Aged Riesling advice...

[Mal_B]

Better start with a little background:

Around 10 years ago, my local italian restaurant served an aged riesling. I'm fairly (but not entirely) sure it was the 1991 DWU18 Leonay. It was an incredible drink, literally reeking of kero, toast and lime. I managed to have a couple of bottles before they ran out. Since then, my interest in wine has gone up and down but I'm now in the position where I have a little time and money to devote back to it. Over the last six months or so I have been amassing a modest cellar almost entirely composed of riesling.

What I'm seeking is advice as to what I should be laying down. Obviously, what I want to recapture is the sublime experience of that Leonay. So far I have been concentrating on Grosset, Leonay and some Petaluma. A lot of this has been bought from auction from what I understand to be reasonably good vintages (2002 and 2005 for example). What I am finding is that the wines under stelvin taste, well, young. My 2002 Petaluma is certainly a nice drink but surprsingly pale in colour and seems to me at least to have a fair bit of development in it yet to go. Quite unlike that magic Leo Buring...

So, will I ever drink something like that again? Did I just get lucky, or maybe is my palate terrible and what I thought was great was ordinary? Are there rieslings about I should be targeting? If anyone could offer any opinions/insights etc. it would be very much appreciated.

Cheers,

mal

[Mahmoud Ali]

Mal,

The Leonay is a very good riesling, but it was a 1991, and ten years ago it would have been a 20 year-old wine. Generally speaking you will need to cellar similar quality wines for about the same length of time. Since you are buying things like Grosset, Leonay, and Petaluma, you will need to wait a lot longer to get anything approaching what you experienced with the '91 Leonay. The fact that the current wines are under screwcap means you might have to wait even a bit longer.

As a riesling lover your best bet is to broaden your purchases to include less expensive, less structured wines that will will show positive development earlier. You will surely be rewarded. I have bottles of '01 and '02 Wynn's Riesling slumbering. Last year a friend of mine told me that at a high end tasting that included a Grange, the wine of the evening for him was a 1996 Best's Great Western Riesling. So if you see any back vintages of less expensive or budget Rieslings on a store shelf give it a go, you might be surprised.

Keep the faith with Riesling, probably the best and most versatile white (and red?) grape variety in the world.

Cheers......................Mahmoud.

[Michael R]

Welcome Mal

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised to find plenty of Riesling freaks on this forum, myself included. The wine you mention is an amazing wine, assuming its the Leo Buring? Had it just a couple of months ago with a few forum mates, superb. All the examples you mentioned are long livers in decent vintages. You may be drinking them a touch erly, however I'm not sure if they'll ever match a 91 Leonay. FWIW I've also been drinking Richmond Grove and Crawford river a bit recently, both age well also.
Since meeting redvelvet (Shannon) a few years ago I've really seen what the Germans can do. Wow. Beware. It can pinch the wallet, but a lot of the decent German stuff does 30, 40 years in a canter. I honestly think the balance of a quality German Riesling is beyond comparison. Austrian riesling rocks too. if you're a Sydneysider I can advise quite a few good bars and shops to buy aged Riesling.

Cheers
Michael

[TiggerK]

Hi mal,

As Mick said, the Leonay 1991 is certainly drinking wonderfully right now, amazing limes, more limes and smooth long length. A Petaluma 86 and 90 were also stunningly good when I had them a year or two ago. We've done a number of mega Riesling tastings with Grape Mates and find these great wines just need time, and the right vintage. You're right to be concentrating on the labels with a proven track record, Leo Buring and Petaluma have certainly proven themselves to me!! Not as convinced on Grosset Polish Hill though, but haven't tried many aged ones, certainly delicious when young and the Watervales are great. Had a delicious Richmond Grove 1998 yesterday under screwcap, and it was just starting to get all that secondary Riesling goodness. So they do age well under screwcap, and should be much more consistent than cork if stored correctly, just be patient. Some wines like the Petaluma 02 (and 05) will need much more time than others to evolve, others will age a bit more rapidly as a few of the Leo Buring 06's seem to be doing. Works out well, some vintages to drink soon, others to leave for a lot longer!

And yes, the amazing Germans....... do yourself a favour and try a few good examples to see what's what. Again they'll be young (unless you're lucky enough to attend a tasting or dinner with Shannon!), but you'll get the idea. The residual sugar can be confronting to a palate used to razor sharp Oz Rieslings at first, but they have the acid in balance to form something often very special, and match food very well. NZ does some good stuff as well, often in the off-dry style. The beauty of Riesling is sheer variety of it all.

