Unoaked reds

[Waiters Friend]

G'day

I'm currently sipping on a 2009 Barossa Grenache, Mourvedre, Shiraz that was around $16 to buy. I won't name the producer, as this thread is intended to discuss the concept generally, not an individual wine.

The wine itself is sound, It's grenache dominant, so there is a bit of that candyshop character that young grenache can have. The mourvedre and shiraz add some complexity, but something's not there......

...then I read the back label, to discover the phrase 'without the use of oak'. That's it.

There's little tannic grip, and while the fruit is pronounced and of some quality, it seems a little one dimensional. IMHO, with a touch of the right oak, this could be a much better and complete wine.

What is the rationale for not oaking reds? I understand it is cheaper, of course, but presumably the winemaker is trying to make the best wine he/she can from the available fruit. Why would you deliberately limit the wine's potential by not adding that finishing touch?

That's only my view, of course, and I am sure there will be people who love the style. I don't see it, however, in the same way I don't go for unwooded chardonnay.

I'd be interested to hear opinions / start a discussion.

Cheers

Allan

[Jay60A]

Hi Allan,

There is a case for a style where the wine-maker simply wants the fruit to express itself as purely as possible, although for reds these are still "low-oak" as opposed to no oak.

I'm thinking Penfolds St. Henri here and maybe (??) some of the old Hunter shiraz wines. Although I think the experimental Granges (where no new oak was available for a period of three years) clearly showed that the oak treatment greatly improves aging on premium wines, the fact that the 1971 St Henri is seen as a great wine in it's own right shows that the right fruit and right wine making can age magnificently for 40 years.

I think if you go without oak, you lose the oak tannin and hence the winemaker has to structure the wine only from the grapes, extraction, inclusion of some whole bunches etc in order to get the tannins, structure and complexity. So in some ways it's quite inspiring if seen as a purists challenge ... also I think the oak-levels depend on the grapes so no oak may be great for Pinot, interesting for Shiraz and probably a mistake with Cabernet.

Does anyone know of an oaked Riesling btw? Horrible thought I know, but a grape that reflects that sometimes wine just needs to be grape juice.

A great question btw.

Jay

[DaveB]

the fact that the 1971 St Henri is seen as a great wine in it's own right shows that the right fruit and right wine making can age magnificently for 40 years.


Jay

And a fairly healthy dose of powdered tannin at several stages of the wine-making process.....that's these days anyway

Unoaked reds provide diversity of style and a counterpoint to the many oaked wines on the market....sometimes it boils down to philosophical issues i.e. less intervention & wanting the wine to express an increased sense of place...other times it is just to provide a point of difference and a different style.

It would be a pretty boring old wine world if everything saw oak.

Heemskerk do an oak aged riesling or maybe they ferment it in old oak....I can't remember....lot's of people playing with skin contact & residual sugar these days also.

[daz]

As far as I can recall the only non-oaked red I've ever tried was Teusner Joshua 05(? - perhaps the first vintage?), maybe a Normans Grenache that I enjoyed some years ago. The Joshua was quite full-bodied without oak (got about five bottles at a ridiculous price due to a checkout error, gave one to a work collegue who loved it too) and I revelled in the fruit purity. It'd be my go-to wine regardless of vintage if I was looking for an unoaked red. Don't think I've tried it since, the Riebke being my value wine from Teusner.

Interesting subject Allan, it opens the question as to whether previous taste experiences have attuned the majority of our palates to expect oak tannins in red wines, even if minimal as imparted by old oak barrels a la St Henri or some Tahbilks(though in recent years I've not been sure whether Tahbilk uses some newer oak).

It's my understanding that pressed whole-bunch fermentation can extract extra tannins from pips and stalks to be used as a component in juice from naturally-macerated, destalked berries to add tannin to the finished wine. But I'm probably wrong. And then, I've drunk wines that I thought showed greenish, drying tannins that I've considered "stalky". Only too happy to be corrected.

Cheers

daz

[ticklenow1]

I am almost certain that Torbreck "CUVEE JUVENILES" GSM is unoaked. I have had some beauties of these over the years and they are normally fantastic. I have only drank them young as I was under the impression that Torbreck make it to be drunk that way, although they say it will benifit from time in the cellar. It seems to be more common with Grenache dominant wines in the reds. I think it helps to be a Grenache lover (I do prefer them oaked though).

[Michael McNally]

Nice topic Allan

I would imagine that while many wines do not trumpet the fact, that a fair few reds see little or no new oak. If the fruit expresses what the winemaker is looking for without it.......

I've tried a number of GSMs and some of the ones with minimal oak (at least that I can detect) are fab. I love the musk stick/candyshop elements and general 'brightness" that I associate with less oak. I like the other style as well, but with different foods, different styles suit.

Cheers

Michael

[peckel]

I am almost certain that Torbreck "CUVEE JUVENILES" GSM is unoaked. I have had some beauties of these over the years and they are normally fantastic. I have only drank them young as I was under the impression that Torbreck make it to be drunk that way, although they say it will benifit from time in the cellar. It seems to be more common with Grenache dominant wines in the reds. I think it helps to be a Grenache lover (I do prefer them oaked though).

I can confirm the juveniles is aged in stainless steel, and tend to agree with daz that wines produced in this manner are much enjoyable young, i had an 03 juveniles last year, and it had lost the balance of it's primary fruit and didn't have the depth or structure in the mid to back palate.

[Waiters Friend]

Nice topic Allan

I would imagine that while many wines do not trumpet the fact, that a fair few reds see little or no new oak. If the fruit expresses what the winemaker is looking for without it.......

I've tried a number of GSMs and some of the ones with minimal oak (at least that I can detect) are fab. I love the musk stick/candyshop elements and general 'brightness" that I associate with less oak. I like the other style as well, but with different foods, different styles suit.

Cheers

Michael

Thanks Michael. Musk stick was exactly was I was looking for when I was thinking 'candyshop' in my initial description. Spot on!

Having said that, it's not a style that I would drink more than a glass of at a time (while recognising the quality of the fruit present), and the remaining wine is destined for a pasta sauce Whether it is my conditioning, as Daz suggested, or just my personal preference, I noticed the lack of oak too much. My 'unwooded chardonnay' reference still stands, also. Give me a riesling instead

Cheers

Allan

[Sean O'Sullivan]

deleted

[Bick]

A fair few european lighter styles, made as "drink young" wines are unoaked. Think of Beaujolais Nouveau, and some Barbera d'Asti and Dolcetto d'Alba...

[jafa]

A fair few european lighter styles, made as "drink young" wines are unoaked. Think of Beaujolais Nouveau, and some Barbera d'Asti and Dolcetto d'Alba...

Not a fan of Nouveau, but cru Beaujolais and roses from anywhere, Cab Franc and other reds which have little or no oak
go down fine with me. The absence of wood means you can chill a red wine without the appearance of ugly hard tannins;
great for a summer daze (come on summer!!) and a burnt offering from the barbie.

jafa

[Bick]

Not a fan of Nouveau

jafa

No, fair comment Just an example. Do you know if Te Mata's gamay noir sees much oak? That can be a refreshing drop for a barbie...

[jafa]

Do you know if Te Mata's gamay noir sees much oak? That can be a refreshing drop for a barbie...

Nah, dunno....... but the style suggests none or very little.

[Loztralia]

I tried Teusner's unoaked red at the Artisans of the Barossa tasting recently and I must admit it more or less made me realise why oak is generally used - not a bad wine by any means but distinctly lacking in 'oomph'. Otherwise I was a big fan of Teusner's offerings across the board.