Top gun Aussie Shiraz - when to drink?

[Jay60A]

Purely to generate discussion in the forum ... lot's of interesting folks here.

As I get older I get more and more amazed at how young "youngsters" are drinking some amazing Shiraz that seem to have years in the tank and are improving. With screw-cap it seems to me even more this is the case?

Caveat: I'm now 47 so at this point I can drink some aged wines I have laid down and still buy at a more reasonable price - in Europe maybe it can be easier to acquire them aged at reasonable prices and by the case (if selective and patient!) given the market here. Does not apply for all wines of course than have not widely been exported to Europe/UK, A few generate a spurious rarity value, but that's not so many imo.

In the last few months I have drunk - from memory - after 45 it seems to get hazier !! Rockford BP 96, 98, 99 and 04, RWT 99, Clonakilla SV 03, Edelstone 02. All lovely wines in their own right but the only one I would classify as "ready" and truly resolved for my taste are the 96 BP (at 20+ years), maybe the Clonalla (just).

Thoughts appreciated ... wisdom or dementia setting in?

[Chris H]

I tend to drink Shiraz with a bit of age on it, as often the fruit is a bit too assertive for me when very young. I think it improves with a bit of mellowness. The wines you mention all have plenty of fruit and to me fall into the category of needing some age to drink at their best.

Can also depend on your palate - I find spirits too agressive for my palate for example, so I probably have less tolerance than others,

[Cloth Ears]

Depending on who I'm drinking it with - friends/family/alone - and what I'm drinking it with - rich meat/cheese/alone(why did I mention that twice?) - I can drink a good shiraz fresh from release or teetering on the other side of it's peak.
An example of one extreme is the Warrabilla 2015 Parola, which is wickedly rich and full flavoured, yet is extremely more-ish (luckily we had 13 bottles and didn't want to break the seal on the case!)
On the other side of the coin, we've got a 1994 Leconfield that's just been unearthed. Could be vinegar, could be sweetness and light. But I'm betting there's no tannins between my tongue and what's left of the fruit.
I guess it's all about preference. I think that pretty much the only age I don't like is that half-way stage that a lot of whites (especially rieslings) go through. Otherwise I don't really have a preference for aged or young. But I do like nice...

[TiggerK]

A) Most wine is drunk young
B) Most people like younger fruity powerfully flavoured wine. (present company partially excepted of course)
C) Most people don't have large, well aged cellars.
D) Most older wine for sale here in Oz is either too hard to find / too expensive for many / / bad vintages / a risky buy due to unknown provenance.

But yeah fully agree most Oz shiraz is opened too young, and the good stuff needs 10-20 years. Just a luxury few have, or can be bothered having.

[Mike Hawkins]

For me, the better SA shiraz from good vintages need 20 years. Most of the 96s I've had in recent years have been too young for my tastes... Or at a minimum just entering their peak.

86, 90 and 91 are (generalisation) drinking superbly at the moment

[Ozzie W]

Very interesting topic, Jay60A. I think the answer to your question is merely that your palate has changed.

There's no wrong or right answer here, so it's nothing to do with wisdom. I used to drink lots of current release Aussie Shiraz and loved it. I think that's a pretty common trait when people start getting into red wine. It's the big fruity flavors, oak, etc. that attract them. I used to hate aged red wine.

But over the years as I took red wine more seriously my palate changed to the point where I no longer enjoy young Aussie Shiraz the way I used to and I usually avoid it these days. If I'm drinking big South Australian Shiraz now, I much prefer it with at least a decade of cellaring. For cooler climate Shiraz, a bit less cellaring. Many of the wines I immensely enjoy drinking today I would have poured down the sink a decade ago.

As for dementia, I read that drinking moderate amounts of red wine prevents it, so keep on drinking what you like.

[Con J]

Great topic. I think like most when I started drinking wine it was all too young.
As time passed my cellar grew and my palate changed. I enjoy drinking red wine with some age to them.

Now I treat good Aussie Shiraz like I would a good Aussie Cabernet, 10 to 15 years minimum and anywhere up to 30 years.

Cheers Con.

[JamieBahrain]

For me, the better SA shiraz from good vintages need 20 years. Most of the 96s I've had in recent years have been too young for my tastes... Or at a minimum just entering their peak.

