What is the most egregious wine pricing you have seen?

[Matt@5453]

Well this will certainly give them and others the green light to release $1000 Shiraz's for the 2016 vintage. The best Clare Shiraz, which Penfolds would offer $50 million for to get the vineyards, is an absolute bargain at $65.
Cheers Craig

more info here: [url]https://www.wbmonline.com.au/penfolds-marks- ... ezGSbVEVhI[/url]

[George Krashos]

Price to make per bottle: $23.00. Fair markup.

[JamieBahrain]

It’s great for SA? Profitable wine industry selling premium wine to rich foreigners?

Not a wine I’ll ever buy but I do have a vested interest in successful Australian industry .

[Matt@5453]

It’s great for SA? Profitable wine industry selling premium wine to rich foreigners?

Not a wine I’ll ever buy but I do have a vested interest in successful Australian industry .

You'd be surprised, a lot will be sold domestically.
Plenty of cashed up Aussies these days.
I know the vineyard owner. Great return for them! Result of hard work & persistence.

[Jimmya]

What vineyard is it? And where do you grapes normally go?

[JamieBahrain]

It’s great for SA? Profitable wine industry selling premium wine to rich foreigners?

Not a wine I’ll ever buy but I do have a vested interest in successful Australian industry .

You'd be surprised, a lot will be sold domestically.
Plenty of cashed up Aussies these days.
I know the vineyard owner. Great return for them! Result of hard work & persistence.

Not surprised at all and even better ! All that tax revenue for government.

I have a similar story. Very wealthy vignerons whose vineyard makes an $800 bottle. 20 years ago they were going to pull the 150 year old vines for more dairy cow grazings !

Most of the wines on this thread are absurd for me and a good laugh. Yet on the other hand, as I get older, looking to retire, happy to see strong Australian industries.

[Mahmoud Ali]

What vineyard is it? And where do you grapes normally go?

An excellent question there Jimmy.

[Matt@5453]

What vineyard is it? And where do you grapes normally go?

An excellent question there Jimmy.

Pls read the article up above i posted, it has all the information you'll ever need....

[Mahmoud Ali]

As Jimmy rightly questioned, the grapes in the $1,500 special bin wine used to go into the relatively less expensive Grange 5/6 years from one vineyard and 4/10 years from another vineyard, who knows where in other years. Point made.

[Jimmya]

Yeah didnt really answer my question..unless they throw the grapes away if they arent in grange or this new wine....

[Matt@5453]

Yeah didnt really answer my question..unless they throw the grapes away if they arent in grange or this new wine....

A grape grower are you jimmy?

[Mahmoud Ali]

Yeah didnt really answer my question..unless they throw the grapes away if they arent in grange or this new wine....

Jimmy,

We discussed this very issue halfway down on page 14 of this thread where the Lehmann 'Masterton' was discussed. In that instance the grapes that usually went into the Stonewell, from a select parcel, was diverted to make the 'Masterton' and sold at a premium. I expect the same thing is going on here but because of the way Penfolds blends their wine the grapes probably features in any number of other wines when not going into the Grange.

Basically rearranging the chairs and charging for premium seating. Okay, okay, not the best of analogies.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

I think it would be better to explain how Grange is made and the grapes are bought...

My understanding (and someone please correct me where I'm wrong because I'm sure some of this isn't 100% correct) is that Penfolds has contracts with many many many growers/wineries all over the place. Each year the grapes from all of the vineyards are graded and Penfolds picks up what they want for what they want..I believe this is Penfolds option and the price is set in the contract. The grapes that aren't sold to Penfolds, the grower/winery can do what they want with the grapes...Some of them will make their own wine...some of them sell off their grapes to other wineries, etc....

This is in addition to whatever vineyards TWE owns...

So in the case of the Botanic Vineyard..where 5 out of the last 6 years some grapes have been in Grange....It means 5 out of those 6 years Penfolds purchased some amount of grapes from the owner and used that in Grange. The remaining grapes in those years or in the year where none was used from Grange, was probably made into a different wine from some other producer....

[Mahmoud Ali]

I expect contracts for the fruit are usually in place long before harvest, especially if the winery/winemaker requires some control over how the vineyard is managed, and whether the winery has long term interest in the vineyard. In the case we're talking about, the Botanic Vineyard, Penfold likely has a contract for fruit in there and if the fruit was used for the Grange in 5 out of 6 years, in the other year it likely went into another Penfold wine. I hardly think that if the vineyard owner was left scrambling to find a buyer at the last minute that they would be predisposed to going back to Penfolds.

