Penfolds Bin Release

[tim1210]

Hello all,

Popped in yesterday to have a taste of the latest bin releases and found myself feeling quite underwhelmed so I thought I would kick off the annual discussion of the Pennies Bin wines and see what others thought. The 28 & 128 i thought had some nice fruity stuff going on. What do you all think of them?

Cheers

Tim

[AndrewCowley]

Tasted the 2007 Bin 389 yesterday and as expected it was very tight. Needs time of course. Couldn't really get a taste for the fruit, couldn't really tell what was going on there. Seemed harder to drink at this early stage compared to the 2006 I tried this time last year. Don't think I'll be buying any yet whereas I did buy a 6 pack of the 2006 this time last year. Time will tell.

[I Love Shiraz]

I did't taste these wines, but have not got excited by Penfolds Bin wines for some time. For mine the quality dropped off quite a few years ago.

[TiggerK]

Agreed, so what's up there?? We know Mr Gago can make great wine (Grange 04 anyone?), we know the vintages haven't been all bad, we certainly know the prices are going way up relative to CPI etc and yet no-one seems excited by the red icon anymore (other than Grange, and the occasional St Henri/707 etc). Are we stuck with the memories of 90, 91, 96 and 98, and since then it's all been on a different seemingly lower level??

I also suspect it's a bit of tall poppy, we've moved on from boring old big Penfolds, and now look for smaller producers of interest??

Haven't tried 07/08 new release yet, but get em now if you're going to while the pricing is at it's best.

Cheers
TiggerK

[Craig(NZ)]

tried the 28 and 128 yesterday. not bad wines but didn't really move me.

im amazed how anyone can think a 407 is worth $45-50 these days! dreams! big dreams!

[Jay60A]

Agreed, so what's up there?? We know Mr Gago can make great wine (Grange 04 anyone?), we know the vintages haven't been all bad, we certainly know the prices are going way up relative to CPI etc and yet no-one seems excited by the red icon anymore (other than Grange, and the occasional St Henri/707 etc). Are we stuck with the memories of 90, 91, 96 and 98, and since then it's all been on a different seemingly lower level??

Yes ... Actually, and to be fair, I would rate Penfolds 2004 wines across the board over the 1998s.

The '98s are nice wines, but they do not have the fruit clarity of the cooler-vintage 1996 and 2004s and I find them a bit murky in comparison. It's really all about the fruit source at the price level: the 1996 Bin 389 has not since been bettered (despite other vintages "coming up in the fast lane"according to Penfolds marketeers, in the same way as the 1976 Koonunga Hill (unconfirmedly with excess Grange or 707 in it) has not been.

[fatdoi]

the penfolds bins are pricing themselves out of the market for anyone who knows little bit about wines. mid 20s for bin 28, 128, 138.... think they reached the upper reach of acceptable price point but low 40s for 407 & high 40s for 389, i'll not hesitate to swap it for a bottle of torbreck struie or any two hands garden series.... not that the 407/389 are bad wines, not at all but when you consider they're priced as entry premium bracket.... i expected bit more return from my $50 note....

[Broughy]

I think the RRP are quite a bit higher than that. And....the best prices seem to be around $50 for 389, $30 bin 28 and $40 bin 407. seems some gentrification of the 407 going on

[odyssey]

Not to mention that the mid-to-late-90s Pennies boost came from the international market (combined with overagressive sensationalist marketing), who are now rubbishing them and turning away in droves.

[Rednick]

Whilst I agree that there are many wines out there that offer better QPR than the Penfolds Bin wines, they do still have a special appeal to me. I always look forward to the annual release and normally find that the various release specials, coupled with my sentimentality make them a buy for me.

This year was no different, went to a tasting where the wines had been opened the previous day. Not ideal conditions but for this sort of money they should be able to hold up for 24 hours.

Ended up purchasing 6 x 128 and then a mixed half dozen of 407, 389 and 23.

The 138 wasn't available, so I'll have to grab a bottle from somewhere to try as this is also normally a buy for me.

Cheers - Nick

[Craig(NZ)]

I even see today a advertisment saying 407 RRP is $59.90!

Call me a biased kiwi git but why would anyone without big big rocks in their head pay $40 (special release price) for a 407 when on March 1st you can also choose a wine the class of te mata awatea for $30 on release??

