The Auswine Forum

Hi guys

I sat down this morning and took a bit of a look at my Cellartracker account to do a sort of casual/brief 'audit' of varietals, drinking windows etc, just to get an idea of where I am at.

I am reasonably happy with the amount of whites I have built up in a short period, the bulk of which have drinking windows from sort of now over the next 7-8 years, with a few with a slightly longer window.

I have also started building a bit of a stockpile of reds, with a reasonable spread of drinking windows from sort of 2016-2030, partly through buying just a few older bottles which are drinking well now to 2018-20 via auction. I plan on doing a little more of that to allow my own purchase on release reds to mature. It has been great to try a few wines like the '04 basket press, '02 and '04 dead arm, '06 Bi 0. I need to buy some more of this sort of wine and probably some more in the lower price bracket to make it more sustainable to drink now.

It occurs to me though that I have neglected a few areas which I should start balancing out over the next period of buying. In particular

- My cabernet stocks are a very small proportion of the overall number of bottles and I need to just start gently fleshing this out, especially with wine drinking 2020-2030.

- I need to stop drinking all my pinot as soon as I buy it and find some good Australian pinot that will age and be drinkable over the next 10 years

- I need to find some premium whites which will age and be drinkable 2025-2030 (or beyond) and start laying a few down now so that when I am nearing 50 I have some happy drinking . I am very partial to a good chardonnay, and white burgundy suggestions are welcome (albeit I know I may choke on the price). I think I need some more Vat 1 and similar Semillon too.

- I need to lay down some champagne, with only a handful in the cellar comprising '04 Moet, '03 and '04 Dom. The recent Sydney offline in Feb where I brought along an '02 Pol Roger and Andy bought along another '02 which I can't recall was a real eye opener. My wife and I both enjoy champagne and, apparently, aged champagne

- I probably need to lay down some fortified wine/port as I really enjoy this stuff and I know it takes time.

Some of these wines are wines I am just not familiar with from an ageing perspective, such as champagne and port, though recent samples have confirmed I do like them matured. Some are wines I am much more familiar with in terms of shorter term cellaring such as chardonnay and pinot. I am reading up and trying to work some stuff out myself but I would be really interested in any suggestions or hints, even if it is only a few particular recent vintages/regions to look out for. The problem is that it is pretty difficult to work out where the 'value' is and a lot of this stuff obviously isn't that easy to just find and taste.

Budget depends on varietal, obviously I don't expect to be buying a lot of long term cellar worthy champagne for $50 a bottle

Cheers.

No such thing as "budget" a Champagne" in Australia. That said, if you want to cellar some, focus on 2002 and 2008, and potentially 2004. Those from 2003 and 2005 probably won't have an extended life span

Thanks Mike, it is one of those things I am happy to buy smaller quantities of but go with real quality. I saw you bought some Taittinger BdB recently and I might have a mosey around for some as well. The couple '02 champagnes I have had were really excellent though I am not sure how much longer they would have? I will look out for some '08's in houses I am familiar with and see what I can stash away. Am I right in thinking that good vintage champagne can very well have 20 years in it? Does it go into a funk at all mid life like Riesling can or does it have more of a straight predictable age pattern?

2002 champagne will easily last 20 years, but it does depend how you like it. I have wine loving friends who prefer it old, others that prefer it young. I think I'm in the middle! But when you say 'young' with good champagne, that's typically 10-15 years on from the vintage! Aging patterns I think vary a lot between producers and vintages, hard to say there is anything predictable about it. Do as Mike does and buy it buy the case so you can try one every few years!

I've had great stuff from the 80's and earlier and with many decades, even when well cellared, many tend to become more a fascinating 'aged white wine', than a vibrant bubbly champagne, but some of the higher end stuff from great vintages will retain much of that youthful character, while gaining complexity. They can take on some oxidative notes and certainly head into a more 'caramelly' or 'sweet orangey' character, but again, this depends very much on producer, vintage and bottle variation. With vintages like 2002, I suspect the acid structure will ensure they age very gracefully indeed.

I'm drinking a Pol 2004 right now (wife's birthday), and loving it (from a Zalto Universal glass - so good for proper champagne). Easy 15-20 years to go, but I'd be preferring mine at a mid level of aging, maybe 5-8 more years. Pol 98 is a bit cork dependent, but when you get a good one, it's superb. Lanson 2002 is worth putting a few away, really good value, but I'd suggest getting the 'new' style label, as the old ones seem a mixed bag for cork and heat-affected quality.

