The Auswine Forum

Can be found here

http://tysonstelzer.com/articles/penfol ... ease-2013/

Even before reading, I'm slightly dreading the hype, pricing and high points from everyone with a slightly vested interest. Oh well, if the wines are good, I shouldn't care right?

But thanks Brucer!

Oh lawd, having read, score highly much Tyson?

91 and 92, a 96 for Bin 28, then the duty free profit makers Bin 8 and Bin 2 at 92 and 91. Then here we go....

97, 96, 95, 95, 96, 97, 95, 96, 98, 98, 97 and a multi-award winning wine writer 99 Points for the Grange 2008.



Evil Cynical TiggerK.

Oh and most prices have stayed the same, oh except for quite a few of them which have gone up a fair bit.

Wow. Some of that is a bit hard to believe. Wounder what the $350 707 will be selling for at Auction in 2 years time?
about half I think.

Forget about it these aint for us anymore.... There are so many $20-30 reds which are the equal of Bin 28/128 why pay $38? (if the 2010 bin 28 is on offer for $20 I will buy 6 otherwise blergh)... these wines are all now being made and priced for morons who are too stupid or too ill discerning to pick wine any way other than going "ooo penfolds, ive eard of that one"

And $350 for 707? Sure great whatever... no way i will buy one and now it just becomes "one of those wines priced only for morons with too much money" (apologies to anyone here if you actually buy some! im just generalising)!!

Sorry Im in a bad mood today usually im not this aggressive!!

My favourite quote.
“When 2010 Penfolds Grange arrives, I think it will blow all before it for a decade or two out of the water!” Strong endorsement,
and this is no hyped marketing pitch

Really?

Well I might be an idiot and get some Bin 389. Just 3 maybe.

Typical Penfolds. Stupid price rises and what about the amount of Grange they make. 5000-10000 cases @ $685 a bottle...... Bin 707 from $190 to $350 in 2 years. I really hope they don't sell out, but sadly they will. If I was interested in buying either of those I'd wait a couple of years until they come up at auction. In the last few years they have almost always been significantly cheaper. When will people learn?

Also Tyson's ratings are once again a reminder of why I hate the 100 point system. I wonder if by giving some insane reviews, it guarantees a seat at the next Rewards of Patience dinner. It is almost like Penfold's wrote the notes for him. How many times has Peter Gago come out and said that this is the greatest vintage ever. A bit of modesty from him wouldn't go astray. He is really starting to sound irritating.

I don't want to sound like a Penfold's hater (well maybe I am just a bit ) but I'm really starting to be turned off by them. Yes, they do make some exceptional wines, that is not arguable. But they seem to be pricing them out of range of the average punter. No doubt the 2 majors will discount them heavily again upon release, which will tempt many. If the price rises continue like this then within a few years they had better be some very special wines. As Tyson said, the WA Cabernet's are starting to look better and better. There is some pretty good value in the $20 to $40 bracket in which I spent a good percentage of my money, and at the Bin 389 and 407 level there are some incredible wines. In my limited experience, Penfold's are made to a formula and rarely offer anything too interesting.

With Treasury announcing a 31% increase in profit from last year it's obvious that their new business plan is to raise prices and hope that sales don't drop through innovative marketing (such as the Rewards of Patience tastings that the reviewers w@*k themselves over). I for one am not that interested in their wines anymore as most of my money goes to the smaller, more boutique producer. I'll still go along to a tasting and try the new Bin's, but they'll have to be very very keenly priced and of a very high quality for me to dip into my wallet.

Cheers
Ian

Most of the good stuff will go to China. They will pay for it, but the prices they pay will probably be less then what we are asked to pay.

