The Auswine Forum

redwhiteandrose wrote:Again, I'm with you. I'm amazed how long most wine keeps. Maybe it depends on your palate - if you just like primary fruit flavours or not.

I'm curious to why you can't sell wine in Queensland. Do the auction houses refuse to sell it due to possible as storage conditions? Even if it's been cellared professionally?

No I'm just reticent to send wine anywhere because of care, weather or carriers. The behaviour of some of the auction houses is also a worry. Prices for exceptional wines are often artificially maintained which may be good for the seller if they are patient but a worry if u haven't got a long time to dispose of them. It's iniquitous for the buyer to have to pay inflated prices. I'm not happy to have auctioneers flexing their muscles with my wine. Besides many of my wines are like my children...only better behaved!

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2 x Head Wines 'Contrarian' Syrah
2 x Head Wines Old Vine Grenache

2014 Tyrrells Vat 9 x 12
2014 Vat 1 Semillion x 6
plus dozen vat 7 and vat 15 - cheapies whilst i wait 21 years!

redwhiteandrose wrote:' worthlessness of the current Aussie peso.'

Felix, I know you are only kidding. Remember that the Aussie is still worth 50% more than it was about 10 years ago.

There's a cycle in sight, an Aussie wine renaissance, IMO if the $AUD drops below 70cents. Australian wine is just going to be hard to beat in terms of value. I'm seeing it now as an Aussie expat especially in the sub-30USD a bottle bracket.

12 x Penna Lane Riesling 2014

JamieBahrain wrote:

redwhiteandrose wrote:' worthlessness of the current Aussie peso.'

Felix, I know you are only kidding. Remember that the Aussie is still worth 50% more than it was about 10 years ago.

There's a cycle in sight, an Aussie wine renaissance, IMO if the $AUD drops below 70cents. Australian wine is just going to be hard to beat in terms of value. I'm seeing it now as an Aussie expat especially in the sub-30USD a bottle bracket.

yea, Jamie, it is awesome for us, if you are paid in HKD or CNY, but sooner or later the imports into Oz are going to skyrocket in price. Actually, I have stopped trying to relate everything I buy back to AUD, it just seems way too expensive, so now I just think in terms of CNY.

G'day Felix

What I mean is the lower $AUD is seeing the QPR rise dramatically on Aussie wines abroad in comparison to the Old World especially. And if it comes off significantly further, the resurgence of Australian wine on the export scene should be expected both on the basis of its new found affordability and the fact there's a lot of good stuff being produced.

Hi Felix and Jamie,

interested in your thoughts about improved QPR with Aussie wines.
Can not ever see that In Australia though.
Short of moving to HK to secure a bargain or two, large companies here in Oz (who are hoping on a wing and and prayer that they slay the export market), will still charge outrageous prices back home for the same wines.

I take the sub $USD30 for you approaches a sub $USD60 market for me?

Cheers
Craig

yea, I understand Jamie. That is what I meant too. But remember, for the Australian consumer, the drop in the dollar is bad.... local wines cost the same, as the declining dollar is irrelevant to the local market, and the cost of imported wine increases. Sure, for the Aussie wine industry AS A WHOLE, the cheap dollar is a bonanza!!! (as it is with all exporters)
as I mentioned before, it is a quirk with HK wine prices at the moment. If I go to wine-searcher and find something that costs HKD 1000, in 2012 that was the equivalent of $120 AUD, now the same shop in HK (specifically, a particular Bordeaux) still sells the wine for HKD 1000, but of course it's AUD value has risen to about $180!!!!!! For me and you, the cost has not changed (actually, for me, slightly cheaper as the CNY has increased slightly against the HKD, which is strange because there is supposed to be a fixed exchange rate), and for the Aussie purchaser the price has not changed, if the wine is available in Australia at 2012 prices, which they sometimes are, but it APPEARS to be far more expensive. (I hope that poor explanation is understandable)
So, in terms of AUD, a wine that is a fantastic bargain in 2012 is no longer so great, particularly if Aussie retailers still have the wine in stock and have not increased their price to reflect the weakening dollar (which they don't, because it has been relatively stable to the euro)
A good example of that is the Faiveley Clos des Cortons 2009. I actually purchased more IN AUSTRALIA at the end of last year, because the price of the wine at a retailer there had not increased since it's release in 2012..... the wine was now only 10% more than I could get it for in HK, so with all the hassle getting it to my cellar in Australia from here, it was better just to buy it in Aus. But strangely, when I first purchased the wine in 2012, the price in HK was almost HALF that of Australia!!!