86, 90 and 91 are (generalisation) drinking superbly at the moment

Very delicate palate there Mike.

But I do agree. Having cellared good SA shiraz professionally it needs a lot longer than what "expert" opinion suggested when I started collecting in the late 80's. We all know classic Barossa but even McClaren Vale goes the distance; contrary popular opinions in the 90's.

[Ian S]

There certainly might be an element of people new to the hobby, drinking what they have bought, but still putting bottles aside for later. This certainly was a factor for me in the early days of the hobby, never finding anything in the cellar that was 'ready to drink' so reaching for the closest thing, which may have only had 2-3 years from release. Looking back at the wines that went into Cellartracker when I first started using it, and are still there today, it reflects my heavily slanted Aussie wine buying of that time -
1999 Penfolds RWT
1999 Bests FHT
1991 Penfolds Grange
1998 & 1996 Wynns John Riddoch

Just 15 bottles left from what was ~ 150 bottles at that point in time. Plenty gone that would still be going strong now, included Bin 389 and Wynns BL from 1998. We had to drink something!

[ufo]

As I get older I get more and more amazed at how young "youngsters" are drinking some amazing Shiraz that seem to have years in the tank and are improving. With screw-cap it seems to me even more this is the case?


Are you implying that the wines are aging under screw cap, how dare you?
I hope the cork lobby doesn't find out about it

[Jay60A]

Interesting feedback.

I think there's a few dimensions to this, being luck enough to drink top aged wine of course is one of them. But to do that you have to NOT drink your wines and I get amazed at people opening say even 2010s (don't get me wrong, 1 of 6 to try is fine!).

I also think part of it is that drinking windows are way (way) off as it's not in manufacturer's interest to lay out the possibilities.
So wines that are are actually best at 20-25 will be marketed with a drinking window of say 8-20?

And I think the majority of people suspect it's all turned to vinegar after 10 years, certainly 15 ... until you have to have tried a few at 20 years to know that in good vintages they are still peaking.

fwiw I think the epiphany Australian wine (on aging) for me was Seppelts GW Shiraz 1991, acquired from auction at a cheapo price, drunk in maybe 2007. Lovely wine but obviously had 5 years of improvement in it. Drank it alongside 2004 St Peters and made a memo this wine just gets better and better.

Jay

[rooman]

Jay

It is an interesting topic and actually dovetails into a separate discussion on another topic,namely how many bottles do people of a particular wine. I generally buy 6 of a decent wine if I can. Other people prefer diversity and anymore than 3 is too much. Obviously its horses for courses. The reason I buy 6 however is that it allows me to try the odd bottle over the years without getting impatient and drinking the only bottle I have of a particular time. This way I do get some wines that reach their drinking windows.

The reality is that collect wine is one of the few hobbies where you genuinely can not rush the process. Sure you can buy at auction but then your fate is totally in the lap of the Gods and how good the seller's cellar was. To build up your own decent cellar however does take decades to get to the point where it is in the right spot. I have always regarded collecting wine similar to the toaster at the Qantas Club. You put your wine in the top and a decade or so later it pops out the bottom ready to consume. The trick to a good cellar is they start popping out the bottom at the same time you are putting the latest vintages in the top.

What you see on the forum is the younger collectors with younger cellars start trying wines early whilst many of the older collectors drift off (or die of old age). Hence the tasting notes are often, but not always, from new enthusiasts. I have also noticed that those with much older cellars often drift off to a couple of international boards where more internationally collectable wines are discussed.

Mark

[Polymer]

What you see on the forum is the younger collectors with younger cellars start trying wines early whilst many of the older collectors drift off (or die of old age). Hence the tasting notes are often, but not always, from new enthusiasts. I have also noticed that those with much older cellars often drift off to a couple of international boards where more internationally collectable wines are discussed.

I don't think that is true at all...

Lets just take Berserkers as an example...which is currently probably the most active wine forum anywhere....

You get old and young wines...you get the people that are disgusted when they see wines that have been consumed young..and other people that don't care....Neither is wrong....but a majority of the notes are from YOUNGER wines..

Why do younger wines get more coverage? Simply because there is more of them...easier access...it has nothing to do with how long they've been into wine...

