The Auswine Forum

Really, if you are a serious wine lover then why delve into clean skins / hidden labels?

Rocky wrote:Really, if you are a serious wine lover then why delve into clean skins / hidden labels?

Why not?
Because you like wine does not mean you re rolling in the dough and drink Lafite every night.
Don't much care what is on the outside of the bottle, it's what's in it that I'm interested in. If I can pick up a bottle of good wine for half the price because it has no label then sign me up.

Rocky wrote:Really surprised this thread has received so much traction.

I think the reason for the interest in the subject is that almost all of us like a bargain and enjoy the hunt. The debate here is whether cleanskins/hidden wines qualify as genuine bargains. What I have learnt from this thread is that some of the these wines are genuine, as in those that are advertised as such or are received with the original labels. I would never pay good money for wines with cleanskin labels for there is no guarantee as to what they are. Therefore "rolling in the dough" has little to do with the issue.

Mahmoud.

I think there is a distinction between
- a 'blind' cleanskin with whatever unprovable claims made about it
- a 'blind' purchase with the vendor playing a 'guess the wine from the clues game'
- the original post, which talked of a no label wine, making no claims about it being a name wine on the cheap, but judging by the taste, how much you'd be prepared to pay if it ticks the boxes that appeal to you

The first two rely a lot on trust and are clearly open to disreputable behaviour, damaged stock or outright lies. The 2nd one has the advantage of a sleuthing game and that's a clever angle to entertain the buyers. The 3rd category is much more honest - "You've tasted it, what do you think? Is it worth the price?".

bdellabosca wrote:What is the most you would be willing to pay for a "hidden label" bottle, assuming:
- you are able to taste the wine and think it is amazing / the best you've ever tasted with great aging potential, etc... AND
- you know nothing about the wine (i.e. you do not know what other people think of it or what grape, country, region, vineyard or vintage) and will never find out any information?

Interesting question, bdellabosca. I've been thinking about it for a few days as I wasn't sure how to answer. I don't think I'd buy a "hidden label" bottle under those conditions at any price, no matter how good I thought the wine was.

The enjoyment I get from drinking wine comes from more than just the contents inside the bottle. What's outside the bottle matters too, i.e. the label. The label tells me either directly or indirectly about the vital statistics of the wine, the terroir and also the heritage of the wine. The personality and story behind the wine also matters. This additional information is important to me as it adds a significant amount to my enjoyment of this hobby. This doesn't mean I don't drink wines blind (that's always fun at offlines), but I always want to know what I'm drinking, eventually.

I'm not sure how much I'd pay, it would depend on my luck sleuthing.

I think it is terribly damaging to a label to be honest. I've been caught out paying big money for a new wine, happy to support, only to see it dumped for 70% less through these hidden label schemes.

I love to holiday in wine regions. The food and ambience are wonderful though I now rarely buy from cellar door. I take my own aged wines from the same region and pay corkage at restaurants or just enjoy a bottle at my place of accommodation. I'm not a cheap guy, Australia just seems to have been cruelled by amateur marketeers.

sjw_11 wrote:I once got a "Hidden Label" from Kemeny's that was the 2001 Jack Mann ... or at least I believe it was based on the use of a James Halliday review to promote it. That was $40.

In that example, I am 99% confident I know what the wine is, but it cannot be confirmed and clearly on the table it lacks the brand cachet of the label. The wine itself was truly superb, adding to my certainty of its origins. I would (and probably should have!) happily buy more at $40 and put it in the cellar. The retail price of the wine was probably around $100.

I think I would have been happy to pay $40/bottle, i.e. a 60% discount vs RRP, but not much higher given the risk that 1) it is NOT what you think it is, and hence you cannot rely on the cellaring track record of the branded wine or 2) maybe it is a slightly faulty part of the bottling run or a secondary blend that didn't make the final quality assessment or 3) maybe a set of museum stock bottles left in the sun for a while and hence sold off-brand

I think generally I would always be happy to take a punt on a single bottle of hidden label that I was reasonably convinced was a 40%+ discount to retail (if I like the wine style) but I would be much less likely to buy a dozen of such a wine and cellar it! I don't know if that position actually makes sense though!