I'm nowhere near Mike in terms of knowing all the producers and higher end marques, not even close... but my favourites (that I've tried), money no object, plus a few more budget options...

Pol Roger NV - even better with 2-4 years of cellaring, as are many good NV's.
Pol Vintage 96/98/02/04
Pol Roger Winston Churchill 98/99
Tattinger Comtes 2002 (wow, might be hard to find though)
Laurent Perrier 96/02
Dom Perignon 96 and Rose 96
Lanson 96 (and good bottles of 02)
Gosset Celebris 98
Krug NV is pretty awesome, and benefits greatly from a few years in the cellar.
Krug Vintage is pretty awesome too if you can afford it, but for me, most stuff above $200 gets a bit low in champers VFM. More in rock or rap star territory.

Suffice to say 96 and 02 are fantastic consistent years, grab it you can. I'm liking the few 04's I've tried so far too. Not seeing any 08's here yet really.

Of the smaller houses, there's tons of great ones, I've not had enough exposure, but Agrapart and Gimonnet are very good producers.

Cheers
TiggerK

It's not as easy to find Coonawarra Cabernet that is both good quality and good value, so look hard at Margaret River. There are many. If you can afford Wynns premiums then that's where your money should go if you want reliable long term stuff from Coonawarra
'12 is looking really good for Yarra Valley Pinot Noir if you're looking to top up. Get in there and start looking around. There will be plenty of good ones.
Fortifieds are interesting. Try Coates and Murray Street Vineyards they both make decent ones if I remember correctly

Bowen, Mildara and Redman make good long lasting Coonawarra CabSavs for reasonable prices. If you are impatient you can usually pick them up on the secondary market at very good prices - ready to drink.

Hi Scott,

totally agree with Mike and Tim re : Champagne. Just a thought, a NV such as Taittinger ,Laurent Perrier is good champers after few years in cellar, while you are waiting on the Vintage to come around.

Also, you may want to look into growers champagne as well such as Larmandier, Gimmonet , Agrapart . I find better value in these champers as well, for their Vintage and NV.
If you want something different, source out Huet Petilant.

As for the Vintage, depending on what style you like and from big house, there are Perrier Jouet, Taittinger CdC, Krug etc. In fact, if you are going to pick up some Taittinger CdC '04, pick up Krug 2000 as well - similar price point currently, and I think you will be pleased with those 2 starting say in 10 years time, and will last and improve even longer than that. Bear in mind Salon S 2002 has just been released as well

Cheers
Andy

Oh the '02 I brought was Gimmonet Fleuron.

As for cabernet, don't forget Lakes Folly, Voyager Estate, Yarra Yering. And of course there is BORDEAUX as well

For Pinot, have a look at By Farr Sangreal, Bindi, Mount Mary or otherwise BURGUNDY (stick with village and 1er cru, in my opinion, easier on the wallet )

For Chardy : Lakes Folly, Giaconda, Leeuwin Estate. White Burgundy : Paul Pernot, Hubert Lamy, Paul Pilot etc. (be prepared for pre mox though)

Cheers
Andy

Thanks guys, some good info there to start looking at. I'm definitely going to pick up a little more Pol 2002 and will search around for some other '02 but it does seem to be a bit thin on the ground. Seeing some reasonable prices on Bollinger La Grand Amee 2004 and a Veuve La Grand Dame 2004 so might look into those as well as a few of the other tips there.

Very interesting re NV champagnes. How does one know how long it's already existed for? My preferred NV of those I am familiar with are Pol, Bollinger and Louis Roederer.

Got a few Leeuwin Art Series chard and Giaconda, will definitely expand those parts of the collection. Also really enjoying the Savaterre Chardonnay, not sure how they will hold up in the longer term.

Margaret River seems to hold some good value Cabs with potential long life. Picked up some Juniper Estate and Sandalford, plus some Majella from Coonawarra. Will look around for some similar stuff and check out those suggested here.

Andy...I'm scared of the word Burgundy. I really really enjoy Pinot and Chardonnay (sampling the current vintage Savaterre as I type this!) and it could get scary!

maybs wrote:Thanks guys, some good info there to start looking at. I'm definitely going to pick up a little more Pol 2002 and will search around for some other '02 but it does seem to be a bit thin on the ground. Seeing some reasonable prices on Bollinger La Grand Amee 2004 and a Veuve La Grand Dame 2004 so might look into those as well as a few of the other tips there.

