The Auswine Forum

Can someone explain the price differential between 2009 Basket Press $55 @ cellar door, $68 rec. retail and $124.99 @ DM.
Would this be stock accessed through Langtons, hoovering up stocks from Rockford mailing list subscribers wanting a quick turnover?
Strange spread of prices, especially when DM claim to be the cheapest.

WineRick wrote:Would this be stock accessed through Langtons, hoovering up stocks from Rockford mailing list subscribers wanting a quick turnover?

You have got it in one!

Nice ! So people almost give you the stuff through your auction house; back vintages, current vintages, the lot; and you have such a strong retail avenue that you steer it through there for max profit. It makes perfect sense, and I am sure there are no Woolworths shareholders who have a problem with this. A shrewd purchase, was Langtons !

cuttlefish wrote:Nice ! So people almost give you the stuff through your auction house; back vintages, current vintages, the lot; and you have such a strong retail avenue that you steer it through there for max profit. It makes perfect sense, and I am sure there are no Woolworths shareholders who have a problem with this. A shrewd purchase, was Langtons !

So is this how a pseudo '1855 classification' is happening, by stealth, in Australia. Rocky must be rubbing his hands in glee! He's forcing customers / flippers to his cellar-door to get the stock, they then get 'their margin', by dropping theirs trousers to Langtons, who then pass onto Woollies outlets - surely the wine must
be dizzy by then! This surely is a new, and quite novel, take on the compulsory 3 tier system that exists in
the US. Certainly gets in the good books with auction houses who take 15% at either end. Bloody clever.

Pardon my ignorance,
I don't see how Robert is rubbing his hands together with glee. Are you suggesting that the lure of Langtons is the only reason these punters are buying basket press?
If so, then is this not the exact same reasons why all the punters were at Magill CD last Thursday...except it will take them a bit longer if ever.

I am not sure that Robert has ever forced anyone to buy his wine. I am sure he would be clearly pissed about it if that was the only reason that the public punters from March on ( and that includes double dipping Stonewallers) came to the CD, to get their cut from the Auction house etc etc.

Cheers
Craig.

phillisc wrote:Pardon my ignorance,
I don't see how Robert is rubbing his hands together with glee. Are you suggesting that the lure of Langtons is the only reason these punters are buying basket press?
If so, then is this not the exact same reasons why all the punters were at Magill CD last Thursday...except it will take them a bit longer if ever.

I am not sure that Robert has ever forced anyone to buy his wine. I am sure he would be clearly pissed about it if that was the only reason that the public punters from March on ( and that includes double dipping Stonewallers) came to the CD, to get their cut from the Auction house etc etc.

Cheers
Craig.

I'm not saying Rocky has ever forced anything! He's too clever for that.
He's realizing that he will not be able to match the force of the auction prices, so why not work with it,
in conjunction with an army of supporters who blog like buggery, to support the Woollies/Langtons/DM axis, albeit unwittingly.

I suggest Rockford would be able to sell the wine anyway, given its reputation. Regardless, Rocky is pocketing only what he would have got from the original sale, and I'm sure some of it is still wholesale. It's the 'middlemen' making the money here.

Waiters Friend wrote:I suggest Rockford would be able to sell the wine anyway, given its reputation. Regardless, Rocky is pocketing only what he would have got from the original sale, and I'm sure some of it is still wholesale. It's the 'middlemen' making the money here.

Totally agree. Reputation is everything. The biggest middlemen (middlewomen!) would seem to be the
mailing list people, and it's their right, to make a 'little cut', because they made the vineyard in the first place!

Posts of this nature tend to grate somewhat. How anyone thinks any wine maker has any control of the secondary market is beyond me. The secondary market is driven by supply and demand pure and simple. More typically what happens when the secondary market prices increase is that the winery increase their prices. Take Penfolds as the classic example.

I've been on the Rockford mailing list since the 96 vintage and the price has gone from about $42 to $55 over that period. Robert (not Rocky) sells what I believe to be an excellent wine, that I'm more than happy to buy year in year out for a pretty fair price. He does what he can to ensure as many customers get a fair allocation and tries to deter flippers by only allowing folks on the mailing list half a dozen a year of the basket press. If you can drive to the cellar door, if there's any left after the allocation, you might be lucky enough to get a few more.

As far as recommended retail, there's only a very few places that sell it retail and as far as I'm aware they are small independant retailers in SA and they don't get much of it. Dan Murphys, Langton's and Woolworths are most definitely not on the retailing list so their only source is the secondary market.