I got a few, maybe four, of those Jack Manns (Jacks Mann? Jack Menn?) from the same place, though I think mine were 2002s and $50 each. Had one a couple of years ago and I'm reasonably sure it was what I thought it was.

sjw_11 wrote:I once got a "Hidden Label" from Kemeny's that was the 2001 Jack Mann ... or at least I believe it was based on the use of a James Halliday review to promote it. That was $40.

In that example, I am 99% confident I know what the wine is, but it cannot be confirmed and clearly on the table it lacks the brand cachet of the label. The wine itself was truly superb, adding to my certainty of its origins. I would (and probably should have!) happily buy more at $40 and put it in the cellar. The retail price of the wine was probably around $100.

I think I would have been happy to pay $40/bottle, i.e. a 60% discount vs RRP, but not much higher given the risk that 1) it is NOT what you think it is, and hence you cannot rely on the cellaring track record of the branded wine or 2) maybe it is a slightly faulty part of the bottling run or a secondary blend that didn't make the final quality assessment or 3) maybe a set of museum stock bottles left in the sun for a while and hence sold off-brand

I think generally I would always be happy to take a punt on a single bottle of hidden label that I was reasonably convinced was a 40%+ discount to retail (if I like the wine style) but I would be much less likely to buy a dozen of such a wine and cellar it! I don't know if that position actually makes sense though!

Sorry, more interesting point. My suspicion was that the hidden labels that turn up at Kemeny's are stock that's still hanging around in a winery's warehouse just before a new vintage comes in. Wineries will presumably keep a small amount of each vintage back for cellaring but if they have more than that requirement left in stock the winery needs to shift it. The interesting bit is that they can't really discount under original label - all other things being equal, why would anyone buy a 2016 vintage when the winery has the 2015 on sale for a lower price? So the hidden label is a way of dumping stock without damaging the value of the new vintage.

Anyway, I suggested this theory to a regular user who told be absolutely this is the case. So basically unless you believe any good wine should sell out it's actually a pretty good way of accessing decent wine at really low prices.

Ozzie W wrote:The enjoyment I get from drinking wine comes from more than just the contents inside the bottle. What's outside the bottle matters too, i.e. the label. The label tells me either directly or indirectly about the vital statistics of the wine, the terroir and also the heritage of the wine. The personality and story behind the wine also matters. This additional information is important to me as it adds a significant amount to my enjoyment of this hobby. This doesn't mean I don't drink wines blind (that's always fun at offlines), but I always want to know what I'm drinking, eventually.

Nicely said, my sentiments as well.

I'm reminded of a Michael Broadbent story about being served a very old wine from a winery cellar, a Rioja I think, and though the wine was impressive he was frustrated to no (edit: not "know") end in not knowing what it was.

Mahmoud.

Considering the problems Aussie wine has had with discounting over the years, I wonder why there isn't more 'pricing to vintage' a la Bordeaux, so a weaker vintage might be $35, an average one $50, a good one $60 and a lauded one $75. This might reduce some of the underlying problem.

This thread has been most interesting. It definitely seems everyone has a slightly different take on this issue, which surprised me somewhat!

Jamie and Ian have raised some good points as well... I didn't mind the Tyrrell's being discounted as I buy mine on their cellar program which is well below RRP anyway, but the pain of paying full whack and then seeing a product discounted is a real issue with these types of things. Vintage by vintage pricing would definitely help this, although again in that specific example of the Vat 8 it was not a bad vintage they were flogging.

So why discount then?? You have to ask... Heat damaged stock?? At one time I believe Tyrrell's had problems with storage, or a distributor might have... Then you get a double negative whammy: prior purchasers are p**ssed off their wine is discounted, and a new buyer gets a cr*p version of the product and thinks the winery is rubbish. Definitely a failure of marketing 101, but it might not even be the winery's fault if the stock is coming from a distributor.

I am disappointed to hear V.M. is now having problems. Before I left Aus I did regularly buy quaffers from them without any major complaints. Don't think I ever bought anything fancy though... although now I think of it, I did buy one mixed half dozen "premium" wines actually, which to be honest I haven't cracked open yet so now I am a bit nervous!! (and for the record, they weren't hidden label!, just discounted).

