The Auswine Forum

ufo wrote:Oldest Screw cap red I drank is Marius 2002 Shiraz, it is drinking just beautiful now in absolute balance & harmony and still has long way to go.
I have some Moss Wood CS 2001 under SC, haven't tried it yet but I am 100 % confident that it is developing gracefully.
Also got a case of 2002 Kay Bros Old Block 6 shiraz under SC and had been told buy Colin Kay (Owner/wine maker) not to touch it until 2025.

So the Block 6 now needs 25 years to be approachable! Wow they used to drink well after 5+ years. Something sounds awry there in relation to the closure?

I don't have the 100% confidence in screw cap you do and I've bought full Wendouree allocations for 25 years and I'm nervous. Yes, 7% of Wendouree wines were adversely affected by cork but there was no real trial done on this idiosyncratic style. Perhaps my great grand kids will enjoy these wines decades from now; double decanted of course.

LGW wrote:

tunetown wrote:If there are any generous members who can spare a bottle or two I would be most appreciative. As an ever evolving wine nut, the Wendouree is my final frontier.

Where abouts do you live?

Hi Lawrie,
I'm in Camden NSW. It's south West of Sydney. I have updated my profile.

I have been told mine has arrived (does a little hop, skip and jump) now just to cross my fingers for an allocation. Is there any recommendations or pointers for first timers to get some? I already know to not go straight Shiraz only but I'm keen to try all of them anyway.

Thanks

JamieBahrain wrote:

ufo wrote:Oldest Screw cap red I drank is Marius 2002 Shiraz, it is drinking just beautiful now in absolute balance & harmony and still has long way to go.
I have some Moss Wood CS 2001 under SC, haven't tried it yet but I am 100 % confident that it is developing gracefully.
Also got a case of 2002 Kay Bros Old Block 6 shiraz under SC and had been told buy Colin Kay (Owner/wine maker) not to touch it until 2025.

So the Block 6 now needs 25 years to be approachable! Wow they used to drink well after 5+ years. Something sounds awry there in relation to the closure?

I don't have the 100% confidence in screw cap you do and I've bought full Wendouree allocations for 25 years and I'm nervous. Yes, 7% of Wendouree wines were adversely affected by cork but there was no real trial done on this idiosyncratic style. Perhaps my great grand kids will enjoy these wines decades from now; double decanted of course.

Jamie good to see you posting here at Gav's place.
Very impressive that you have been in the position to purchase a full allocation for 25 years. I have had to exercise a little fiscal restraint and over 25+ plus years have usually ordered a 1/4 to 1/2 allocation. 600+ bottles of Wendouree is getting to the point of whether my two lads want to carry on the order...something we are now talking about.

By my reckoning notwithstanding imposed limits of recent years and that not all of the blends are released each year, plus 2 or 3 vintages of Pressings being released, a quarter century full allocation is looking at 100-125 dozen, of which 80% would be under cork.

I appreciate that your palate has changed significantly and you have enormous access to a whole lot more wine at far far cheaper prices than us who reside in Adelaide.
However, with the volume of Wendouree in your possession, there is not really a problem here.
The late 80s and early 90s vintages are coming into their own, about 10 years ago there was a change in style and 5 years ago Screw-caps were introduced.
I tried all the 2012s bar the malbec in May this year and they are indeed impressive.

I am looking forward to 25 year shiraz and cabernet sauvignon verticals that look at wines that have mellowed gracefully complimented by those with a more expressive fruit profile.

Each to their own with old wines under cork, but don't think there is too much wrong here.
Cheers
Craig.

Ditto, if anyone in Canberra can spare a few bottles of anything in their allocation then please PM me.

Many thanks, Travis.

Mailer has arrived! Now the big question, what to ask for (and what will I actually get?!)

I think I am going to ask for 4 of everything except the muscat, assume I will miss out on some and hopefully end up with a mixed dozen or so.

maybs wrote:Mailer has arrived! Now the big question, what to ask for (and what will I actually get?!)

I think I am going to ask for 4 of everything except the muscat, assume I will miss out on some and hopefully end up with a mixed dozen or so.