Very interesting re NV champagnes. How does one know how long it's already existed for? My preferred NV of those I am familiar with are Pol, Bollinger and Louis Roederer.

Got a few Leeuwin Art Series chard and Giaconda, will definitely expand those parts of the collection. Also really enjoying the Savaterre Chardonnay, not sure how they will hold up in the longer term.

Margaret River seems to hold some good value Cabs with potential long life. Picked up some Juniper Estate and Sandalford, plus some Majella from Coonawarra. Will look around for some similar stuff and check out those suggested here.

Andy...I'm scared of the word Burgundy. I really really enjoy Pinot and Chardonnay (sampling the current vintage Savaterre as I type this!) and it could get scary!

Killerby make great Cab Savs at a decent price. The 2010 vintage is out which was good for them, and they also make a decent Chardonnay (although I doubt it would cellar for 10 years+). Moss Wood also make some of the best Cab Savs in Australia, although they fetch a hefty price.

[
Killerby make great Cab Savs at a decent price. The 2010 vintage is out which was good for them, and they also make a decent Chardonnay (although I doubt it would cellar for 10 years+). Moss Wood also make some of the best Cab Savs in Australia, although they fetch a hefty price.[/quote]


Killerby's reds have underwhelmed me for years. However, their Chardonnay is their flagship by a long way, and I thoroughly recommend them over any of their other wines. It has considerable interest, longevity and a track record.

Killerby's reds have underwhelmed me for years. However, their Chardonnay is their flagship by a long way, and I thoroughly recommend them over any of their other wines. It has considerable interest, longevity and a track record.

Have you tried the 2010 Cab Sav? Definitely a stand out for me compared to previous vintages.

Definitely some 2010 Moss Wood in the cellar Alex but yeah, looking for some good reds at sorta half the price to cellar.

maybs wrote:Definitely some 2010 Moss Wood in the cellar Alex but yeah, looking for some good reds at sorta half the price to cellar.

I am having some pleasant suprises with Clare cabernet
Pikes, Knappstein and Wendouree all very good.

Majella, Katnook, Zema FS, Lindermans St George and Limestone Ridge and Petaluma all worth a look.

Cheers Craig.

maybs wrote:I need to stop drinking all my pinot as soon as I buy it and find some good Australian pinot that will age and be drinkable over the next 10 years

Good luck with that. In my experience there aren't many Australian pinots that will make it past seven years of age in decent shape, let alone ten.

TiggerK makes some good suggestions.

That said, I suggest you steer clear of pinot dominant Champagnes in 1996. Some are experiencing major issues.

Any of the good producers, especially Blanc de Blancs from 2002 should see 20 years out easily if well cellared. A relative cheap Champagne in Australia is the Gimonnet range. Their Special Club in a good year is a superb wine. Also, the current Oz prices for Dom P are more closely aligned to global prices than in the past. The 2004 is a good release, though i had one dodgy bottle in Sydney last year.

As for 2008, the vast majority are yet to be released. Indeed, many wont be for a few years.

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Thanks Sean, I raise the issue about the pinot because I have tasted a few lately that I thought night travel close to ten years, a yabby lake comes to mind, and have had I think an 07 and 08 Curly Flat recently which were still in good nick.

I agree with you about it being important to build up what I like but just looking for suggestions as to things to look out for and try and in particular things people think may go the distance as I have very limited experience ageing wine.

I'm already starting to enjoy it too much though that offsite storage is gonna be looking full soon....

On the pinot question I offer only one random anecdote - a Henschke Adelaide Hills Pinot from 1990 which was bought from the cellar door about 5 or 6yrs ago and was very nice. I picked up a bottle of the 2012 when I visited in February... I intend to leave it in the cellar for at least 5-7 yrs and see what happens (they reckon it is about as good as it gets).

More generally, suggestions for value for money cellaring wines:
> Have some super cheapies with established track records for medium term ageing ... Wynns White Label Shiraz when on super cheap offer, Metala, D'arenberg Footbolt, Rockford GSM, Kaesler GSM, Mt Langi Ghiran Cliff Edge, Seppelts Chalambar, etc
> Cabernets: Bowen Estate, Majella, Wynns when on offer, Lake Breeze (get some langhorne creek cabernet in the mix... maybe Johns Blend as well), Skillogalee Clare Cabernets, etc etc
> Something from Tasmania to liven things up: Pooley Estate Riesling & Pinot Noir.
> Find a mate who gets their mailers or write nicely and ask Wendouree to get on their list (hand written letters work best) ... but buy a few at auction first to see if you like them (they are very cheap at auction outside of the shiraz e.g. $40).