Ozzie W wrote:Interesting question, bdellabosca. I've been thinking about it for a few days as I wasn't sure how to answer. I don't think I'd buy a "hidden label" bottle under those conditions at any price, no matter how good I thought the wine was.

The enjoyment I get from drinking wine comes from more than just the contents inside the bottle. What's outside the bottle matters too, i.e. the label. The label tells me either directly or indirectly about the vital statistics of the wine, the terroir and also the heritage of the wine. The personality and story behind the wine also matters. This additional information is important to me as it adds a significant amount to my enjoyment of this hobby. This doesn't mean I don't drink wines blind (that's always fun at offlines), but I always want to know what I'm drinking, eventually.

I've been thinking about how to answer this without being too offensive but I'll try anyways...

I agree that knowing what the wine was is useful for learning..and we're all learning and we will all always continue to learn about wine...but more so as an aggregate than for an individual wine..the label doesn't tell you what the terroir is like..you taste it. If a wine is from the Hunter but tastes like it is from McLaren Vale, what have you learned about the terroir? Nothing really except that this specific producer made a wine that doesn't taste like it is from the Hunter. Alcohol? Does it matter what the label says? Says 12.5% but is hot like 16% still don't want to drink it...I might learn, this particular wine seems to be hot and I don't believe the label but who knows...

It is nice to know a bit about a wine...and the history..but ultimately does that matter when you're tasting a wine? A wine can have the best story but if it sucks it sucks...

And yes, the bottle you bought from a specific winery where you had a great experience, that might influence things...or if you're drinking a wine you had a bad experience from that someone brought..yeah, that might influence things..but ultimately the wine is the wine. It won't make it a great wine...it won't make it a bad wine...

If I change the label to a much more expensive wine and present you a wine...will that change your perception about the wine? It probably will..but I think most people would like to be able to say they don't want it to. Ultimately when doing a blind wine I want to know what it is for my own learning..and I would like to taste it again if possible...but call a wine how it is...

Or let me put this another way...Let's say you love a specific region...a wine, pure cleanskin, no information...you try it, you know it is from a specific region because you can taste the terroir...it has the flavors, texture, etc you're looking for in a wine...You tell yourself, I'd spend up to $75 on this wine...and it is there for $5 but without any label at all...Are you saying that you'd not buy a great wine for $5 because it lacks a label? Now pick a style or area you dislike and pick a $75 rrp bottle from there with label and it is $20. Are you saying you'd rather get the wine you dislike and pay more because it has a label? how about at $5 (ignore the fact that you could probably then sell it or give it away as a gift)? Or lets take two wines, one is Yellow tail for $10 and one is the above wine that is also $10...which one would you rather buy? Or take the next step up, some "average" $20 bottle with label vs. the cleanskin for 5 or 10..you still taking the one w/ the label even though the cleanskin is clearly superior to your palate in every way?

Or let's take Mahmouds story...That person would have loved to know what the wine was...I'm sure we all would have..we want to learn and when we have a really fantastic wine, we would like to be able to look for more of it or put an identity to it...and the better the experience the more so that becomes the case...but would that person rather have not had that fantastic experience at all? Surely NOT.

Maybe you don't mean at any price...and maybe all of the cleanskin experiences you've had have been poor where the wine is junk...Either way, we drink wine...and while the label might influence you, I find it hard to believe people WANT it to influence them..and I'll stop there as whatever I'd say next would be a bit too offensive...

Rocky wrote:Really surprised this thread has received so much traction.

Rocky, I'm not...

I am on many occasion a cheap sort of guy.
I understand that there are reputations to protect in terms of name and brand, but for example, when I can pick up exceptionally well known Coonawarra's for 50% off or more does that make me cheap...no tend to think that it just puts me in a more informed position.
Years ago it was "does your dad know the marketing manager or winemaker?" and I was fortunate to pick up Henschke, Yalumba Penfolds etc. for the price that would be offered to senior management, not some 5-10% off from the rep.

Fast forward to 2017
Now its called we have a shit load of wine to shift, no need to ask if you dad knows the manager anymore...social media has replaced all that...but there is still the issue of maintaining cash flow....so off go a few mystery pallets to a third party.