I had a number of those wines a couple of weeks ago. My notes at the time were not quite as effusive as Tyson's, but I have to say I was quite impressed by what I tasted. The 389 looks pretty sleek and slinky and can be drunk now. It's nothing like, say, the 2005 release which was brawny and muscular. The new release is positively feminine by comparison, and of all the bins, it's the one that has the unmistakeable hallmark pennies oak.
The 150 is excellent. That was the standout wine for me because it's full of character, and not necessarily recognisable as a Penfolds wine. The 28 is very good, and I would agree that it could be special in the long run. The 23 surprised me. There's some really attractive fruit there, but I feel it's to the detriment of that fruit to have had to try to squeeze it into the Penfolds oak regime. Just my opinion. It was highly regarded across the room.
407 also surprised me. It's a pretty solid wine. I went in with low expectations of it, but it actually stood up. There is plenty of competition, however, at its price. 138 is nice and juicy and quite well balanced overall, which is all you can ask for, really, from a GSM or whatever the blend is. 128 was fine too.
Overall, it looked pretty clear to me that they're wanting the fruit to lead the way in these wines, and not the oak, which is a good thing.

Yep, what Brucer said, and lets not forget the USA, UK and NZ where Penfolds can always be found at WAY lower prices ($ conversion taken into account) than we are expected to pay here. Only on big-chain-who-is-cheapest frenzy release day (and you watch, the bargains won't be as good this year) are we even vaguely similar to what overseas customers are charged. Seems odd n'est pas?

And of course, lets never forget you can buy endless aged Penfolds at auction for way lower than these asking prices.... And minimal risk as they will replace TCA wines happily. (but naturally not badly stored ones).

Bit like buying a new car, feels good for a while, then you realise how much cash just got burned in the first year.

P.S In no way am I suggesting they probably aren't 'good' wines, I suppose I'm just jumping on the #bashPenfoldsforbecominganincreasinglyunAustralianfeelingmarketingcompany bandwagon.
(And yes, I do know I'm a Kiwi BTW ).

Don't own a single bottle of Penfolds range in cellar, but I have drank them only because it was offered to me

It's just the prices put me off.

Only Penfolds range I don't mind drinking is the 389's only because my step mother's father left a large chunk of penfold range all the way back from 70's-80's when he passed away and I have tasted a quiet few of them, and enjoyed them, it was only recently when I started looked at them, the prices were like "uh...wtf?" *shock* after stepmother told me how much he paid for them back then.

Like tickle said, I have put most of my coins towards WA's wines lately, far better value for money.

Well it appears that Halliday has passed the baton
I am so so so disappointed...these wines are positively cheap
Was really hoping that 2010 Bin 28 would be $50+ and 389 over a hundred.

The 2, 6 packs of mixed Pyrus and LR that I picked up today ( spread of 2005-2008 vintage ) at $40 pb....ssssshhhhh don't tell anyone at TWE .
This brand along with the other one at great western hopefully are forgotten.
Yes might be in for a little bit of pain on August 7, but thats only if I want to play.

Waiting eagerly for your thoughts Iain and whether the Kalimna club has been disbanded

Buy up really really big my lovelies

going through the cellar the other day looking for a drink i realised i still have 6 bottles of 1994 707. Cost me $60 a bottle. Havent bought any since

In NZ increasingly seeing top penfolds heavily discounted. DIdnt for a few months but I think they are rather slow at moving. cant see $350 707 moving too fast. You can buy 09 Ch Pontet Canet off the shelf here still for cheaper than that!

Hmmm let me think. Te Mata Coleraine for $75 or Penfolds Bin 407 for $75??

I guess though someone has to take money off retards, so TWE might be positioning themselves to corner that market?

The 100 point scoring system????
Is it wine / Yes = 80.
Is it drinkable / Yes = 10 points.
The other 10 points are anyone's guess.

I don't think I've ever seen a score less than an 80.

I didn't think there would be too many surprises and it was a pretty good vintage - it will be interesting to see how they market the 2011 and then the gushing for 2012.

I will probably get some 389 - purely as it is my daughters birth year and will be a comfortable cellaring proposition. If the 28 would last and the 150 as well I would consider those.

However if someone wants to give me some sub $75 2010's that will do 15-30 years on their head please let me know.

Hi everyone,

First post - long time reader. Big fan of the forum.