There is no comparison when it comes to sophistication, poise, elegance and simply put; class. What is the definition of "fine wine" again?

407 is a plonkers wine. It is a $20 bottle dressed in $40+ drag. It tries to justify itself with offers of power, structure, size, concentration and these elements are thrown together in a clumsy mish mash of an attempt at something half decent. The only vintage I have any time for is the 94.

Just my opinion of course, feel free to be PC

389 I have a little more time for in some vintages but only buy top vintages when at massively discounted rates I wont pay $40+ for it!

C

[monghead]

On the whole, Penfolds seem to be selling less wine these days (correct me if I am wrong). Perhaps they are raising prices to maintain profit margins (as it seems some people buy these wines year in, year out) rather than reduce prices to capture larger market share and thereby maintain equivalent profits.

These surplus wines they will store as "museum stock", to be released later at inflated prices again, hopefully when the pendulum swings back in favour with Pennies being sexy.

Nevertheless, I certainly haven't bought any significant amount of the Bins since 1998, and a smattering of the 2001 and 2004 only.

Monghead.

[dazza1968]

tried their wine on sat and bought some of the 05 Riesling which i found brilliant and a little bin28 and that was it .

will prob get some 389 but not yet ,, and as for the 407 too many disappointments from the wine club that its too hit and miss for the $ .

there is no way its a 40 dollar wine and struggle at 30 bucks then maybe consider it at 25 bucks and well 20 bucks i would buy it Maybe

regards Dazza

[Broughy]

Craig,
Entirely agree. 407 is not on my radar, even the older cellared versions are not doing it for me. the NZ options offer much more interest as do the WA $30-$40 options.

[Boyeah]

tried their wine on sat and bought some of the 05 Riesling which i found brilliant and a little bin28 and that was it .

will prob get some 389 but not yet ,, and as for the 407 too many disappointments from the wine club that its too hit and miss for the $ .

there is no way its a 40 dollar wine and struggle at 30 bucks then maybe consider it at 25 bucks and well 20 bucks i would buy it Maybe

regards Dazza

2007 vintage on both the 407 & 389 is bit off compared to the last 3 release, no buy for me.
Cheers
Boyeah

[Bick]

407 is a plonkers wine. It is a $20 bottle dressed in $40+ drag. It tries to justify itself with offers of power, structure, size, concentration and these elements are thrown together in a clumsy mish mash of an attempt at something half decent. The only vintage I have any time for is the 94.

Recent pricing causes me to agree, although I thought 04 and 05 were both good wines tbh. I've not had an 90's vintages to compare. I got a few 04 and (I think) a single bottle of 05 around the $20 mark - quite happy at that price. At or around $40 I'd much refer a Vasse Felix cab from WA or a Penley Estate cab from Coonawarra - they examples of Aussie cabs that represent much better buying for me than 407. I guess it would be a long list for better buying since the major price hike 2 years ago though... $50+ is indeed getting silly. 389 on the other hand is perhaps still a good wine at current pricing?

[AndrewCowley]

The Bin 407 needs some identity. Where is it from? Penfolds say South Australia. Wow that's a big place. Do we even know year from year where Penfolds are sourcing it from?

I have a bunch of 2004's (10 out of 12 originally purchased) that I bought in my early days of wine buying. Thought it was the bees knees then. Not so sure any more. I had one about 6 months ago and was not moved. Hopefully they travel ok in the next few years.

[Chuck]

I remember buying the 86 Bin 389 for $10 and 85 Grange for $55. The 389 set me on a new course. Scarily enough that was 20 years ago. The world of wine has moved on but only Penfolds' prices have kept pace and a lot more. Good wines but....

Chuck

[Jay60A]

The only Penfolds I have bought post-1998 has been the 02 and 04 St. Henris and some bargain 99 RWT. I should have picked up some 04 389 as it was initially cheap and more 99 RWT but now long gone. Since then prices have rise in the UK although StH. is still okay value at 25GBP (vs 20GBP for 389!). I do not expect this to last ...