I have a good mate who owns 4-6 different labels and he looks after me well, but just as I am typing this an email comes through for one of his wines being flogged through an e-tailer cheaper than he can sell it to me...go figure?

Or perhaps this whole issue is just a reflection that hundreds and hundreds of wines in this country, in my humble opinion, are way way way overpriced and the chickens are coming home to roost.
Cheers
Craig

This is an odd question really.
It reminds me of that 'reality' show storage wars.
How much would you pay for a shipping contatiner full of god knows what?
Hoping for a Ferrari but more likely end up with some second hand shoes and the bottom half of a mannequin.

As for cleanskins I don't usually pay more than 8-10.
Always from cellar doors where they'll happily let me sample it so I know what I'm in for.
Some of my best bargain buying has been Cleanskins from local CD's.

Ozzie W wrote:
The enjoyment I get from drinking wine comes from more than just the contents inside the bottle. What's outside the bottle matters too, i.e. the label. The label tells me either directly or indirectly about the vital statistics of the wine, the terroir and also the heritage of the wine. The personality and story behind the wine also matters. This additional information is important to me as it adds a significant amount to my enjoyment of this hobby. This doesn't mean I don't drink wines blind (that's always fun at offlines), but I always want to know what I'm drinking, eventually.

I think Ozzie nailed my thoughts. Whether it is a $5/$20/$100 bottle, the enjoyment I get is drawing the connection between the nostalga of the winery, the vintage and the end product i.e. the wine. You may be able to deduce the wine from a 'hidden label' with some luck or insights but without that connection then, imho, half the experience of loving wine is taken away.

Polymer wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:Interesting question, bdellabosca. I've been thinking about it for a few days as I wasn't sure how to answer. I don't think I'd buy a "hidden label" bottle under those conditions at any price, no matter how good I thought the wine was.

The enjoyment I get from drinking wine comes from more than just the contents inside the bottle. What's outside the bottle matters too, i.e. the label. The label tells me either directly or indirectly about the vital statistics of the wine, the terroir and also the heritage of the wine. The personality and story behind the wine also matters. This additional information is important to me as it adds a significant amount to my enjoyment of this hobby. This doesn't mean I don't drink wines blind (that's always fun at offlines), but I always want to know what I'm drinking, eventually.

I've been thinking about how to answer this without being too offensive but I'll try anyways...

I agree that knowing what the wine was is useful for learning..and we're all learning and we will all always continue to learn about wine...but more so as an aggregate than for an individual wine..the label doesn't tell you what the terroir is like..you taste it. If a wine is from the Hunter but tastes like it is from McLaren Vale, what have you learned about the terroir? Nothing really except that this specific producer made a wine that doesn't taste like it is from the Hunter. Alcohol? Does it matter what the label says? Says 12.5% but is hot like 16% still don't want to drink it...I might learn, this particular wine seems to be hot and I don't believe the label but who knows...

It is nice to know a bit about a wine...and the history..but ultimately does that matter when you're tasting a wine? A wine can have the best story but if it sucks it sucks...

And yes, the bottle you bought from a specific winery where you had a great experience, that might influence things...or if you're drinking a wine you had a bad experience from that someone brought..yeah, that might influence things..but ultimately the wine is the wine. It won't make it a great wine...it won't make it a bad wine...

If I change the label to a much more expensive wine and present you a wine...will that change your perception about the wine? It probably will..but I think most people would like to be able to say they don't want it to. Ultimately when doing a blind wine I want to know what it is for my own learning..and I would like to taste it again if possible...but call a wine how it is...

Or let me put this another way...Let's say you love a specific region...a wine, pure cleanskin, no information...you try it, you know it is from a specific region because you can taste the terroir...it has the flavors, texture, etc you're looking for in a wine...You tell yourself, I'd spend up to $75 on this wine...and it is there for $5 but without any label at all...Are you saying that you'd not buy a great wine for $5 because it lacks a label? Now pick a style or area you dislike and pick a $75 rrp bottle from there with label and it is $20. Are you saying you'd rather get the wine you dislike and pay more because it has a label? how about at $5 (ignore the fact that you could probably then sell it or give it away as a gift)? Or lets take two wines, one is Yellow tail for $10 and one is the above wine that is also $10...which one would you rather buy? Or take the next step up, some "average" $20 bottle with label vs. the cleanskin for 5 or 10..you still taking the one w/ the label even though the cleanskin is clearly superior to your palate in every way?