[Polymer]

My understanding is the contracts are in place..and there is probably some sort of arrangement. But the fruit is not taken each year..we know that for a fact because many of the growers that supply fruit for Grange, will often make their own wine from that same fruit when it doesn't go into Grange...and they like to talk about how their fruit in these years went into Grange...

I don't know the exact arrangement...but I doubt any of these top vineyards are scrambling to find buyers...either they'll make their own wine from it or find another buyer for it or Penfolds will use it for another wine..but I doubt its a wash unless the vintage itself is a wash.

[Mahmoud Ali]

It's pretty difficult for a wine grower to make their own wines since they're growers and have no winemaking equipment.

I remember meeting a grower in the Barossa who was selling raffle tickets to raise funds for the local kegel facility. Kegel is a German bowling game and the Barossa has the longest kegel alley in the southern hemisphere. He was a grape grower and he was proud that grapes from his vineyard sometimes made it into the Black Pepper Shiraz. He had a contract with the Barossa cooperative and did not make any wines of his own. I'm tempted to say his name was Schultz but that would only be a guess. Nice man. I bought a raffle ticket and managed to go to the kegel lane to play the game.

There is more to the Barossa then wines and vines. Lovely place.

[Polymer]

It's pretty difficult for a wine grower to make their own wines since they're growers and have no winemaking equipment.

Some don't....some will....They don't need their own equipment (although what and when they can use someone else's will be limited). People share equipment, etc....

If you have high quality grapes (maybe not going towards Grange) with good terroir...You won't have a problem finding someone to buy your grapes...If the market is bad maybe....I think years ago this was a bigger challenge..but there are enough winemakers making wine not from vineyards they own where this is not an issue..

[Mahmoud Ali]

I've yet to hear about winegrowers offering a wine under their name on a casual or one-off basis but I'm prepared to learn or be informed.

[Polymer]

It isn't a one off wine..but for example, Oliver's Taranga HJ uses the fruit not sold to Penfolds for Grange...whether that is the fruit that didn't make the cut one year or just all of the fruit in one year...

We know for sure that not all of the growers/wineries that supply fruit for Grange get made into a Penfolds wine of a lesser cuvee..

[sjw_11]

It isn't a one off wine..but for example, Oliver's Taranga HJ uses the fruit not sold to Penfolds for Grange...whether that is the fruit that didn't make the cut one year or just all of the fruit in one year...

We know for sure that not all of the growers/wineries that supply fruit for Grange get made into a Penfolds wine of a lesser cuvee..

Interesting. Doesn't that make it incredibly difficult to know whether to buy the HJ? In years a lot of their fruit goes to Grange it would be a completely different wine. Do they radically revise pricing each year to reflect that or is it just a crap shoot for the punters?

Also in this whole debate I don't get it- just because Penfolds reject the fruit for Grange, wouldn't they potentially take it for Bin 389 or one of their many other blends? Surely they would contract the fruit one way or the other and just pay a "bonus" if it gets chosen for Grange??

[Polymer]

It isn't a one off wine..but for example, Oliver's Taranga HJ uses the fruit not sold to Penfolds for Grange...whether that is the fruit that didn't make the cut one year or just all of the fruit in one year...

We know for sure that not all of the growers/wineries that supply fruit for Grange get made into a Penfolds wine of a lesser cuvee..

Interesting. Doesn't that make it incredibly difficult to know whether to buy the HJ? In years a lot of their fruit goes to Grange it would be a completely different wine. Do they radically revise pricing each year to reflect that or is it just a crap shoot for the punters?

Also in this whole debate I don't get it- just because Penfolds reject the fruit for Grange, wouldn't they potentially take it for Bin 389 or one of their many other blends? Surely they would contract the fruit one way or the other and just pay a "bonus" if it gets chosen for Grange??

But they won't pay the same rate for fruit not selected for Grange and maybe the lower rates aren't worth a wineries time when they can sell it or use the fruit for something more profitable...

Plus TWE owns tons and tons of vineyards...for a majority of their relatively generic wine, they no doubt have their own fruit they can source.

As far as knowing when to buy the HJ...I suppose if you find there to be inconsistency then you'd want to try it first...But just because one year the best fruit went into Grange, that doesn't mean that year didn't have other great fruit, maybe just not Grange level fruit..and for other years where none of it went to Grange....Maybe you have small batches of really great fruit or maybe you just have great fruit again, not at Grange level but equal to the best years where you didn't have your best fruit anyways...