If DMs now have the relationship with Langtons that they can source auction stock cheaply or even not so cheaply, that has nothing to do with the winery however DMs has stocked Rockford wines as long as they've been in Sydney (and I would assume much longer than that in other states) and it's also been for sale at more than twice what I pay for it all this time. And for the good vintages it can be up to 3 times what I paid for it. But again, supply and demand comes to play here. DMs are obviously buying it at a premium over cellar door on the secondary market (yes, I agree, they may well be getting it a little cheaper now due to the Woolies ownership link) but aged wine of any sort (including wine from their cellar relase program) will sell for a premium over the current releases and so it should. Remember that DM is now taking the risk of the wine not being stored properly and the possible return of corked bottles. I don't personally think that $125 for a bottle of Rockford at DMs is outrageous and it's certainly in line with their prices on other premium wines in the Langtons classifications.

Rockford is a difficult wine to source and I'd pay that if I wanted a bottle at short notice and didn't have any in my cellar. If you don't like it, either don't buy it or get on the mailing list or drive to the Barossa but stop taking cheap swipes at the winery and winemaker who have nothing to do with Dan Murphys pricing or sourcing policies.

WineRick wrote:

Waiters Friend wrote:I suggest Rockford would be able to sell the wine anyway, given its reputation. Regardless, Rocky is pocketing only what he would have got from the original sale, and I'm sure some of it is still wholesale. It's the 'middlemen' making the money here.

Totally agree. Reputation is everything. The biggest middlemen (middlewomen!) would seem to be the
mailing list people, and it's their right, to make a 'little cut', because they made the vineyard in the first place!

Seriously what a crock of shite. Robert thanks people for their support by offering the wine not at $100 a bottle which he could easily get but at $55, he offers the lunches/golf days/special tastings all as thanks. Whatever happened to the satisfaction in seeing an honest, down to earth business do well without the need to 'profit' from it and having a sense of pride that you were able to help what is now an Australian wine icon. Maybe people would feel a bit of resentment if Robert had a Ferrari parked out he front with ROCKBP numberplates, he is the same bloke that he was 30 years ago, no airs, no graces.

WineRick wrote:Totally agree. Reputation is everything. The biggest middlemen (middlewomen!) would seem to be the
mailing list people, and it's their right, to make a 'little cut', because they made the vineyard in the first place!

I can't believe I am reading this. Robert made the vineyard, the tradition, the mystique of the wine and the name of Rockford. Sure, he was supported over the bumpy early years by some faithful followers, just as he supported his growers over those same difficult years. But that does not give people the 'right' to profiteer over his generosity. Robert has often let it be known that if he could find the 'flippers' he would knock them off the mailing list, as he wants them to enjoy the wine.

Hacker wrote:

WineRick wrote:Totally agree. Reputation is everything. The biggest middlemen (middlewomen!) would seem to be the
mailing list people, and it's their right, to make a 'little cut', because they made the vineyard in the first place!

I can't believe I am reading this. Robert made the vineyard, the tradition, the mystique of the wine and the name of Rockford. Sure, he was supported over the bumpy early years by some faithful followers, just as he supported his growers over those same difficult years. But that does not give people the 'right' to profiteer over his generosity. Robert has often let it be known that if he could find the 'flippers' he would knock them off the mailing list, as he wants them to enjoy the wine.

Perhaps individually numbered bottles or laser etching. Will not take long to match numbers against buyers.

On a lighter note, any tasting notes out for the 2009 BP? I'm at the CD on Thursday so curious.

rens wrote:

Hacker wrote:

WineRick wrote:Totally agree. Reputation is everything. The biggest middlemen (middlewomen!) would seem to be the
mailing list people, and it's their right, to make a 'little cut', because they made the vineyard in the first place!

I can't believe I am reading this. Robert made the vineyard, the tradition, the mystique of the wine and the name of Rockford. Sure, he was supported over the bumpy early years by some faithful followers, just as he supported his growers over those same difficult years. But that does not give people the 'right' to profiteer over his generosity. Robert has often let it be known that if he could find the 'flippers' he would knock them off the mailing list, as he wants them to enjoy the wine.

Perhaps individually numbered bottles or laser etching. Will not take long to match numbers against buyers.

Langtons and the like won't divulge these details so unless Rockford themselves buy up the bottles to find out who it is....I don't think it's going to happen.

I doubt it is good business sense to do that anyways...I'm sure he'd rather not have the flippers but I'd imagine it would get very ugly trying to search for people selling their wine.