If you look at the tasting notes from here..I'd say a majority are from 4 individuals.

n4sir
dave vino
camw
sean

And none of them are new enthusiasts...

Aged wine can be a beautiful thing..but it isn't the only way to enjoy it...

[Bobthebuilder]

The reality is that collect wine is one of the few hobbies where you genuinely can not rush the process. Sure you can buy at auction but then your fate is totally in the lap of the Gods and how good the seller's cellar was.

What you see on the forum is the younger collectors with younger cellars start trying wines early whilst many of the older collectors drift off (or die of old age)
Mark

Funny that you mentioned both these things in that post because I often wonder how many of those auction buys that come in great condition are from older collectors that have died and the beneficiaries have whacked their entire, impeccably stored collections straight to auction. Single vendor auctions especially.

[rooman]

What you see on the forum is the younger collectors with younger cellars start trying wines early whilst many of the older collectors drift off (or die of old age). Hence the tasting notes are often, but not always, from new enthusiasts. I have also noticed that those with much older cellars often drift off to a couple of international boards where more internationally collectable wines are discussed.

I don't think that is true at all...

Lets just take Berserkers as an example...which is currently probably the most active wine forum anywhere....

You get old and young wines...you get the people that are disgusted when they see wines that have been consumed young..and other people that don't care....Neither is wrong....but a majority of the notes are from YOUNGER wines..

Why do younger wines get more coverage? Simply because there is more of them...easier access...it has nothing to do with how long they've been into wine...

If you look at the tasting notes from here..I'd say a majority are from 4 individuals.

n4sir
dave vino
camw
sean

And none of them are new enthusiasts...

Aged wine can be a beautiful thing..but it isn't the only way to enjoy it...

I didn't say all older collectors drift off but rather many. Clearly there are people such as the 4 you listed but there are also a significant number of newer collectors who are just beginning on the path to obsession. over the decades I have watched a number of more experienced collectors who used to post drift off. Many of these were collectors with really big and old cellars. Thankfully some however have remained and I enjoy there posts to see how wines I may have in my cellar are tracking.

[rooman]

The reality is that collect wine is one of the few hobbies where you genuinely can not rush the process. Sure you can buy at auction but then your fate is totally in the lap of the Gods and how good the seller's cellar was.

What you see on the forum is the younger collectors with younger cellars start trying wines early whilst many of the older collectors drift off (or die of old age)
Mark

Funny that you mentioned both these things in that post because I often wonder how many of those auction buys that come in great condition are from older collectors that have died and the beneficiaries have whacked their entire, impeccably stored collections straight to auction. Single vendor auctions especially.

Funny indeed. After posting the above comment, I headed off to the cellar to get some wines for my birthday tomorrow, all of which are a tad young but are the first from a pack of six - 05 Clonakilla SV, 04 Mt Edelstone, 05 Pegau and some 05 Bouchard. The only oldish wine is a 99 JR. As I was collecting the wines, I kept thinking about this discussion but figured if I do collect 6 of each, I might as well try one of each now to justify half packs.

Anyhow whilst there, one of the other cellar owners came past looking for scissors. We got talking and it turns out he buy and sells older wines ie Bordeaux from the 50s/60s etc. He also has half a dozen original Bin 60As he is selling to one client. When I asked him where he sources his wines from, many are from deceased estates and selling the wines is the only way to balance the estate funds between the beneficiaries.

I have told the kids when I go, the wines are to be divided up between them according to their birth year - 05 to my son and 07 to my daughter.

Mark

[Polymer]

I didn't say all older collectors drift off but rather many. Clearly there are people such as the 4 you listed but there are also a significant number of newer collectors who are just beginning on the path to obsession. over the decades I have watched a number of more experienced collectors who used to post drift off. Many of these were collectors with really big and old cellars. Thankfully some however have remained and I enjoy there posts to see how wines I may have in my cellar are tracking.

Yeap, I know you didn't say all..I just think the correlation is wrong.

People move to other boards for many reasons...

The biggest one is probably - they start drinking other types of wine and want to learn more about it..Someone that is starting to get into wine in Australia probably visits and Australian wine board...But their taste for OLDER Australian wine isn't going to take them to WB or the UK Forum..because those forums don't discuss older Australian wine...