And for the whites, I'd be adding some Hunter Semillon and a few Chardonnays to the cellar too, you may not regret it later on!

Cheers
Tim

[Waiters Friend]

G'day Mal

I agree with the comments above about broadening your Australian riesling horizons.

Howard Park, Capel Vale and Houghton from the Great Southern.
WIlsons and Pauletts from Clare (Polish Hill River)
There are also some Tasmanian and Victorian rieslings worth a serious look, although I cannot personally vouch for their longevity.

BTW, my 'revelation' bottle was a screw-capped 1979 Pewsey Vale consumed in 2000.

Cheers

Allan

[sjw_11]

The beauty of wine can be the surprises... I was blown away by two Bowen Estate rieslings (Coonawarra) from 1991 and 1992 bought for around $7 at auction that were both superb in 2010.

Also on the German wine front, I too recently attended one of Shannon's dinners and had my first taste of aged German riesling (including a 1949 TBA) and all I can really say is wow.

MichaelR - what are your tips in Sydney for buying aged riesling?

[Michael McNally]

The Leonay is a very good riesling, but it was a 1991, and ten years ago it would have been a 20 year-old wine.
Cheers......................Mahmoud.

Not sure about your maths there Mahmoud. It would have been an eleven-year-old wine in 2002, which was ten years ago.

The big difference is probably with the seal. A reasonable cork seal may have allowed the wine to age more quickly than a screwcap. The reality is that you may just have to be more patient Mal! Those aged characteristics may simply take more time to appear under screwies.

Don't forget to put away some of the classic cheapies. The 2011 Pewsey Vale and the 2011 Jim Barry spring to mind.

Cheers

Michael

[Matt]

Hi
Generally speaking, what is ideal serving temperature for aged rieslings? Say 20yrs +

[cuttlefish]

I do sound like a broken record now, but I think the Peter Lehman "Wigan" Riesling has been very cellar-worthy in recent years; 2004, and 2005 releases both are rich, powerful wines, which should go the distance. I don't know where the fruit for that wine is sourced or if it's a single vineyard wine, or the same single vineyard each release. In my personal experience, I've had Richmond Grove Rieslings from the late '90's and Wilson Rieslings from the same period at about 10-14 years of age, and they were exceptionally tasty, and aromatic, and had good mouthfeel (balanced and flavorful). All really, really nice wines. Frankland Estate from Great Southern region in W.A. are known riesling enthusiasts, and have a range of single vineyard rieslings. They also have a recent addition to their range called their "Smith Cullam" riesling, which I think is cellar worthy. It has a few grams (maybe 5-6 ??) of residual sugar so just off-dry, but it's a very tasty wine.
Drumborg region in south-west Victoria - Seppelt, and the previously mentioned Crawford River.
Really, though, the lions share of the very best are from Clare and Eden Valleys regions north of Adelaide. There are some revered vineyards there that are typically used to make single-vineyard rieslings:
Jim Barry's "Florita",
Pikes "The Merle" are two that I'm aware of, but to be honest, I've not tried either with considerable age on them. I've tried them young, though, and they're good. As the top Riesling for each producer, they're typically well balanced wines made from their finest fruit, etc. I just cannot comment on their ageability.

[Mike Hawkins]

I think if you like the Australian style of riesling, then dry Alsatians might be a better bet than Germans. I was specifically thinking of Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile. Its not cheap in Oz (c$75), but it is a superb wine and ages magnificently (though not convinced the 05 will age longer than 5 more years).

DLo might chime in here - I know he drinks some of the standard Freddies and some of the vendage tardives at 20+ years of age.

Cheers

Mike

[Mahmoud Ali]

The Leonay is a very good riesling, but it was a 1991, and ten years ago it would have been a 20 year-old wine.

Not sure about your maths there Mahmoud. It would have been an eleven-year-old wine in 2002, which was ten years ago.

The big difference is probably with the seal. A reasonable cork seal may have allowed the wine to age more quickly than a screwcap. The reality is that you may just have to be more patient Mal! Those aged characteristics may simply take more time to appear under screwies.

Don't forget to put away some of the classic cheapies. The 2011 Pewsey Vale and the 2011 Jim Barry spring to mind.

Well spotted Michael. I don't know what to say except "ooops!"

I think you're probably right about the difference being the screwcap seal. It also means that since many of my Australian Rieslings are more than 10 years old and under cork I should start to consider opening a few. They're not premium quality so they may be in the zone, so to speak.