I'd imagine that the only way to cut down on the number of flippers is to require people to buy more of the other wine...or raise the price of BP...Both situations would make it not worth it to flip the wine. Even if auction prices increase, there is a limit to what people will buy it at..and it just won't be worth it...

However, both of those have their own set of risks...and really, their business seems to be doing fine as is...Long time buyers who really enjoy the wine are getting it at more than a fair price and people make an effort to come to the Cellar Door as well so I think it all works out...

To be honest, the 15 or so dollars you'd make flipping the latest release just isn't worth the effort..I'm not sure why people would bother. I think the only way I'd end up buying and then selling it right away is because I bought some, tried it, didn't think it was worth keeping, and got rid of it..

I agree here with Kris, Dave Vino and others, could not agree more.
Robert O'C and David Kalleske (GM of Rockford) are clearly pissed by this practice.
Yes having accessibility ( unlike wendouree) for Joe Public to pop up to the CD in March each year to buy and hopefully keep and or to flick BP has both benefits and drawbacks.
Robert won't go down the path of other Barossa makers who have an initial outrageous price to hopefully dent the second hand market.
Nor would I think he would consider going down the path of making BP mail order only. He is a decent bloke who respects long standing mail order customers and the public alike.

Where i think a little survielance could be in place is for those bastards who flick SVS immediately on release, as foolish as those who are trying to flog 06 Grange at auction, after the 15% buyers and sellers commissions, freight and insurance...where is the profit.....there isn't any!!

Even if I was buying my first bottle of BP ever, DMs would be the last port of call.

Cheers Craig.

It frustrates me being in Sydney and not joined up that people just turn it round to make a profit.

I would love to get to Adelaide in March to go up to CD myself and get some. Instead I have had to resort to bribing one of my staff to go up there and get what he can for me. I would loyally join tomorrow and could clearly say it was all for me and would never be onsold.

over 5yrs and im still waiting ... maybe i should stock up on more rockfords then i currently do, ahhh to be a stonewaller

Do you buy regularly? no point sitting on the list, they take into account how much you are buying, not just how long you are on the list.

yeah usually buy every yr, though only a 6 pack or maybe a dozen
no doubt i dont buy enough so i expect it, i get my allocation of wendouree, marius and lakes folly so i cant complain too much ; )
rockfords the only one left that im waiting to be given access to

VINH NGUYEN wrote:yeah usually buy every yr, though only a 6 pack or maybe a dozen
no doubt i dont buy enough so i expect it, i get my allocation of wendouree, marius and lakes folly so i cant complain too much ; )
rockfords the only one left that im waiting to be given access to

I know people who've been on the waiting list shorter than 5 years and now get Stonewallers allocation. They bought 6 bottles of cabernet every year while they waited....


Mike

mmm Wendouree - that's another bridge too far - reckon I would be dead before I get on that one.

Is the BP actually limited in numbers by the small size of the vineyard or do Rockford simply decide not to produce very much? The situation would improve if there was more of it produced.

.

You're not sure how they can? Or why?

You figure the newest release goes for 80 at auction..so people are paying 92 after they add the buyers premium... It actually lists for 80-100 as expected price so if it goes for 100 (which I doubt) then that is 115. Certainly they'll have it it for more than what it typically goes for at auction.

If you're asking is 55 cheaper than what it could go for...Yes, the market definitely shows that...and Rockford should be congratulated for trying to keep the prices reasonable for its long term supporters and for wine drinkers in general.

My guess is that now many of the Barossa shiraz labels that cropped up in the 90s and naughties are no longer popular in the the US and UK, there may not be buyers for these grapes. Hence those growers that jumped ship for the (short-term) cash may go back to the likes of Rockford in a bid to sell what are obviously decent grapes. If Robert's interested, it might push up the volume of BP in the future. Of course I could well be wrong......

Mike

Teisto wrote:mmm Wendouree - that's another bridge too far - reckon I would be dead before I get on that one.

My main problem with them is that I will be dead before they are ready to drink!

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the production volume of the Basket Press?

Michael McNally wrote:

Teisto wrote:mmm Wendouree - that's another bridge too far - reckon I would be dead before I get on that one.

My main problem with them is that I will be dead before they are ready to drink!

I can see some synergies coming together here. I'll bypass the list, drink the wines when they are ready and provide you an update when I get to the other side with you?

Teisto wrote:

Michael McNally wrote:

Teisto wrote:mmm Wendouree - that's another bridge too far - reckon I would be dead before I get on that one.

My main problem with them is that I will be dead before they are ready to drink!

I can see some synergies coming together here. I'll bypass the list, drink the wines when they are ready and provide you an update when I get to the other side with you?