My view after my annual trip to HK is the prices now reflects what Fosters can get in Asia as Penfolds has a big rep. and they can shift a lot to the China market via Hong Kong. Even at the prices it looks value compared to GCC Bdx and 389 / RWT / Grange / 707 shifts easily ... Asia is a naive market though learning fast and the two Australian brands are Penfolds and Henschke, dragged up by their icons.

[n4sir]

I even see today a advertisment saying 407 RRP is $59.90!

Call me a biased kiwi git but why would anyone without big big rocks in their head pay $40 (special release price) for a 407 when on March 1st you can also choose a wine the class of te mata awatea for $30 on release??

There is no comparison when it comes to sophistication, poise, elegance and simply put; class. What is the definition of "fine wine" again?

407 is a plonkers wine. It is a $20 bottle dressed in $40+ drag. It tries to justify itself with offers of power, structure, size, concentration and these elements are thrown together in a clumsy mish mash of an attempt at something half decent. The only vintage I have any time for is the 94.

Just my opinion of course, feel free to be PC

C

The Bin 407 needs some identity. Where is it from? Penfolds say South Australia. Wow that's a big place. Do we even know year from year where Penfolds are sourcing it from?

I have a bunch of 2004's (10 out of 12 originally purchased) that I bought in my early days of wine buying. Thought it was the bees knees then. Not so sure any more. I had one about 6 months ago and was not moved. Hopefully they travel ok in the next few years.

As an ardent critic of the lack of direction of Bin 407 between the mid-90s up to 2004, I cannot stress how much I disagree with these sort of comments which to be honest are beginning to shit me.

The 1990 & 1991 Bin 407s are even better than the 1994 (which has always had a bit of a cult following because of its toss of the coin showdown with its big brother at the Sydney Show), and if you tried well cellared bottles of them blind against other much vaunted wines I'd have a pretty safe bet they'd mow them down. I've been there, done that, and witnessed the shock look of surprise when the bags come off, not to mention the denials that they just can't be better than John Riddoch, 707, etc...

The wines deserved to be bagged from the mid '90s where the sourcing and winemaking wildly fluctuated year to year (ie. one year cool climate Limestone Coast, one year Barossa/McLaren Vale, one year aborted 707 with a truckload of new American oak, etc).

From 2004 onwards they've gone back to the blueprint of what the early 407s used to be - the focus on cabernet fruit primarly from the cooler southern Australian regions (ie. Limestone Coast with areas like Robe, Bordertown, Coonawarra, etc, heavily feature) with more restrained oak, and the wine is far more consistent and better for it. In my opinion the 2004, 2005 & 2006 vintages are some of the best made under the label, and for that matter some of the best cabernets from South Australia in all of those vintages. For the record I really don't give a pig's fart if it's a single vineyard wine or multi-region blends if the standard is as good as those - I've acknowledged the 2007 is a step back but that's not surprising considering the heavy frost damage in Coonawarra and stressed and depleted yields elsewhere, and they're hardly alone (needless to say there's precious little I'm buying from the vintage from anyone).

I also agree the pricing is "ambitious" to say the least, but bagging the quality of the wines based on the RRP is just plain wrong. By all means point put where the wines fall short and identify specific wines that are better quality and better QPR, but I'm starting to get a little sick of people (who should know better) bagging Penfolds just for the sake of it.

My 2c,
Ian

[odyssey]

The Bin 407 needs some identity. Where is it from? Penfolds say South Australia. Wow that's a big place. Do we even know year from year where Penfolds are sourcing it from?

I have a bunch of 2004's (10 out of 12 originally purchased) that I bought in my early days of wine buying. Thought it was the bees knees then. Not so sure any more. I had one about 6 months ago and was not moved. Hopefully they travel ok in the next few years.

I made similar mistakes with the whole 98 bin series, back then I didn't know better, fell for the intensive marketing campaign.

As I had missed out on 96s, I expected 98 to be the bees knees... been a touch underwhelmed with them... now I'm once bitten, twice shy re. Penfolds. The smaller wineries get my money these days.

[Jay60A]

I also agree the pricing is "ambitious" to say the least, but bagging the quality of the wines based on the RRP is just plain wrong. By all means point put where the wines fall short and identify specific wines that are better quality and better QPR, but I'm starting to get a little sick of people (who should know better) bagging Penfolds just for the sake of it.