Cheers....................Mahmoud.

PS: I can't recall if my '06 Steingarten is under cork or screwcap.

[dlo]

Mal,

Welcome aboard.

The 1991 Leonay you refer to is closest in number to the Leo Buring DWU17 Leonay Eden Valley Riesling 1991, a truly remarkable riesling and a wine I recently picked up another few bottles (I've consumed at least a dozen since release and seemingly this last batch are in excellent condition - colour and levels look terrific) for a relatively good price (about the same as you would pay for the current release). The wine took a long time to hit its straps (it was an incredibly slow developer and was overshadowed for many years by the 1990 Eden Valley Leonay - another fantastic long-living Buring riesling that unfortunately has seen better days). I'll be opening a 1991 Eden Valley Leonay this afternoon with an old friend over a long lunch. Stay tuned. However, by the sound of your description of the wine, I believe it likely the wine you mention above to be the faster developing (but no less impressive and multiple championship and trophy winning) Leonay DW U13 Watervale 1991 Riesling. The guy who made these great whites and who only retired in 2010, John Vickery "is a genius of the industry. During the 1960s and '70s at Leo Buring, he fashioned white-label reserve-bin DW rieslings that proved Australian riesling could be delicate and charming — even elegant. Time in bottle only enhanced their beauty, as the 1975 DW E17 Eden Valley proves. Vickery has shaped and defined the best Australian riesling, inspired young winemakers and set the ground rules for the most exacting standards." (Jeni Port, The Age, 2011). After being lured away from Leo Buring in 1993 (after 38 years), Vickery was handed his old Chateau Leonay (Leo Buring) winery in the Barossa, by his new masters, Orlando-Wyndham, and although he worked "hands off" as a consultant to the winery after 1998, I'm sure a lot of his guru magic rubbed off on the Richmond Grove label. A recent 2004 Richmond Grove Watervale Riesling sent to me by a generous Mark Wickman had gold medal written all over it and without a doubt will last for at least a decade, possibly two, if well stored. So make sure you add Richmond Grove to Leo Buring on your "seek out" list.

Amongst the bevy of outstanding Riesling makers and in no particular order and excluding the two already mentioned above, you could try -

Seppelt Drumborg (terrible bottle variation on the 2003, otherwise without criticism from me thus far except for a fast developing 1998)
Forest Hill Vineyard Block 1
Lethbridge - Dr Nadeson (I've only tried and bought the 1999 but it's simply awesome)
Pewsey Vale (keep an eye out for their occasional aged release - "Contours")
Helm (Premium), Clonakilla, Shaw Estate (2008 Premium), Gallagher (All Canberra District makers - local favourites)
Ashbrook (Margaret River)
Mesh
Grosset
Petaluma (variable, so be careful - e.g. 2002 great and holding well vs. 2009 very forward)
Peter Lehmann (Reserve or Wigan - 2002 Reserve exceptional)
Clos Clare
Wilson (Polish Hill)
Steingarten and St Helga (Orlando/Jacob's Creek)
Heggies
Crawford River
Pikes
Jim Barry (Florita and Lodge Hill, in particular)
Plantagenet
Howard Park
Henschke

and I could go on with many more names but I have run out of time .... so good luck with your riesling challenge.

Postscript - forgot to post this yesterday morning. We opened the 1991 Eden Valley Leonay and it was sensational - amazing bright colour, awesome perplexing bouquet full of lime and toast and a palate to die for. I thought it worthy of 95 points. My drinking partner who scores out of 20, thought 19 and a half (97/98). And the wine will last for many years. Alcohol was 11.5%!

[dlo]

Hi
Generally speaking, what is ideal serving temperature for aged rieslings? Say 20yrs +

12C in a perfect world and let it warm in the glass.

[dlo]

As to how to get hold of quality aged riesling? Keep a look out for excellent retailers (like Gavin Trott who owns this board) who may have access to good inventory's of aged stock (hopefully, held under temperature controlled storage) but expect to pay a premium for this type of service. Or talk directly with the producer's that hold back stock. Or just buy at release and wait - like most of us do. Auctions do turn up some good old stuff but tread carefully and be prepared to get "burnt" on an occasional basis (as I have) as you (generally) have no comeback with this form of purchase as you do with buying through a retail wine outlet. Ask yourself why people sell wine at auction? Generally, because they need/want the money, don't need the wine any longer and/or the wine is not much good. Mark Wickman who posts regularly on this board is one of the few auctioneer's who makes a genuine attempt to vent his vendors for "provenance" to give the purchaser some idea of how the wine has been stored. Otherwise caveat emptor.

