, complex whites that become more and more popular. So top Semillon or Chardonnay. Eg the first screw cap Vat 1.

deejay81 wrote:I'd say one, some or all of the 2014 Block range from Mount Pleasant.

+ 1

Also, 2012 Cullen 'Vanya' Cabernet Sauvignon

JamieBahrain wrote:

Matt@5453 wrote:up and coming candidate?

[url]https://brandsanews.com.au/coonawarra-famili ... sive-wine/[/url]

Probably not unless they a have a recent track record of producing great wine?

We just got over the Parkerized Aussie era of new wave, low acid fruit bombs, hitting the shelf weekly, now we seem to have the era of the weekly launch of unproven $100+ wines.

Doesn't this belong in the most expensive wine thread, thought Coonawarra was a typo and surely they meant Barossa
Cheers
craig

Tim, trying to respect the post 96 era but...
Wynns Centenary
Wendouree 90 Shiraz
Bests Thompson's Family 98 Shiraz
Something from Dan Standish...

Cheers
Craig

Ozzie W wrote:A couple other candidates not yet mentioned:
Cullen Diana Madeline 2015
Penfolds Grange 2004

TiggerK wrote:Nothing rare about those two you mentioned.

Agreed. But given enough time they will become rare. They aren't unicorn wines yet, but perhaps in the future, as per the thread title.

phillisc wrote:Tim, trying to respect the post 96 era but...
Wynns Centenary

I bought a case of the Centenary on release and after the first bottle thought it was a pretty smart wine and just kept drinking them until they were all gone. This was early on in my drinking life and I learnt my first hard lesson when trying to buy more. All gone. Would love to try one now. It was pretty special 20 years ago. Some say it's now a freak wine so I guess it qualifies. Bin 90A is my pick for the list.

Carl

at the risk of causing the forum to melt down, I just dont see cullen's aging well. Probably just me....


Anyhoo.... to add to this list (i will update as I think of more)


2005 Gibson Australian Old Vine Collection Barossa Shiraz
1998 Bowen Estate Ampelon

For me, modern Grange is a totally different beast to those iconic wines from the 50's and 60's under Max. I honestly don't rate any of them beyond the 1976 as being something super special, and certainly none from this century.
I believe the 1991 Wynns Centenary will become a modern classic.... if well stored, this wine is still young. Notes that say it is tiring are certainly from bottles with poor provenance.
I also have very high hopes for a SV Barossa shiraz, the 2005 Two Hands "Bella's Garden". Whilst this marque has a longish line of successful wines, the 2005 stands head and shoulders above any other vintage, and again is still an infant at age 13.
I agree with the comments about the Mount Pleasant 2014 wines, the 1946 Rosehill will be a shining star in 30 years. So many Hunter wines from 2014 will be sensational, but maybe this is the best of the lot. (strangely, I think this is better than the 2014 Maurice O'Shea)
Beyond that, I don't see much that would lend me to believe that the future will bring them fame, but my experience of Aussie wines has diminished greatly over the past decade, so I am certainly no expert!!!

1999 Vat 1
2005 Vat 1
1998 Vat 47
2005 LEAS Chardonnay
2008 Grange
2002 Lakes Folly Cabernets

TiggerK wrote:I'm going to kick off with a few AU/NZ wines I can think of straight away...


Seppelt Dorrien Cabernet Sauvignon 1996
Wynns John Riddoch 2004
Best's Thomson Family Cabernet 2010
Holyman Chardonnay 2015
Kumeu River Mate's/Hunting Hill Chardonnay 2013
Crawford River Reserve Riesling 2005
Luke Lambert Nebbiolo 2010/2012
Te Mata Coleraine 13/14/15/16
Tyrrell's 4 Acres Shiraz 2014/2017
Tyrrell's Johnno's Shiraz 2017
Clonakilla SV 2008

I remember buying a 96 Seppelt Dorrien for about $25 at auction. Years ago. It was brilliant.

Wendouree 2013 Cabernet Malbec sounds the goods too... but then many Wendourees might qualify

I don’t think 1996 Bin 389 truly qualifies as a Unicorn wine but it certainly outshines many other wines of its ilk and for me, at least is a particular highlight.

2011 Crawford River Noble Dry.
I think it fits the criteria. It's certainly one of the most interesting, delicious wines I have had, and they only made it that year.

Much better cellaring conditions these days will be a help .

Tyrell's Vat 1 1999. So far it has hardly moved. At nearly 20 years, it tastes as though it was bottled last year.

Rossco wrote:at the risk of causing the forum to melt down, I just dont see cullen's aging well. Probably just me....

Mixed experience here: 2001 definitely fared better than 1998 and 1999. The price rises have long since been too much for me, though I'd stump up for their Chardonnay again.

Ian S wrote:

Rossco wrote:at the risk of causing the forum to melt down, I just dont see cullen's aging well. Probably just me....

Mixed experience here: 2001 definitely fared better than 1998 and 1999. The price rises have long since been too much for me, though I'd stump up for their Chardonnay again.

2001 still looks like plenty of time left

JamieBahrain wrote:Much better cellaring conditions these days will be a help .

Tend to agree. So much crime against wine.
A buddy of mine had some decent stuff just racked up in the corner of his dining room next to a window.
I enforced the purchase of a small wine fridge. He obliged and now owns a small 50 bottle fridge for the 'good stuff'.

Screw cap closures and correct cellaring will open the door to many other runners.
I'm still deciding where I'm gonna throw my chips on this one.
I keep thinking riesling. But what?!

Great thread/topic by the way!

I wondered about riesling too Scotty. After being a buyer an for a long time, cellaring them for a long time, and now having tasted the great rieslings of the world and travelled to all the great riesling areas, I feel Australian riesling tends to lack variation and is relatively boring.

That said, there will probably be a rise in "freak" riesling wines thanks to screw cap and better cellaring. So I'm not dumping mine at auction and leaving hundreds as curios almost.

You can pick up mature Aussie riesling at auction very cheaply so I'm drinking them. No revelations yet! Actually, I just paid a small fortune for the 97 Polish Hill to show to friends who own riesling vineyards in Europe.

Scotty vino wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:Much better cellaring conditions these days will be a help .

Tend to agree. So much crime against wine.
A buddy of mine had some decent stuff just racked up in the corner of his dining room next to a window.
I enforced the purchase of a small wine fridge. He obliged and now owns a small 50 bottle fridge for the 'good stuff'.

Screw cap closures and correct cellaring will open the door to many other runners.
I'm still deciding where I'm gonna throw my chips on this one.
I keep thinking riesling. But what?!

Great thread/topic by the way!

Steingarten
Richmond Grove
Leonay
Contours
Bin 51
Merle
Florita
Drumborg

??Grosset

Scotty have reasonable stocks of these, and I have looked at them over a decade or more
Grosset I can't make a call on at this stage

Cheers Craig

We have had this discussion previously
Am still looking for the thread
The wine should be of world standard
What comes to mind is

1977 Mt Mary Cabernet
1984 Seppelts Eden Valley Riesling
1973 1975 Leo Buring John Vickery wines
1982 Heemskerk Chardonnay-12.5% a Graeme Wltshire wine made with battonage
1982 Petaluma Chardonnay
Both Chardonnay had wonderful walnutty characters at 10 years old