Or let's take Mahmouds story...That person would have loved to know what the wine was...I'm sure we all would have..we want to learn and when we have a really fantastic wine, we would like to be able to look for more of it or put an identity to it...and the better the experience the more so that becomes the case...but would that person rather have not had that fantastic experience at all? Surely NOT.

Maybe you don't mean at any price...and maybe all of the cleanskin experiences you've had have been poor where the wine is junk...Either way, we drink wine...and while the label might influence you, I find it hard to believe people WANT it to influence them..and I'll stop there as whatever I'd say next would be a bit too offensive...

No offense taken whatsoever, Polymer. I'm not a label snob and if a wine tastes good to me I'll buy it... but I like to know where it's from and who makes it. I do buy cleanskins, but I like to know what I'm buying. I'd buy a known cleanskin in a heartbeat which I like over an iconic luxury label that I don't like. I buy wines, not labels... the only caveat is that I know what I'm buying.

This wine hobby of mine would be boring without the full story surrounding what I'm drinking. Wine is so much more than just a beverage to me. I love the history behind a wine. I love to know what techniques the winemaker used (or didn't use) to make a wine. I love to know where the grapes are from, what the weather was like during vintage, and so on. These other aspects is what makes and keeps this hobby interesting for me.

So sounds like you'd buy it even if you didn't know anything about it..but you'd prefer to know something about it..and that might influence how much more you'd be willing to pay. It isn't even like these things have no information...they tend to have Vintage, Area, Grape Variety...and depending on where they're being sold, alcohol %.

Polymer wrote:So sounds like you'd buy it even if you didn't know anything about it..but you'd prefer to know something about it..and that might influence how much more you'd be willing to pay. It isn't even like these things have no information...they tend to have Vintage, Area, Grape Variety...and depending on where they're being sold, alcohol %.

The OP said:

What is the most you would be willing to pay for a "hidden label" bottle, assuming:
- you are able to taste the wine and think it is amazing / the best you've ever tasted with great aging potential, etc... AND
- you know nothing about the wine (i.e. you do not know what other people think of it or what grape, country, region, vineyard or vintage) and will never find out any information?

I underlined the critical part at the end. Under those circumstances, I wouldn't buy it. My post was answering that original question and the reasons why.

However, this thread has since morphed into other scenarios such as buying known cleanskins and finding out what the wine is upon delivery. In these other scenarios, I'd certainly consider purchasing and have done so on countless occasions. But that wasn't the question asked.

Ozzie W wrote:The OP said:

What is the most you would be willing to pay for a "hidden label" bottle, assuming:
- you are able to taste the wine and think it is amazing / the best you've ever tasted with great aging potential, etc... AND
- you know nothing about the wine (i.e. you do not know what other people think of it or what grape, country, region, vineyard or vintage) and will never find out any information?

I underlined the critical part at the end. Under those circumstances, I wouldn't buy it. My post was answering that original question and the reasons why.

However, this thread has since morphed into other scenarios such as buying known cleanskins and finding out what the wine is upon delivery. In these other scenarios, I'd certainly consider purchasing and have done so on countless occasions. But that wasn't the question asked.

And I replied to that and you suggested you would buy.. then in that last post I set set a more realistic situation by saying well in reality, you do know at least something about a wine even if it lacks a label....here's what you wrote.

Ozzie W wrote:I'm not a label snob and if a wine tastes good to me I'll buy it... but I like to know where it's from and who makes it. I do buy cleanskins, but I like to know what I'm buying

So if you taste a great wine...you love it...no other information on the bottle..$5..you buying it yes/no? Basically what was in the OP but I'm setting a price threshold..previously you said you'd not pay anything...then above suggests you would..

But I honestly don't think that is true...what you've said after doesn't suggest that...