You might say people that enjoy aged Australian wine tend to gravitate more towards old world wines which would then make them gravitate towards other boards.....but enjoying aged Australia wine on its own wouldn't have any correlation to going to international forums that don't cover Australian wines at all or barely cover them at all.

I would also say, the reason why you seem more NEWER posters to forums is because they're the lifeblood of a forum...for any enthusiasts board...Not all older members stay around..they get bored...get interested in other stuff..maybe they've had their fill of forums or they just can't be bothered reading..or even just they don't care what anyone else says about wine so why go read about it? Yet someone new to a hobby or interest is seeking it out online and forums provide a wealth of information and a way to express their ideas, etc...

The main point is..most people go to forums that interest them..so if you're into aged Australian wine, you're going to visit a forum with information on that...If you have mixed interest then you'll go to whatever stuff you enjoy more...but if you want aged Australian Shiraz and hate burgundy, you certainly wouldn't want to read about Burgundy...

[Bobthebuilder]

The reality is that collect wine is one of the few hobbies where you genuinely can not rush the process. Sure you can buy at auction but then your fate is totally in the lap of the Gods and how good the seller's cellar was.

What you see on the forum is the younger collectors with younger cellars start trying wines early whilst many of the older collectors drift off (or die of old age)
Mark

Funny that you mentioned both these things in that post because I often wonder how many of those auction buys that come in great condition are from older collectors that have died and the beneficiaries have whacked their entire, impeccably stored collections straight to auction. Single vendor auctions especially.

Funny indeed. After posting the above comment, I headed off to the cellar to get some wines for my birthday tomorrow, all of which are a tad young but are the first from a pack of six - 05 Clonakilla SV, 04 Mt Edelstone, 05 Pegau and some 05 Bouchard. The only oldish wine is a 99 JR. As I was collecting the wines, I kept thinking about this discussion but figured if I do collect 6 of each, I might as well try one of each now to justify half packs.

Anyhow whilst there, one of the other cellar owners came past looking for scissors. We got talking and it turns out he buy and sells older wines ie Bordeaux from the 50s/60s etc. He also has half a dozen original Bin 60As he is selling to one client. When I asked him where he sources his wines from, many are from deceased estates and selling the wines is the only way to balance the estate funds between the beneficiaries.

I have told the kids when I go, the wines are to be divided up between them according to their birth year - 05 to my son and 07 to my daughter.

Mark

I would strongly encourage you to get them to join this forum and participate in offlines in the distant future

[rooman]

I would strongly encourage you to get them to join this forum and participate in offlines in the distant future
you know, so us young folk can fully appreciate the memory of rooman when his time eventually comes

God willing young fella I will be around for another few years to read your write up of the latest 2015 Kemneys Hidden Label Shiraz.

[Bobthebuilder]

Whoaaa
For an old bloke you sure do a mean kick in the nuts!

[Redback]

Good topic Jay60A. For top end Barossa/McLaren Shiraz, I try to hold out for a min 8 years before opening. Cooler climate, 12+. Having said that, I am enjoying 2011 Rockford Basket Press now, so vintage has an influence on drinking windows.

The oldest Reds I have tasted under screw cap have been from the 2004 vintage and these suggest that cellared under proper conditions, quality wines under this seal will drink well in 20+ years.

Trouble is that for someone like me, I have little patience and cellar capacity to wait that long.

[Jay60A]

I appear to have inadvertently started a wino-ageist thread which was far from my intention but rather amusing.

I now have to think where to go on this, I have been on the forum ages but not posting so much!! So -

1) Whatever age you are, you are probably underestimating how well and long some Australian shiraz wine wine ages, certainly I do.

2) The more I drink, the more it stuns me that some drinking windows are conservative to plain wrong. It's designed to get you to drink young and buy more... or because the maker is or has historically been worried about a dodgy piece of bark.

3) Banter here is still alive. Jeez I can see I'll be in the "old fella" category!

4) I am amazed this place has regenerated and is thriving. Why hasn't it moved to Facebook or more modern social media? I suspect some old fashioned Aussie egalitarian streak at play still in sharing, rather than networked... could be wrong. I still come here as there are probably only two places to really learn about Australian wine... here and Wine front which is the only wine related site I subscribe to, plus WinesearcherPro.