[dlo]

I think if you like the Australian style of riesling, then dry Alsatians might be a better bet than Germans. I was specifically thinking of Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile. Its not cheap in Oz (c$75), but it is a superb wine and ages magnificently (though not convinced the 05 will age longer than 5 more years).

DLo might chime in here - I know he drinks some of the standard Freddies and some of the vendage tardives at 20+ years of age.

Cheers

Mike

Alsace Riesling from great producer's like Trimbach can be awesome at the top level but, over the years, the demand for such limited quantity has forced up prices to an extent that I'm not buying them these days. I still have a few 1989, 1990 and 2001 Cuvee Frederic Emile's in the cellar.

[RedVelvet]

Hi Mal,

With regard to Australian Riesling i think it is all very well covered above and i would only be repeating what others have already said. Having said that i would like to add that personally i have found that many good Australian Riesling will often shut down and go into a dull and unexciting stage between 10 and 20yrs of development. When they come out of that phase at 20+yrs of age i think you would be hard pressed to find a better 20yr old Australian white wine, if not a better Australian white wine at any age. They can be breathtakingly good and are seriously under valued in this country. A top Aussie Riesling can set you back $60 while a top Aussie Shiraz can set you back $600.

As to serving temperature, dlo is right on the money, 12 degrees and let them warm up in the glass.

[Mal_B]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! Great to see I’m hardly alone in loving these wines. It seems the take home message is with a little more patience I may just get lucky enough to uncover something special…

Thanks also for all the suggestions. Some I have already picked up such as the Florita and the Pauletts Antonina but others (particularly the Drumborg) I am yet to get on to. Admittedly I have been a little reluctant to explore beyond my Clare/Eden comfort zone.

A few specific comments:

Mahmoud Ali: Good suggestion re. cheaper, younger wines. I have been watching some of these at auction and they tend to look much better value than the “icon” wines.

Michael R: I know absolutely nothing about European wines at all. Sounds like something worth looking into. Although I live in Canberra, I get to Sydney quite often for work (will be up there tomorrow in fact) so would be very keen to hear of places to shop.

TiggerK: Not the first time I have heard doubts raised around the long term potential of the Grosset PH. Given the iconic status of this wine I’d be interested in hearing people’s experiences with this wine. I have several of the ‘02s and they certainly seem to be drinking OK but taste to me like they’ve got years to go. I also tend to buy from Grosset each release but certainly don’t want to continue if they’re not going to age!

Dlo: I’m just about certain you’re right; the wine in question was the ’91 DWU13. Your description explains why it seemed so developed when I tasted it. I can still almost taste it… As a Canberran I’d be interested in hearing your experiences with the local Rieslings as they age. I’ve had a number young but have no idea how they go with time. Also extremely envious of your recent Leonay experience – sounds amazing!

Thanks again for all the replies. Quite a response for a first post to a forum! It certainly won’t be my last.

mal

[Mal_B]

Hi Mal,

With regard to Australian Riesling i think it is all very well covered above and i would only be repeating what others have already said. Having said that i would like to add that personally i have found that many good Australian Riesling will often shut down and go into a dull and unexciting stage between 10 and 20yrs of development. When they come out of that phase at 20+yrs of age i think you would be hard pressed to find a better 20yr old Australian white wine, if not a better Australian white wine at any age. They can be breathtakingly good and are seriously under valued in this country. A top Aussie Riesling can set you back $60 while a top Aussie Shiraz can set you back $600.

As to serving temperature, dlo is right on the money, 12 degrees and let them warm up in the glass.

Forgot this in my main reply (lost the first copy and had to type it all out again). Really interested in what you've said here. This aligns very closely with my experience. I shared a bottle of an 02 Petaluma wih a friend recently and he used words very similar to yours in describing it as "in between". I opened a 98 Heggies myself last night and although it was delicious, it wasn't mind blowing. Again, it felt like there was some time left in it but I lack the experience to know for sure (does anyone have recent experience with this one?).

mal

[TiggerK]

Not sure of the Heggies, but here's some links to our riesling tastings you might like a read of...

Cheers
Tim

http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12441

http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12020

http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11834

http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10970

[Michael R]

Mal & SJW

PMs sent to you inbox.