If you can understand this ramble, then you will understand why there are a large number of forex billionaires out there.

phillisc wrote:Hi Felix and Jamie,

interested in your thoughts about improved QPR with Aussie wines.
Can not ever see that In Australia though.
Short of moving to HK to secure a bargain or two, large companies here in Oz (who are hoping on a wing and and prayer that they slay the export market), will still charge outrageous prices back home for the same wines.

I take the sub $USD30 for you approaches a sub $USD60 market for me?

Cheers
Craig

Hi Craig,
yep, theoretically, Aussie wine should become cheaper and cheaper here as the AUD drops wrt the HKD. Theoretically
It has dropped from 8.2 in 2011-12 to currently around 5.9 (improving recently!!). I don't buy Aussie wine here, but theoretically it should have become at least 25% cheaper, but I have not seen evidence of that when browsing wine stores. Maybe Jamie has, perhaps he can chime in.
everyone knows my rants and raves about the cost of imported wine in Australia, it is totally out of proportion to the taxes, so I won't bore you with that again.
but to answer your question, I purchase very popular wines in HK.... Bordeaux and Burgundy..... and therefore the huge purchasing power of the retailers and the razor sharp competition results in my purchases being about 40-45% less than the cost in Australia, on average. So a $60 Bordeaux or Burgundy wine in Australia would cost me $35-40 in HK.
But that is on average and probably reflects the upper end of the scale, classified growths and premier and grand cru Burgundy. The real shock is in the host of marvellous satellites in Bordeaux and lesser wines of Burgundy, where the price in HK is often less than half that of Australia, a differential that totally mystifies me.
However, the differential between HK and Australia becomes much less in the following circumstances:
1. 100 point RPJ wines, ......get that 100 points, and expect the price to double!!!!!
2. Cult wines.... DRC, Rousseau, Le Pin etc. Some ridiculous prices paid in HK.
3. Less popular wines (such as, for the moment, Italy, USA and Spain, Rhone and lesser areas of France, Portugal) Less popular means less purchasing power and less competition, giving the merchant a better opportunity to rip the customer off (hmmm, as an Aussie, that sounds familiar!!!!! )

It seems we've switched from wine buying to wine economics

The above is all bad for Aussie consumers. Imports will increase in price. And if more Aussie wines are being sold overseas, prices of local wines may increase in price as we have to compete with overseas buyers. This applies especially to big names like Penfolds. No wonder they have been trying to increase prices here. The problem is that they didn't consider the price sensitivity of local buyers who are switching to the brands that are less well known overseas and thus have a greater focus on the domestic market.

The last few years has been a relative bonanza for Aussie wine buyers. Hence the number of websites with secret deals, 70% off, blackmarket steals, etc. They are probably working on new marketing strategies as we speak. I think I saw one that now says they offer a personal buying guidance service (ie we'll tell you what to buy - ouch!) Quite a change from 2/3 off 'RRP.' Now it's the turn of the producers to make some cash before another cycle of buying can occur*

The upshot of all this is that the hoarders of wine (especially foreign wine) may be feeling a tad smug over the coming few years. Many personal cellars are bursting at the seams. Something to tell your psychologist, Luke, to justify your massive spending spree - it's all been a wise investment!

BTW Felix, I think you'll find that there has never been a fixed exchange rate between the HKD and CNY. At least not in the last decade or two.....

*Assuming we are all 'rational' consumers

oh, I thought dear leader fixed the rate post 1997, but I could be wrong. Actually, I must be wrong, because I have noticed the small fluctuations!!!!!!!

Redwhiteandrose, apologies for the thread drift, but for me as a very small time punter wine has always been about two things, preference because I like the style, and QPR...aka a fair price, not being overtly ripped off.

Australia, one of the greatest countries in the world to live in, just ask anyone of the 000s of students that I work with.
But for serious wine buyers on a budget ( unfortunately that's me) we are absolutely shafted, and for the time being I will remain living here...

Auswine has given me a wealth of info to go explore other labels, smaller players, who funnily enough understand my situation that a $100 wine is not base camp.
I am trying to press the boundaries a little, trying to find wines that I can comfortably afford and fit the bill in the taste department.

All part of the journey I suppose.

Cheers
Craig.

phillisc wrote:Redwhiteandrose, apologies for the thread drift, but for me as a very small time punter wine has always been about two things, preference because I like the style, and QPR...aka a fair price, not being overtly ripped off.

Australia, one of the greatest countries in the world to live in, just ask anyone of the 000s of students that I work with.
But for serious wine buyers on a budget ( unfortunately that's me) we are absolutely shafted, and for the time being I will remain living here...