I could go on and on but I will stop myself

Thanks Sam I actually wrote a letter to the nice folks at Wendouree the other week and got a nice letter back saying I had been added to the mailing list

I definitely need to add some more budget wines for medium term cellars me and mid week drinking. A few of those you mention I am familiar with and the good thing about more budget wines is it is not too much to buy a few and try

Oh I just thought as well - get on the Tyrrell's Private Bin Club... you pre commit to buying say Vat 1, Vat 47 and a couple of the reds (minimum quantity is only 12 bottles per year) but you buy the current vintage (e.g. 2013) for <$40 vs the >$60 you pay when released in 5-yrs time... you have to cellar it yourself, but thats half the fun

Nice tip. They are both wines I enjoy so wouldn't be a stretch to buy a dozen between them. Not familiar with their reds but could check them out.

Tyrrell's top reds (4 Acres, Vat 9, Old Patch 1867, Stevens) are easily amongst the best the Hunter (and Aussie) have to offer, but of course vintage is a very important consideration for Hunter IMHO. And they need plenty of age!

Oh, a word on Wendourees, when the offer comes out in July, order a spread of everything and keep your fingers crossed that you will get say six, or maybe more of a few of the offerings. FWIW having been on the list for 20 years and tasting for nearly as long, the shiraz's are over rated and the cabernet/malbecs are the best cellaring bet, followed by the shiraz blends. Last year I only ordered the shiraz and got duckegg! And after 20 years of faithful ordering..... My therapist tells me I'm over it. Really.


Almost.

As for 10 YR+ Pinot, don't forget the good kiwi stuff. Pegasus Bay, Martinborough Vineyards, Ata Rangi, Felton Road (Block 3, Block 5 and Calvert) and Rippon immediately come to mind as easy 10 year prospects. Lesser labels seem best around the 3-6 year mark for my tastes.

Bindi Block 5 and Bass Philip have the rep for long term Aussie stuff, but other than that, I've yet to be convinced by actually tasting one, normally because they are all finished in their youth!. But I have no doubt that there are a fair few other Oz Pinot's around now that will be superb drinking at 10 years of age. I would have great faith in the good years of Mayer, Bannockburn, Tarrawarra, Freycinet and Coldstream Hills Reserve.

Cheers
TiggerK

dave vino wrote:Bowen, Mildara and Redman make good long lasting Coonawarra CabSavs for reasonable prices. If you are impatient you can usually pick them up on the secondary market at very good prices - ready to drink.

I would add to this list Balnaves Cab Sav. You should be able to track down some for between $25-29 pb and it makes an excellent mid week drinking red. I am still slowly working my way through a case of the 2004 and it is, IMO, still some way off entering its optimal drinking window. At this price point its fantastic value.

Hacker wrote:Oh, a word on Wendourees, when the offer comes out in July, order a spread of everything and keep your fingers crossed that you will get say six, or maybe more of a few of the offerings. FWIW having been on the list for 20 years and tasting for nearly as long, the shiraz's are over rated and the cabernet/malbecs are the best cellaring bet, followed by the shiraz blends. Last year I only ordered the shiraz and got duckegg! And after 20 years of faithful ordering..... My therapist tells me I'm over it. Really.


Almost.

You made the worst mistake by ordering only Shiraz. Whomever does that goes in to the black list doesn't matter how long you've been in the mailing list, cause they think you are just buying Shiraz to off-load it for a profit at the auctions.

ufo wrote:You made the worst mistake by ordering only Shiraz. Whomever does that goes in to the black list doesn't matter how long you've been in the mailing list, cause they think you are just buying Shiraz to off-load it for a profit at the auctions.

Thanks. I've made a new appointment with my therapist because of you.

Hacker wrote:Oh, a word on Wendourees.... the shiraz's are over rated and the cabernet/malbecs are the best cellaring bet ....Last year I only ordered the shiraz

well why did you only order the wine that was over-rated?

Sorry couldn't resist adding to the therapy bills!

sjw_11 wrote:

Hacker wrote:Oh, a word on Wendourees.... the shiraz's are over rated and the cabernet/malbecs are the best cellaring bet ....Last year I only ordered the shiraz

well why did you only order the wine that was over-rated?

Sorry couldn't resist adding to the therapy bills!

Good point. I wasn't going to order any, but a fellow forumite asked if I would order some for him, so in went the order and it all went downhill from there.

Enough on the subject.