Urrrrr ... why? It's called consumer opinion. No conspiracy theories but I think there's enough consensus here (and people in the forum know a lot) that the Penfolds prices need to be cheaper and the wines to be better if Penfolds would like to receive the acclaim and expectation that followed 1996 and 1998. You can say bagging, but it's a reflection that Penfolds is not where it was at the Bin levels at least in QPR. And I think Craig mentioned a specific wine he'd recommend over 407?

I'm sure the odd bod from Penfolds monitors general opinion here that the StH is at least fairly priced for the QPR ... it cuts both ways, and it's just opinions.

[PaulV]

From 2004 onwards they've gone back to the blueprint of what the early 407s used to be - the focus on cabernet fruit primarly from the cooler southern Australian regions (ie. Limestone Coast with areas like Robe, Bordertown, Coonawarra, etc, heavily feature) Ian

But I noticed in your own TNs on the 2007 vintage the following:

2007 Penfolds Bin 407 Cabernet Sauvignon (South Australia with significant parcels from Coonawarra, McLaren Vale and Langhorne Creek, 14.0% alc) RRP $54.99, drink 2010-2022

Hardly call McLaren Vale and langhorne creek cool climate - in fact assuming that the 3 areas are around the same proportions then clearly this is a very warm climate wine.

cheers

paul

[fatdoi]

I also agree the pricing is "ambitious" to say the least, but bagging the quality of the wines based on the RRP is just plain wrong. By all means point put where the wines fall short and identify specific wines that are better quality and better QPR, but I'm starting to get a little sick of people (who should know better) bagging Penfolds just for the sake of it.

Urrrrr ... why? It's called consumer opinion. No conspiracy theories but I think there's enough consensus here (and people in the forum know a lot) that the Penfolds prices need to be cheaper and the wines to be better if Penfolds would like to receive the acclaim and expectation that followed 1996 and 1998. You can say bagging, but it's a reflection that Penfolds is not where it was at the Bin levels at least in QPR. And I think Craig mentioned a specific wine he'd recommend over 407?



I'm sure the odd bod from Penfolds monitors general opinion here that the StH is at least fairly priced for the QPR ... it cuts both ways, and it's just opinions.

Couldn't agree more, in the end, it's the consumers who put their hard earned money in exchange for those bottles & for some of them who are buying based on predegree & sticker value, penfolds will keep on moving them in truckloads. (I was also one who bought alot of them during my early days).

As for the StH, the only wine in the range which I also agree to be very well made belongs in the $50s range not $70s as Penfolds priced their wines too agressively in the last decade IMO in fact they should be on par or even cheaper than other smaller producers in similar products.

Every other new vintage of bins come out & i'll drop by Dan Murphys for a tasting (recent one 06' 389), I found them to be nice, agreeable & that's that... but when I asked myself the question, "Do I want to spend $50 on this bottle of relatively good wine or something I can get similar or more satisfaction for $30-35?" I always walked out with $30 bottle in the paper bag. And if we delve deeper into more premium stuff, will i go for a bottle of RWT/707 ($150) or 2 hands Ares/Torbreck Factor/Mosswood CS?...... hmm.....

disclaimer: I'm not here to trash Penfolds, they do make some good wines but not the price I'd pay to get them that's all.

[dazza1968]

i am not bagging penfolds what i have been talking about IMHO is true value for money . early 90's is along way away from today $ value since then multi nationals have had clever marketing and if you didnt want to do any homework then its a great bet with friends etc also good when you have to offload in auction as prices seem to do well like the 96 bin 389 was 22 bucks on release and now 80 to 100 per bottle (a very good vintage ),thats a great return but has the 407 done as well i am not sure as i dont follow it as closely . for me give me 389 , i know its slightly more but has value added to it imho .

Regards dazza

[Loztralia]

i am not bagging penfolds what i have been talking about IMHO is true value for money . early 90's is along way away from today $ value since then multi nationals have had clever marketing and if you didnt want to do any homework then its a great bet with friends etc also good when you have to offload in auction as prices seem to do well like the 96 bin 389 was 22 bucks on release and now 80 to 100 per bottle (a very good vintage ),thats a great return but has the 407 done as well i am not sure as i dont follow it as closely . for me give me 389 , i know its slightly more but has value added to it imho .