And if you'd not pay even $5 for a wine you think is fantastic because it doesn't have a label, go back to my initial reply..why? Because it doesn't give you the information you feel you need even though that might not even be accurate? If someone tells me it is all about the story...I'm calling BS...Some wineries have a nice story..some don't have any....you're still drinking, tasting and probably buying both. It isn't just about a winery visit/CD visit either even though that may influence your overall impression of a place...

I want to know about details in a wine..more than I probably should...but if I tried a wine that was exactly in my sweetspot style wise with absolutely NOTHING on the bottle and no chance of knowing anything about it and it was just $5..I'd be backing up the truck...

I'm not a label snob and if a wine tastes good to me I'll buy it... but I like to know where it's from and who makes it. I do buy cleanskins, but I like to know what I'm buying

When I wrote "but...", I meant it as mandatory requirement to make the purchase, whether it's a cleanskin, hidden label, no label, whatever. To be clear, I will not purchase a wine for any price under the OP's conditions, not even for $5. Some may consider this foolish and that's fine with me. Each to their own.

So regardless of how it tastes you wouldn't buy it...And the logic is because you don't have a label to tell you about the wine or you can't look up the winery (even though in some cases you get no information because the information is scarce) you don't get sufficient enjoyment out of just the wine itself..or at least not enough to put your dollars behind it...

Polymer wrote:So regardless of how it tastes you wouldn't buy it...And the logic is because you don't have a label to tell you about the wine or you can't look up the winery (even though in some cases you get no information because the information is scarce) you don't get sufficient enjoyment out of just the wine itself..or at least not enough to put your dollars behind it...

That's pretty much it. Not saying that I wouldn't enjoy just the wine itself in the absence of other information... a good wine is a good wine. But I want more. So I'll put my money where I can get it.

This discussion just reminded me of a quote by Madeline Puckette which is quite fitting - wine without history is just booze.

Ozzie W wrote:That's pretty much it. Not saying that I wouldn't enjoy just the wine itself in the absence of other information... a good wine is a good wine. But I want more. So I'll put my money where I can get it.

But you can...right in front of you is 10 cases of the wine you just thought was amazing...

You want more later? And yet that prevents you from buying more on the spot? Nothing to say you can even find a specific wine with a label later...or maybe you can but for a lot more...but really, how does that impact your decision to buy the wine right then and there? Is it the fear the rest of it is something else?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand it a bit..

Heck, if the wine was decent enough to drink I'd at least pick up some for cooking wine...

Assuming I was so confident (in truth I rarely am), then there is a lot to be said for trusting our palate rather than 'buying the label.

One downside though, if the original label is never revealed, then there is no opportunity to follow that winery and that wine.

Polymer wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:That's pretty much it. Not saying that I wouldn't enjoy just the wine itself in the absence of other information... a good wine is a good wine. But I want more. So I'll put my money where I can get it.

But you can...right in front of you is 10 cases of the wine you just thought was amazing...

You want more later? And yet that prevents you from buying more on the spot?

You've misinterpreted what I wrote. I don't want more of that wine now or later. I want more of an experience, which I can't get without knowing anything about the wine.

Polymer wrote:Nothing to say you can even find a specific wine with a label later...or maybe you can but for a lot more...

That's often the case. Wines sell out, especially really good ones. But once I discover something new that I like, I can take steps to ensure I can procure at subsequent vintages. I can seek out wines from other producers that make a similar wine.

As an example, the first time I had a wine from Mt Etna, I loved the style and wanted to explore the region more. I read up about the history, the terroir, the producers, their different approaches, etc. It was fascinating. I then started cellaring Mt Etna wines from various producers. If I'd been in the position that the OP presented with my first Etna wine (but not knowing it's an Etna wine), I could have bought more bottles right then and there, but that would be it. I wouldn't be able to start let alone continue my Mt Etna journey.

Polymer wrote:but really, how does that impact your decision to buy the wine right then and there? Is it the fear the rest of it is something else?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand it a bit..

No fear of the rest being something else. Just the same reasons I've already outlined. There's no logic in my approach to wine. I approach this hobby with a certain mindset whereby I like to (eventually) know what I'm drinking. That's the path I choose to take on this wine journey. There's so much wine out there I want to try/buy, so if presented with the OP's scenario, I'd just move onto the next wine. I'm not after a "one-hit wonder".