Okay ... so why do all you "young fellas" still come here without characters like TORB describing any non red as "c thru". Or CraigNZ with his fearless and frankly visionary scoring system out of 109? He was years ahead and a lot of critics would support this if they could find a way to use it without being ridiculed.

If you never have, check out TORBwine and the road trips. I learned so much and they are modern classics ... when I am World Ruler (soon, soon, patience Igor) they will be made compulsory reading and examined. Eg "what coffee shop in Angaston sells a legendary poppy seed strudel?". "What is the nickname of The Red Biggot's car"? Under 75% and off you go to the re-education camps to be forced to drink verticals of Barossa and McLaren Vale Shiraz.

Okay... dementia now seems to be confirmed, the old guy has gone loco. I'll check in a day to see where this has led...!

Tell me why Auswine still attracts though...

[bacchaebabe]

So I check in here after a long absence and this is the first thread I read. Last post made me laugh with the reminiscing of the TORB travel diaries. I edited quite a few of those so read them quite a few times.

To put forward one opinion on why people fade away from the board, for me I got too busy at work to spend hours pontificating on the interwebs about wine and I now tend to spend most of my free online time on facebook. But this was the first forum I joined back in the day over 20 years ago in 95 and it was a revelation in both wine knowledge and the youthful internet and online life (and quite a few offlines). But it's a joy to pop back in and see so many familiar names and avatars still here.

And to answer the original post, I very rarely drink top gun aussie shiraz young. But I have the luxury of a big cellar full of the stuff. For me it's more of a problem of having the occasion to justify opening a big gun shiraz. I tend to buy cheaper wines to drink every day so the better ones can rest quietly until they are nice and mature. And I do prefer my wines older. Even my cheaper wines I tend to drink with 7-10 years on them. I'm drinking a lot of $12-$20 07 Margaret River cabs / cab merlots now with the occasional 96/98 Barossa shiraz for better meals or meals with friends. I'm lucky in that I bought a lot of wines by the dozen when I was younger so have a lot left, I have plenty of storage space (or used to) and I got a well paying job just as the 98 vintage was starting to be released so bought up big. Now I tend to buy either 3-6 of good wines from good vintages only and dozens of quaffers that can go 5-10 years to keep it all ticking over and keep me in wine that is drinking at its peak or thereabouts.

I'll try not to be away for so long next time.

[Polymer]

2) The more I drink, the more it stuns me that some drinking windows are conservative to plain wrong. It's designed to get you to drink young and buy more... or because the maker is or has historically been worried about a dodgy piece of bark.

I think the windows are pretty conservative...It isn't a science it is very subjective...

Just like critic scores, some people look at them and think yes, that wine is a 97 point wine! But ultimately all that matters is what do you think of the wine..

I don't think this has to do with buying more...If your rate of consumption is the same it is just you'd cellar more....I'd even probably argue that if you convinced people they need to cellar, the upfront cost of doing that + drinking would mean even more business...

4) I am amazed this place has regenerated and is thriving. Why hasn't it moved to Facebook or more modern social media? I suspect some old fashioned Aussie egalitarian streak at play still in sharing, rather than networked.

Enthusiasts still use Forums/Reddit...Facebook is far too unstructured...Most modern social media is better suited towards casual users...

There are even meet ups for wine...but most of them seem to meet a wine bar...

Tell me why Auswine still attracts though...

It is the only board that talks about Australian wine..and for most people in Australia, it is what they drink...

I actually think the offlines have pushed a lot of new activity...Tons of lurkers on the board..and when they see that there are like minded people meeting up and sharing wine...it gets you excited about it..and you get even more into it...

I think as a result of this board I've probably met 30+ different people in the Sydney area that love wine just as much or more than I do...I'm sure almost everyone on this board is probably the biggest wine geek in their normal circle of friends..most of whom know nothing about wine...It is just nice to meet people with a similar interest..

[shirazphile]

I like to drink my Australian Shiraz with at least 10 years bottle age. I am constantly impressed with how good our Shiraz can age.