Auswine has given me a wealth of info to go explore other labels, smaller players, who funnily enough understand my situation that a $100 wine is not base camp.
I am trying to press the boundaries a little, trying to find wines that I can comfortably afford and fit the bill in the taste department.

All part of the journey I suppose.

Cheers
Craig.

So Craig I take it you'll skip this opportunity?

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/lifestyle ... 7371189150

Craig. You don't need to apologise. I was extending the drift!

I agree with everything you say. But don't think about moving overseas just to save a few dollars on wine. The cost of living is much lower in Australia than the UK, Hong Kong, etc. Think of that extra money you have to fork out occasionally on a fancy bottle of European wine as a quality of life tax (ie. a small cost to live in, maybe, the best country in the world. That's just my opinion though )

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1 * Magnum 1995 Leconfield Cabernet

6 x Kay Brothers Amery Block 6 Shiraz 2012
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redwhiteandrose wrote: But don't think about moving overseas just to save a few dollars on wine. The cost of living is much lower in Australia than the UK, Hong Kong, etc.

Think of that extra money you have to fork out occasionally on a fancy bottle of European wine as a quality of life tax (ie. a small cost to live in, maybe, the best country in the world. That's just my opinion though

About 10 years ago I worked out working a year in Hong Kong was the equivalent to working three years in Australia despite some areas of Hong Kong being incredibly expensive. Then a few other things happened like zero taxation on wine and bull runs on property, stocks and currencies where windfalls are not taxed. So I stopped working it out.

Australia is an amazing country though it comes at a price. Sometimes when I go back I experience the lifestyle where I think the price is worth it and consider repatriating. Until then I'll make hay while the sun shines and move as much foreign wine as I can home to sustain my retirement. As well buying local wines that suit my retro 80's and 90's Aussie palate.

Jamie, Each to their own. Personally, I couldn't cope with the noise, crowds, stress, terrible air pollution, etc., in Hong Kong.

Schools are very expensive. Tiny (50m2) apartments are about AUD1 Million+ even in average areas (not to mention that it's a huge bubble that Beijing can burst in the blink of an eye if the Honkies don't tow the party line.) Almost everything is expensive.

You need a pretty good job to have enough money to buy investment properties and the stock market isn't always a sure bet. There are ways of minimising tax in Oz (negative gearing, etc.,) but, the tax system is probably the main reason for moving to HK.

We all have to weigh up the pros and cons and make our choices accordingly. I'm sure you are happy with your choice or you wouldn't be there! Gan bui!

6x Head Contrarian Shiraz 2014

redwhiteandrose wrote:Jamie, Each to their own. Personally, I couldn't cope with the noise, crowds, stress, terrible air pollution, etc., in Hong Kong.

Fair enough and apologies for feeding the thread drift. It was just your comments on how expensive living abroad was yet to me it was kind of ironic. Here we are bemoaning Australian wine taxation and to be frank, how heavily taxed you are on wine ain't dissimilar to everything else. Hence my three to one calculation in getting ahead whilst living in one of the most expensive cities in the world which is an insight into how expensive Australia is.

Yes, Beijing will sustain bubbles and pop them as it sees fit- it popped the mining bubble so here's hoping with the Penfolds one too.

Jamie, Good arguments! But I'm they are true to you, but for many people, working in Hong Kong wouldn't pan out as you describe. I have friends in Hong Kong who have put their kids through school there AUD15,000 per child per year. Rent AUD40K per year. With high everyday cost and 15% tax, there's a AUD100,000 salary for a family with 2 kids gone. And that's living simply in an average area.

You obviously earn way over 100k, and/or your partner brings in a decent wage, but I'm trying to illustrate to board members that the grass isn't greener on the the hk side of the fence for all but the highest earners. And that's the financial side of things. Then there's the small matter of 'lifestyle'....

Sorry for the thread drift. Hopefully it's useful for anyone considering making the move. And no hard feelings intended. You deserve all the income and nice wine you get!

redwhiteandrose wrote:Jamie, Good arguments! But I'm they are true to you, but for many people, working in Hong Kong wouldn't pan out as you describe. I have friends in Hong Kong who have put their kids through school there AUD15,000 per child per year. Rent AUD40K per year. With high everyday cost and 15% tax, there's a AUD100,000 salary for a family with 2 kids gone. And that's living simply in an average area.