I have no interest in Penfolds wines - top end is not my price range and low end can't compete with other vineyards for QPR - but thought I might be able to help Teisto with some ideas for 2010 vintage 30+ years potential wines sub $75:
- 2010 Houghton Cabernet Sauvignon Gladstones
- 2010 Majella Cabernet Sauvignon
- 2010 Patritti Shiraz JPB
- 2010 Marius Symphony Shiraz
- 2010 Bests Great Western Bin No 0
- 2010 McWilliam's Mount Pleasant Wines Shiraz Old Paddock & Old Hill
- 2010 Freycinet Vineyard Pinot Noir (maybe... rare to find a sub$75 PN with that longevity so thought it worth including)
- 2010 Rockford Shiraz Basket Press (maybe... personal soft spot so would buy this wine for a significant anniversary regardless of objective longevity)

There are a few other wines from the 2010 vintage which I don't think have been released which I would expect to make it into this group (e.g. Voyager Estate CSM). Hope this helps.

BTW, I've collected a couple of long lived 2009 wines (pick of which is the 2009 Cape Mentelle Cabernet Sauvignon) as that was our wedding year but haven't got many so would welcome any suggestions for similar wines from the 2009 vintage. Also, we are expecting our first baby this year so I'm hoping 2013 will be an outstanding vintage.

Thanks!
Ben

I think the secondary market reflects the true values and they are below current RRP. I thought well aged prior vintages were supposed to sell above current RRP. Why buy current vintage and wait?

I haven't bought any Penfolds for around 10 years and only have a few in the cellar. Much better QPR elsewhere. $75 for a 389? Yeh right! Or are they superior wines? 389 used to be put in oak used in prior vintages of Grange. Is this still the case and if not is it getting any new oak to in someway justify the price?

A few questions there for Moira.

An article in todays paper said the overseas demand for Grange, 389 etc has exploded while the local demand had fallen. They are selling Grange for $1,100 in China. That says a lot for a country where they mix coke with Grange. Enough to drive a man to drink!

Carl

This strategy will eventually blow up in TWE's face. They are selling into a fad overseas market that will eventually fall away. Then they'll be left with an alienated domestic market.

S28 wrote:The 100 point scoring system????
Is it wine / Yes = 80.
Is it drinkable / Yes = 10 points.
The other 10 points are anyone's guess.

I don't think I've ever seen a score less than an 80.

I agree. But is the 20 point system any different?

Is it wine / Yes = 10.
Is it drinkable / Yes = 5 points.
The other 5 points are anyone's guess.

FWIW, have just heard Lisa Perotti-Brown MW rated 2008 Grange 100/100 for an upcoming edition of Wine Advocate.

Penfolds St Henri Shiraz 2009, $95

2009 St Henri................................. Robe is the prominent fruit source here,............................

Is it me or is TWE stripping out the best fruit for other, higher, labels and leaving relatively younger vine fruit for the St. Henri.

If someone can point out a good Robe fruited wine that will last 25yr+ please let me know.

Cheers

AndrewCowley wrote:This strategy will eventually blow up in TWE's face. They are selling into a fad overseas market that will eventually fall away. Then they'll be left with an alienated domestic market.

Andrew, not eventually, but already. I would suggest that Pennies alienated the domestic market probably a decade ago...the bin releases etc. are a big yawn. Grange will become En Primeur and then there will be all the behind the scene shady deals.
Langtons and co must be licking their lips with all this stuff coming onto the second hand market, what a sellers and buyers commission of around 25%.

Why don't Penfolds do us all a favour and set the RRP at the second hand market price. They would know what these are.

Oh wait a minute...actually don't care , keep the prices going up and up and up.
The only way I could look at getting these wines now is if i was sleeping with the boss.

Praise Bacchus that there are still some small quality producers that don't rip you off and still continue to get my business.

Have a good day.
Craig.

Teisto wrote:However if someone wants to give me some sub $75 2010's that will do 15-30 years on their head please let me know.

Every Wendouree release... granted, difficult to source at that pricing if not on the mailing list.

sjw_11 wrote:

Teisto wrote:However if someone wants to give me some sub $75 2010's that will do 15-30 years on their head please let me know.

Every Wendouree release... granted, difficult to source at that pricing if not on the mailing list.

Exactly - would love to be on that list. Would love to be on the Stonewallers as well but have to resign myself to the fact I get one of my staff in Adelaide to go and buy me 3 basket press from Cellar Door when released in March each year

I agree they are off their rocker (Penfolds) but given people will buy it they are made if they don't push up the prices. Make hay while the sun shines. I do support a lot of smaller producers and it's my preference - I just want something I can get with longevity for my daughter.