[sjw_11]

So the label of the HJ states the wine comes from vines planted in 1948 while the website has a cute modification to this: "the ‘old block’ Shiraz [from] 1948- form the base of this reserve Shiraz today." Hmm "form the base" only? And Polymer is saying that sometimes a lot of this fruit instead gets sold sometimes to Penfolds for Grange?

And for that you want $75 a bottle and you get a Langtons "Excellent" classification?
Something about this doesn't add up - either they are really taking the right royal mickey in a way that borders on false advertising, or Polymer perhaps you are mistaken here??

I also don't get how selling the grapes even for a Grange level price would make a better margin for the winery than selling their $75/bottle wine? Unless of course it actually improved the margin because in those years you still sell the $75/wine but the fruit in it is much cheaper. Which would be frankly scandalous.

I get that you can make the same argument when a winery introduces a new reserve wine and keeps the price of their former top wine the same... but in this case, the reserve wine is made by a 3rd party and not disclosed. So the consumer has no way of knowing this has happened.

[phillisc]

It isn't a one off wine..but for example, Oliver's Taranga HJ uses the fruit not sold to Penfolds for Grange...whether that is the fruit that didn't make the cut one year or just all of the fruit in one year...

We know for sure that not all of the growers/wineries that supply fruit for Grange get made into a Penfolds wine of a lesser cuvee..

Interesting. Doesn't that make it incredibly difficult to know whether to buy the HJ? In years a lot of their fruit goes to Grange it would be a completely different wine. Do they radically revise pricing each year to reflect that or is it just a crap shoot for the punters?

Also in this whole debate I don't get it- just because Penfolds reject the fruit for Grange, wouldn't they potentially take it for Bin 389 or one of their many other blends? Surely they would contract the fruit one way or the other and just pay a "bonus" if it gets chosen for Grange??

Sam you are absolutely right the fruit makes it way down.
I have had some good conversations over the years with a guy I went to school with, who is Pennies grower liaison...fruit goes everywhere and yes growers get financial recognition (bonus's) and acknowledgement that their fruit has been going into X wines at Penfolds for X years.

I have recounted this before but had a great laugh at the shooting match littered with expletives nearly 30 years ago, when Duvall/Douglas/Clayfield/Gordon...respectively Penfolds/Wynns/Lindemans/Rouge Homme winemakers were overheard by us all on the the other side of the wall at the Rouge Homme Cellar Door yelling I'm having these grapes for effing 707, they're not going into bloody St George or Riddoch...probably still happens now.
Cheers Craig

[Mahmoud Ali]

The Taranga website says: "HJ is picked from the very best parcels of old vine shiraz on the Taranga vineyard - it has been barrel selected and bottle aged for optimum enjoyment." Also that it is sourced from the 'Old Block' planted by HJ Oliver in 1948.

Are we expected to believe that when those grapes are superior they will then sell them to Penfolds to go into the Grange? For a proud six-generation family winery with a Langton Classification it doesn't seem likely. It is especially difficult to believe because they make an even more rarified premium wine (A$180) called M53 Shiraz:[i][b] "Released only in exceptional vintages, the M53 is a rare beast and made in tiny volumes."[/b][/i]

However, they do say that: "The vineyard doesnt just supply wine grapes to Oliver’s Taranga, but many other premium wine producers in the McLaren Vale region and beyond. Don and Corrina are both proud members of the Penfolds Grange Growers club, with certain blocks of their Shiraz contributing to Australia’s iconic wine, Penfolds Grange- some of the few that can lay this claim outside of the Barossa Valley." (my underline).

My guess is that Penfolds has recognized the quality of the vineyard and has contracted out certain parcels for purchase. In better years, for example years when Olivers make the M53, the quality may be good enough for it to go into the Grange and in others either another Penfold wine or maybe even a different winery in their stable.

By the way they also supply premium grapes to wineries like d’Arenberg, Wirra Wirra and Seppeltsfield each year. It's my two cents but I think these wineries contract the grapes and use them every year and use the fruit in different wines under their portfolio based on the quality of the harvest.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Oops, Craig posted his reply while I was composing mine.

[phillisc]

Mahmoud, forgot about the M53, sold in three packs.

Again when up to scratch fruit goes to Grange, goes to both?? as there are years when both are made, but who knows the exact composition and if I am honest, not really bothered as I don't buy either.
Anyway interesting discussion

If I am back to focus on this thread, the Mount Mary JMMW?? at $650, worth 5 Quintets?? ummm??

Cheers craig.