Good lord, Red & White, if I could find somewhere where I could put my kids through school at $15k pa, pay rent of 40k and only pay 15% tax, we would all move there tomorrow. With school fees in Sydney of $25-30k pa per child (I wouldn"t let them go near a Catholic school for all the money in HK), rental three bedroom apartment to accommodate say 2 children, $50kpa or a house at close to $75kpa, explain to me how anyone survives in Sydney?

Good lord? You obviously weren't the kind of person my comments were aimed at. So sorry.

In any case, the school fees are probably wrong. Probably much more. State school in my area are fine, but in Hong Kong you almost have no choice but to pay.

Sorry if my example wasn't totally accurate, but my point was that it's not easy to save lots of money if you earn under $100k (a reasonable salary for most people in Australia.) You can survive, yes, but what's the point? My other point is that even if the dollars make sense it's a really tough place to live. It only makes sense if you are making enough to save up for retirement like Jamie. That's just my opinion....

For you, Rooman, HK sounds great! It seems rather expensive in Sydney even just to live hand to mouth

rooman wrote:

redwhiteandrose wrote:Jamie, Good arguments! But I'm they are true to you, but for many people, working in Hong Kong wouldn't pan out as you describe. I have friends in Hong Kong who have put their kids through school there AUD15,000 per child per year. Rent AUD40K per year. With high everyday cost and 15% tax, there's a AUD100,000 salary for a family with 2 kids gone. And that's living simply in an average area.

Good lord, Red & White, if I could find somewhere where I could put my kids through school at $15k pa, pay rent of 40k and only pay 15% tax, we would all move there tomorrow. With school fees in Sydney of $25-30k pa per child (I wouldn"t let them go near a Catholic school for all the money in HK), rental three bedroom apartment to accommodate say 2 children, $50kpa or a house at close to $75kpa, explain to me how anyone survives in Sydney?

Maybe try somewhere else besides point piper or vaucluse

JamieBahrain wrote:

redwhiteandrose wrote:Jamie, Each to their own. Personally, I couldn't cope with the noise, crowds, stress, terrible air pollution, etc., in Hong Kong.

Fair enough and apologies for feeding the thread drift. It was just your comments on how expensive living abroad was yet to me it was kind of ironic. Here we are bemoaning Australian wine taxation and to be frank, how heavily taxed you are on wine ain't dissimilar to everything else. Hence my three to one calculation in getting ahead whilst living in one of the most expensive cities in the world which is an insight into how expensive Australia is.

Yes, Beijing will sustain bubbles and pop them as it sees fit- it popped the mining bubble so here's hoping with the Penfolds one too.

.... just got back from Beijing and I can tell you straight up. Dear Leader is in the process of popping two massive "luxury" bubbles in China
1. Golf
yep, gone from angel to devil. Banned construction of ANY further courses on the mainland, stopped those in the process of being built (including 10 half-built in and around Kunming) and will announce the transition of several existing courses into public parks. Woe is me, this includes Shenzhen Golf Club, which I overlook, and where I play. It is located in virtually the central park of Shenzhen, smack bang in the middle of the city, and is the best course in China. 19-27 go in 2016, then holes 1-18 in 2018.
2. Wine
everyone in high society here is running scared, as dear leader and his cohorts ruthlessly crack down on corruption (the main reason for the golf course closures and industry retraction.) next to cash then golf here, wine is the third most common avenue of corruption, my uncle-in-law was smart enough to bail before the crash (actually, not smart, just well-informed, if you get my drift). I am told the French wine industry as a whole has taken a huge collective gulp as the realisation their golden goose is cooked, and I would assume Pennies have also heard the terrible news by now.
the days of Chinese Billionaires purchasing millions of dollars of first growth wine are over, unless they have a very, very clean history (of which 95% do not) They are trying to keep as low a profile as possible.
are we in for a modern-day version of the cultural revolution?? Don't discount it, after a period of extraordinary growth, the Communist government has decided to pull in the reigns.

Wow, there's everything on here. World politics breaking news, global economics, lifestyles of the rich and famous .....and.....even stuff about wine purchases in May 2015!

Sorry for my part of this massive thread drift.

Felix, I hope you are using a V P N!

Love it...thanks Felix for your insightful commentary.

I like the thread drift, so will continue it a bit more apologies to all...

Yes would be great to live in HK, on a f#*king big salary, (think $500g plus), then to be able to buy squillions of stocks and shares, a property portfolio back in OZ on ZERO tax!!!!!!

Never begrudged anyone in having a great lot in life, heaven knows, I am trying to improve mine one day at a time, but being able to buy 000s of bottle a year, absolutely fantastic that you can, but the unlevel playing field living in Australia makes this pretty bloody hard....even if you are lucky enough to be on said salary.