Teisto wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:

Teisto wrote:However if someone wants to give me some sub $75 2010's that will do 15-30 years on their head please let me know.

Every Wendouree release... granted, difficult to source at that pricing if not on the mailing list.

Exactly - would love to be on that list. Would love to be on the Stonewallers as well

Don't worry your not alone, Im not on either list too...

Hi everyone,

The Penfolds pricing question is a good discussion. On the one hand I think the 'halo effect' is not a bad thing for Australian wine, and with Bordeaux going ballistic at the top end, it's inevitable that Australia's flagships ultimately start to head in the same direction. On the other hand, I wish I could afford these wines. Alas!

It will be interesting to see how street pricing pans out this year.

Last year, 2007 Grange ended up $10 cheaper than the year before ($485), in spite of a $26 rise in official RRP. Lesser vintage effect? My tip in my newsletter at the time was that it will probably end up at $400-$450 at auction.

Bin 707 went up to $250 form $190 last year, but the street price was still $185.

Discounting on the 2008 Bin release was aggressive in 2011, with keen specials between 40% and 48% off RRP. And the bonus magnum and wine fridge on offer were certainly enticing. I bought both. Last year the best street prices were just 35% off, bringing Bin 407 down to $42 and Bin 389 down to $49.

The best discount was $22 for Bin 28, which for me compares quite well with other SA shiraz at this price. The only one I could afford to buy last year!

In context, this all makes Cape Mentelle, Cullen, Xanadu, Vasse Felix, Balnaves, Majella, Wynns and dozens of other cabernets look like bargains. Not to mention shiraz...

Cheers everyone - and good to see the lively discussion continuing at Auswine - I was very active here between fifteen and ten years ago - if only I had more time now!

Tyson.

Hello Tyson, good to see that you have posted here.
Perhaps after your recent reviews an alert has popped up.
Did not mean to be overly critical in my initial post but some of the scores seem incredibly high, with not a lot of room to manoeuvre in a upcoming poor vintage such as 2011.
Whilst wine writers have to appease the winemakers, as its what you make a living from, I find it really refreshing when occasionally they do a "Jeremy Clarkson"and tell it like we all know it really is.
I distinctly recall a colleague of yours referring at the time to the 1999 and possibly 2000 Grange, should never have been released due to the extremely poor climatic conditions of the vintage.

I can't speak for everyone but consensus tells me and what I have seen from Pennies annual releases the spark has disappeared.
Yes 1844 to evermore has some history prestige and clout, and there are some great wines made, but apart from heavy hitters with deep pockets, the days of purchasing these wines from a retailer are pretty well over.
I pick up Magill, St Henri and Bin 28 from auction occasionally as I like the contrasting styles of these wines, but retail purchases stopped nearly 10 years ago.

The alienation of the domestic market is a big issue for me and when I can buy St Henri cheaper in Harrod's at Knights-bridge last year, than here in Adelaide it is just wrong. Wrong on the account that I can not buy first and second growths cheaper than you can get them in France, even with our strong dollar. Not a great example, but I think you get the point.

Hope you can post again, I enjoy reading yours and Max's work.

Cheers Craig.
PS. can you give us an idea of when the next great Australian red tasting (Cab/shiraz) will be on in Adelaide, only found out last year the day before and could not make it which was a shame.

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your response.

I always score wines as I see them, not to appease their makers. Even just this week I've been in the bad books of one maker (one that I know about!) upset about low scores. But I'm not answerable to winemakers, only to my readers.

Your question about these wines being cheaper overseas than in Australia has bothered me as well, to the point where I conducted some reasearch of my own in an attempt to get to the bottom of this saga two years ago. The results are revealing.

I published my findings in one of the early editions of my Wine Taste Weekly newsletter, which you can read here: http://tysonstelzer.com/content/WineTaste13.pdf. Scroll to page 3, "Why 2006 Grange costs $155 more in Australia than overseas." The results are based on a survey of the street price of Grange across thirty retailers in six countries, but similar maths works for any other wine in the range.

Cheers,

Tyson.