Regards dazza

Incidentally, $22 to c$90 in 11 years isn't that great a return - just over 13.5% annualised. That wouldn't be bad but considering you'd have made nothing like that much on the 95 and 97 vintages (and not quite as much on the 98) you'd not be getting rich on a Bin 389 portfolio.

FWIW, to make the same return on a 2007 bought at the RRP of $65 you'd have to sell it in 2021 for $265. That seems a little implausible but I'd certainly not rule it out as a 2020 price on the (much better, apparently) 2006 389.

Finally - doesn't this argument about Penfold's Bin prices come up every year? They still seem to be selling the stuff so I guess the pricing can't be too far off whack.

[fatdoi]

Finally - doesn't this argument about Penfold's Bin prices come up every year? They still seem to be selling the stuff so I guess the pricing can't be too far off whack.

i think it's because it's convenient for casual drinkers who want some well made wines but never bothered to research the market. Classic example, a dinner I went to recently was about 50 people & the hostess rolled out dozen+ 98' 389.... which gave me opportunity to review it as i don't want to pop mine @ home. Quite good, still young imo to drink now & I know she has no clue about wines as she only bought them because Penfold's a recognised brand + good vintage & there are ALOT of those people around so it's great business.

I think it's the brand that people keep buying Penfolds, it's like there're always people who buy Mercedes, do they always make better car?? I can always buy something cheaper & better but people buy them because of the Merc badge & the emotional or confidence they placed on that brand, so they're willing to pay that premium for good but not always the best cars.....

[dazza1968]

Finally - doesn't this argument about Penfold's Bin prices come up every year? They still seem to be selling the stuff so I guess the pricing can't be too far off whack.

i think it's because it's convenient for casual drinkers who want some well made wines but never bothered to research the market. Classic example, a dinner I went to recently was about 50 people & the hostess rolled out dozen+ 98' 389.... which gave me opportunity to review it as i don't want to pop mine @ home. Quite good, still young imo to drink now & I know she has no clue about wines as she only bought them because Penfold's a recognised brand + good vintage & there are ALOT of those people around so it's great business.

I think it's the brand that people keep buying Penfolds, it's like there're always people who buy Mercedes, do they always make better car?? I can always buy something cheaper & better but people buy them because of the Merc badge & the emotional or confidence they placed on that brand, so they're willing to pay that premium for good but not always the best cars.....

yes well said and for me i thought the toyota was the range , Good ,very reliable and will last alongtime without too much to worry about ,has good resale with the right model ,have covered most priice ranges and if you like the good stuff then buy a lexus LOL

[Craig(NZ)]

specific wines that are better quality and better QPR, .

In my honest opinion, it is getting to the stage where you could almost randomly pick any $50 wine off the shelf and it would be a better wine than 407. It is not a classy wine. it is a meat and two vege braun no brain unshaven brute.

The early nineties wines were very good. I think the only vintage I never tried was 1990. 1991 was good. The 1994 has cellared well and I really like it, I think I have one or two left. The 1995 was a weedy thin disgrace, anyone that bought a 1996 diverted cash from the 96 389 so needs to be mocked. The 1997 was another absolute disgrace. The 1998 I actually liked when it was released but has gone nowhere. The 1999-2003? were forced clunky confused rubbish (they are all a blur, tried every year and not impressed). I can't remember the 2004 though I have tried it. The 2005 was not too bad but overpriced (I was buying 05 Wynns JR for $50 that year). The 2006 I only tasted once blind and it was trash that night.

Now I am not going to put down other people that have lesser expectations (When I first got into wine I used to ask at wineries for something 'grunty'), but after 15 years of drinking wine I heavily value wines of subtlety, complexity, elegance, grace and sophistication. 407 is so far away from those characteristics it would need a telescope to keep an eye on them. This is the angle i'm coming from here. Some people who love the bigger riper styled wines may not particularly enjoy what I like either.

Even when I do fancy something with a bit more substance though 407 would be the last place I look. As i said imo its a $20 wine in $40 drag

[John #11]

Have tasted the Bins 28, 128, 389 and 407 of the new release, and can honestly say I won't be buying any this year, and may not buy until the 2009 vintages appear in the market. Of course this doesn't apply to the RWT, and 707.