CPI 3%, Inflation 3%, Bank interest 3% ROI/SMSF maybe 10-12%...might be time for those in the wine game to consider this...and annual RRP increases that are 3-6 times this, are frankly not on.

Agree with cost of living here, just paid the last ever installment of school fees $26g net for each child.....hooray!!, from a gross salary of not even four times that...fu*k me...how did the wife and I do it??
Still can't really complain...but planning for retirement , that's 20 years away!!

On a more important note, Andrew J, MJS and other Carlton tragics out there, just hope and pray that the Blues can be within 50 points of the Swans tonight

Some of you wags here might tell me that that will be the quarter time margin.

Cheers
Craig

redwhiteandrose wrote:Jamie, Good arguments! But I'm they are true to you, but for many people, working in Hong Kong wouldn't pan out as you describe. I have friends in Hong Kong who have put their kids through school there AUD15,000 per child per year. Rent AUD40K per year. With high everyday cost and 15% tax, there's a AUD100,000 salary for a family with 2 kids gone. And that's living simply in an average area.

You obviously earn way over 100k, and/or your partner brings in a decent wage, but I'm trying to illustrate to board members that the grass isn't greener on the the hk side of the fence for all but the highest earners. And that's the financial side of things. Then there's the small matter of 'lifestyle'....

Sorry for the thread drift. Hopefully it's useful for anyone considering making the move. And no hard feelings intended. You deserve all the income and nice wine you get!

Yes, true. When I first moved here most expats on expatriate packages where allowances are paid to cover housing and schooling. Prior to HKG, I lived in the Middle East and low and behold, I had a nice big villa provided for by my package as did everyone else otherwise, who in their right mind would leave the comfort of West? Incidentally, a school debenture can cost $70,000 Aussie for your child, and up front payment at a school which is academically pretty good compared to OZ but like much of the education in Asia, lacks the rounded balance that I'd like to see which we take for granted in Oz- sport etc .

I first noticed Australians traveling to China as English teachers an basically working for nothing. Localization took hold and many expats now come abroad without packages that support that provide decent housing, schooling and even medical. Crazy. So yes, don't come abroad without a decent expat package, it may seem like a short term adventure, but you may be paying from your savings for the experience.

Then again, I have 108 bottles of wine turning up tomorrow, I do this every six months from UK sales to have free flowing quaffers. $20 Aussie buys amazing wines, on sales, something that is full retail in Oz nearing $70.

Sorry, back to the thread…..

hahah, yep, the first thing you do here is organise your VPN. Easier said than done, a lot are total crap and slow the whole system down. But you NEVER use the internet without it!!!!!!
that said, i absolutely love living here. Shenzhen is modern and somewhat soul-less, but there is plenty of things going on, the climate is excellent, and you are 9 hours closer than Australia to the rest of the world!!! The Chinese people are very similar to Australians, believe it or not, they are warm, friendly and have a good sense of humour. It is just that they all work so dam hard!!!!
Hong Kong, my favourite city in the world, is 30 minutes away, and the charms of pristine Asian beaches and crystal clear water can be found everywhere within a 60 minute flight.

as long as SJW doesn't come in with another strange comment, I feel your pain!!! I was lucky enough to be on a large income, I am a radiologist, but once the government, health funds, GST, rich tax, car taxes blah blah etc etc etc etc took out their slice, then ouch, having three kids at Geelong Grammar was pretty bloody tough!!! Got to really admire you Phillisic!!!!
happy that most of you think Australia is the lucky country, I am not so sure. My oldest boy looks like settling down in Paris or New York, the second is a chef about to move to London, and the third will join him after he finishes uni.... to be honest, I encouraged them, if you look at the big picture, the future of Australia is pretty bleak. It is part of Asia, and there are millions upon millions of incredibly smart, hard working young people ready to move to what they see as the land of opportunity, and happy to earn one quarter of the salary their current Aussie counterparts make. I have guy I play golf with here, 29 years old, topped his MBA at Bei-da (the Chinese equivalent of Harvard, but harder to get into) who has an IQ I would guess to be in the late 150's, who does brilliant work as a COO of an IT company here, speaks perfect English, and gets paid the equivalent of $55k a year!!!!!! He would get easily ten times that in Oz.
Food for thought.

Oh, and I just purchased two magnums of Mugnier NSG Clos de la Marechale 2010, to get the thread back on topic!!!

Jamie, I've met people like that in China. They earn a pittance, hate the food, the locals, etc. Why the #### do they stay?!

Craig, I guess my 'advice' was specifically for you as you flippantly said you'd like to move to HK Oops!