[Polymer]

So the label of the HJ states the wine comes from vines planted in 1948 while the website has a cute modification to this: "the ‘old block’ Shiraz [from] 1948- form the base of this reserve Shiraz today." Hmm "form the base" only? And Polymer is saying that sometimes a lot of this fruit instead gets sold sometimes to Penfolds for Grange?

And for that you want $75 a bottle and you get a Langtons "Excellent" classification?
Something about this doesn't add up - either they are really taking the right royal mickey in a way that borders on false advertising, or Polymer perhaps you are mistaken here??

I also don't get how selling the grapes even for a Grange level price would make a better margin for the winery than selling their $75/bottle wine? Unless of course it actually improved the margin because in those years you still sell the $75/wine but the fruit in it is much cheaper. Which would be frankly scandalous.

I get that you can make the same argument when a winery introduces a new reserve wine and keeps the price of their former top wine the same... but in this case, the reserve wine is made by a 3rd party and not disclosed. So the consumer has no way of knowing this has happened.

Well there is the prestige plus I'm sure they're getting well compensated for Grange grapes....10-15 years ago I think they were getting 10k/ton...it wouldn't surprise me if it is now 30k/ton.

But as far as scandalous..why? Let's just say in the best years...out of those best years half of those best years you actually have Grange level fruit...Let's put a letter so it makes more sense. In half of your best years you've had a few rows or sections with A+ grapes that get selected for Grange. The rest of your grapes are A-/A grade grapes. Maybe the other best years you have some additional A+ grapes but since Penfolds didn't pick them up, maybe they're not quite A+ or maybe not enough of them (I'm just speculating) and again, your normal grapes are A-/A. In decent years, your best plots maybe are just A-/A and the rest of your grapes are B+/A-.

You're making your reserve wine each year.
Year Penfolds took grapes you had A-/A grade grapes.
Great vintage but penfolds didn't take grapes. A tad bit of A+ but mostly A-/A grade.
Decent vintage but penfolds didn't take grapes. B+/A- grapes.

What years have the best wines? The best vintages...whether Penfolds took the grapes or not.

Now, they do have some other wine..M53 which I don't know much about but I can actually see that being made from what they graded as A+ themselves but wasn't taken by Penfolds....

Either way, the grapes in their normal reserve end up being roughly the same grade of grapes which are more vintage dependent than whether Penfolds bought grapes.

Anyhow, this is what I've been told which matches what winemakers have said which matches what I've read elsewhere....of course there are details there and I'm sure much of this isn't 100% correct...so if someone else has other inside information that would be great...but I don't see a flaw in the logic behind this....

It could just be the grapes from certain sections are bought every year and Penfolds uses them all of the time..but that's not what these winemakers have said..now maybe they were just misrepresenting it to make their wines sound better....that's possible too...

[Mahmoud Ali]

A very thorough parsing Polymer, however, I think you'd agree that even though your scenario is theoretically possible it is counterintuitive.

Don't you think Olivers are not likely to allow Penfolds to take their best grapes if and when they choose, allowing their HJ and their very occasional reserve wine (only 2010 and 2014) to be made from the leftovers. For example, suppose that in a good vintage there is an amount of excellent grapes that would qualify for their M53 wines. Do you think Olivers would agree to give up on making the wine because Penfolds decided to take them. It doesn't strike me as something that Oliver would agree to.

Mahmoud.

[phillisc]

A very thorough parsing Polymer, however, I think you'd agree that even though your scenario is theoretically possible it is counterintuitive.

Don't you think Olivers are not likely to allow Penfolds to take their best grapes if and when they choose, allowing their HJ and their very occasional reserve wine (only 2010 and 2014) to be made from the leftovers. For example, suppose that in a good vintage there is an amount of excellent grapes that would qualify for their M53 wines. Do you think Olivers would agree to give up on making the wine because Penfolds decided to take them. It doesn't strike me as something that Oliver would agree to.

Mahmoud.

Absolutely Mahmoud, spot on.
Unless the conversation went like this...we know you want to make M53, and how much fruit do you have...reply, we can make x bottles from the crop to sell at X price. Response, whatever you think you will make, we will offer you double (or more) for the fruit? Cash still maybe king.

Cheers Craig

[JamieBahrain]

Hope this isn’t as boring as the above .

I was chatting to a wine friend in Piedmont about expensive Barolo and Barbaresco - which really isn’t in the league of Australia incidentally.

He was in awe of the marketing prowess of a producer who releases one of the most expensive wines in the region. He claims his secret is creating a feeding-frenzy by releasing a small number of bottles and keeping the rest dribbling onto the market . Says he gets inundated with demand . It’s great wine but the pricing silly .