Cheers
Michael

[Broughy]

Seppelt Drumborg (terrible bottle variation on the 2003

ahhh the penny drops, thought some of my bottles were very different.

Richmond Grove have back vintages

[LawrenceM]

Mal & SJW

PMs sent to you inbox.

Cheers
Michael

Michael

Would be interested as well, if you wouldn't mind.

[Red Smurf]

From memory, at one of Daniels mega taste, I think we had a 01 Heggies in the same flight as a 91 Leo Buring and it held up really well.

[TiggerK]

It certainly did! My notes from that tasting (Sept 2010),

1991 Leo Buring Leonay Riesling DW U17 - This was an immediate hit, and for some was WOTN, certainly my white WOTN. 19
2001 Heggies Vineyard Reserve Riesling - I loved this as well. Amazing nose, fresher and more limey than the Leo B, but without some of the aged nuances and character. 18.5

Cheers
Tim

[Softie]

A small contribution ...

About three years ago I purchased about two dozen Grosset Rieslings known to have been impeccably cellared - mostly of (now) 7-9 years of age. (After some Grape mates Riesling events inspired me to go for aged Rieslings.)

I've only opened 3-4, but, sadly, I've been under whelmed every time. This could be a 'shut down window' effect. But I am concerned that private conversations with some on this forum suggest a possible under current of disappointment with aged Grossets.

Don't assume these limited experiences are decisive - far from it - but maybe keep an eye on their development and any emergent convergence of opinions on Grosset wines post 2002.

John

[daz]

Mal, aged riesling isn't the be and end all of exceptional Aussie examples of the variety. Bests Great Western 2011 is exceptional. After being confused by the first bottle or two due to its pure, juicy, varietal expression of riesling, I came to appreciate its varietal purity. So much so that I think it is one of the best wines of any variety that I've ever drunk, young, aged or in between - I only drink Aussie wines, they provide me with as much vinous pleasure as I want. I retain fond memories of a Wilson Polish Hill that was perhaps 10-12 y.o. when I drank it. But I do generally prefer whites that are fresh, relatively young. Halliday rated the Bests GW 2011 97 pts with a drinking window to 2025. Highly recommend you try it as part of your journey into riesling.

Cheers

daz

[Mal_B]

Thanks Daz. I do drink the youger rieslings from time to time although my focus does tend to be on mature wines. I did have the 2012 Jim Barry the other night which was absolutely delicious. Hopefully bodes well for the 2012 vintage more generally! Also picked up a bottle of the Bests on your recommendation. It's in the fridge now waiting for lunchtime. Very much looking forward to trying it.

Cheers,

mal

[daz]

Thanks Daz. I do drink the youger rieslings from time to time although my focus does tend to be on mature wines. I did have the 2012 Jim Barry the other night which was absolutely delicious. Hopefully bodes well for the 2012 vintage more generally! Also picked up a bottle of the Bests on your recommendation. It's in the fridge now waiting for lunchtime. Very much looking forward to trying it.

Cheers,

mal

Hope you like the Bests 2011 Mal. Those who I'm aware have tried it enjoyed it but you may not if you look for lots of up-front acid and riverstones dryness. It's the pure varietal fruit with a touch of sweetness and the palate length that won me. Don't let it chill too much, 8-10C about minimum I reckon if you want to look at over a largish glass. I took a stroll along the riesling shelf at the barn recently and the Jim Barry Watervale almost jumped at me from it. Not sure of vintage but I've seen some so-so comments on the 2011 vintage.

Cheers

[Michael R]

Bests Great Western 2011..... Halliday rated the Bests GW 2011 97 pts with a drinking window to 2025. Highly recommend you try it as part of your journey into riesling

Good call Daz.

[RedVelvet]

Just thought it might be worth mentioning that there are some interesting German Riesling currently available in Wickman's June Auction.
The 1990 Jos Jos Prum on offer would be a superb example of a medium aged Spatlese from an exceptional vintage in the MSR if you are looking for something different to Aussie Riesling. There is also some 1998 Egon Muller Kabinett and Von Schubert Spatlese which is a fairly good vintage that should be drinking rather well now but perhaps not quite as well as the Burkin-Wolf Pfalz region 1998's also on offer, these could likely spend quite a bit more time in the cellar. If anyone is interested in trying something German with a little bottle age you may well find these very interesting if they have been cellared correctly. See the below link:

http://www.wickman.net.au/wineauction/a ... .asp?ID=34