[Ian S]

There is much truth in top Aussie wine being drunk too young . I find even Jeremy Oliver a little cautious - preferring my wines fully matured and potentially beyond - Geoff Kelly seems to believe in drinking windows closer to my view of the world (though the brains of the operation disagrees and would generally be happy drinking many wines on release).

However there is also a healthy minority of reds that don't appear to become more complex, they just very slowly lose the vibrancy that they had on release, but don't reveal the rare / idiosyncratic flavours/aromas that appeal so much in the old wines that go the distance. It's not as easy as just saying 'oh they're the fruit bombs' as some of those can surprise with age.

[Michael McNally]

So I check in here after a long absence and this is the first thread I read. Last post made me laugh with the reminiscing of the TORB travel diaries. I edited quite a few of those so read them quite a few times.

To put forward one opinion on why people fade away from the board, for me I got too busy at work to spend hours pontificating on the interwebs about wine and I now tend to spend most of my free online time on facebook. But this was the first forum I joined back in the day over 20 years ago in 95 and it was a revelation in both wine knowledge and the youthful internet and online life (and quite a few offlines). But it's a joy to pop back in and see so many familiar names and avatars still here.

And to answer the original post, I very rarely drink top gun aussie shiraz young. But I have the luxury of a big cellar full of the stuff. For me it's more of a problem of having the occasion to justify opening a big gun shiraz. I tend to buy cheaper wines to drink every day so the better ones can rest quietly until they are nice and mature. And I do prefer my wines older. Even my cheaper wines I tend to drink with 7-10 years on them. I'm drinking a lot of $12-$20 07 Margaret River cabs / cab merlots now with the occasional 96/98 Barossa shiraz for better meals or meals with friends. I'm lucky in that I bought a lot of wines by the dozen when I was younger so have a lot left, I have plenty of storage space (or used to) and I got a well paying job just as the 98 vintage was starting to be released so bought up big. Now I tend to buy either 3-6 of good wines from good vintages only and dozens of quaffers that can go 5-10 years to keep it all ticking over and keep me in wine that is drinking at its peak or thereabouts.

I'll try not to be away for so long next time.

Good to see you posting again, Kris!

Cheers

Michael

[rooman]

I thought a lot about this thread on Friday evening and the discussion on the collecting thread about how many wines of individual producers do people collect. As Saturday was my birthday I decided to invite a few male friends down to Brown Sugar for red wine and red meat. It gave me an opportunity to crack open a few cases I have collected but not tried yet.As I thought all the wines were a young,I pulled the corks but did not decant at around 11 am in the morning.

First up was a Bouchard Clos de la Mousse 2005. Everyone has been saying its too early to open wines from this vintage and sadly this was true - far too young. Next up was a Clonakilla SV 2005. I had one of the 2003 last week which was just superb but sadly this wine which Walsh & Co rate 97 or so was far too young nothwithstanding having been had the cork pulled in the morning. From there we moved onto a Henschke Mt Edelstone 2004 but that was a solid tannic monster. Thankfully i have half a dozen and one day this wine will be fantastic but I doubt I will touch another for 10 years. The last Australian wine also fell into the opened too early category being a Wynns John Riddoch 1999. At least for this wine, JO recommends opening in 2029 which probably a fair call.

The only wine that was really open for business was the Domaine Du Pegu, Neuf du Pape 2005.. Compared to the top gun Aussie wines, this was superb and ready for business. Sadly however all the Aussie wines were at least 5-10 years too early.

Mark

[WAwineguy]

Jay

It is an interesting topic and actually dovetails into a separate discussion on another topic,namely how many bottles do people of a particular wine. I generally buy 6 of a decent wine if I can. Mark

Yes, but of how many vintages? That's when it starts to add up!!

[rooman]

Jay

It is an interesting topic and actually dovetails into a separate discussion on another topic,namely how many bottles do people of a particular wine. I generally buy 6 of a decent wine if I can. Mark

Yes, but of how many vintages? That's when it starts to add up!!

Ok so I freely admit I'm a vintage slut. Which means in bad years I will go off and buy something else. For some wines however like Clonakilla SV, St Peters Shiraz and Grosset Springvale I've got a reasonable vertical going back a decade or more. Over all however it also means the cellar is getting close to a couple of thousand bottles and I recognise that what was once a hobby is now approaching an obsession for which soon I will need serious help.