+1. For those who have tasted the muscat, do you think it is worth ordering?

I received it today too.

JamieBahrain wrote:

ufo wrote:Oldest Screw cap red I drank is Marius 2002 Shiraz, it is drinking just beautiful now in absolute balance & harmony and still has long way to go.
I have some Moss Wood CS 2001 under SC, haven't tried it yet but I am 100 % confident that it is developing gracefully.
Also got a case of 2002 Kay Bros Old Block 6 shiraz under SC and had been told buy Colin Kay (Owner/wine maker) not to touch it until 2025.

So the Block 6 now needs 25 years to be approachable! Wow they used to drink well after 5+ years. Something sounds awry there in relation to the closure

My (limited) experience with aged screwcaps is that they do develop nicely in the bottle. I think the development is a bit slower, but not glacial compared to the same wine under cork. The big difference is that screwcaps are intended to put to the sword the old saying that there are no great old wines, only great old bottles. The screwcap does away with the variability of cork to a very large extent (I've had the rare dodgy screwcap) so that those bottles that begin to be affected by flaws in the cork (apart from TCA) get more and more affected as time goes on. Premature oxidation is probably the biggest example of what I mean.

Of course, you may get a wine that has been made magical over the decades due to the vagaries of the particular properties of the particular piece of tree bark used as a stopper. But few of us can afford to hold out for the diamond to shine through the dross and the semi-precious stones. I would rather drink six outstanding wines out of a six-pack than have one sink-job, two ordinary, two very good and one truly exceptional wine.

As for the prediction re the Block 6, it is hard to understand how Colin Kay would know how slowly his wine will age under screwcap. I accept he is the maker, but unless he has already done the experiment in cellaring wine of that standard for 20 years, it may be nothing more than a bit of hyperbole (I don't know Mr Kay, so this is pure speculation on my part, rather than an accusation).

I've had the Shiraz Mataro and the Cab Malbec from the 2011 Wendourees and these were fabulous drinking wines, to my taste, from the get-go. That, of course, is a function of the grapes and vintage, but clearly there was no retardation by the screwcaps in those cases.

I'm just thinking that there might be a confusion between longevity and pace of development. A wine can develop reasonably under screwcap, but hold its level of maximum pleasure for longer. I expect that the quality of the grapes, the cleanliness of the winemaking, the skill of the bottling and the cellaring conditions will have a much, much greater impact on how even Wendourees develop than the choice of screwcap vs non-faulty cork.

I definitely think Jaime's concern is reasonable. Even for other wines, no one is sure how they'll age under screwcap..I'm pretty sure they'll all be fine. I'm also pretty sure they'll develop slower than under cork...It certainly won't be faster. How slow? Who knows...For some styles it might not make any difference..for others it might be a huge difference.

Specifically with Wendouree (not the more recent ones), you had wines that were a bit backwards on release and not very approachable for 15-20 years..what does that mean under screwcap? Is that now 30+ years? 40+ years? I think the more approachable Wendourees made screwcap less of a concern...but if they do have a more old school Wendouree under screwcap..who knows what that'll do. Will it age so slowly it'll never be approachable to most? How long will it be before it makes that turn into something really special? I've had some 20+ year old Wendourees that still haven't evolved into that...

That said..I'm fine with screwcap..I have faith it age properly and won't be that much slower than cork..but more consistent and I don't have to worry about TCA (not really anyways). At the same time, I'd hate to wait 30 years and see that they're still another 10+ before they get really special...

I'm just glad I am starting this collection of Wendouree now at 34. Means I may get to drink some of them at their peak before I die

That being said, would have been good to start 10 years ago. Note to mid 20's self. Don't be so stupid.

On the screw cap think, I am no expert at all, but I have been noting with interest in recent times the number of Hunter Semillons from the mid 2000 era which are under screw and which people are saying have barely started to evolve at all, even with some of the lower end bargain versions. Don't know if this is a product of the vintage, the making, the grape variety or the screw, but when even 8 and 9 year old semillons taste like 2 year olds it does make you wonder.

I've had plenty of Hunter sems and shiraz under screwcap, and I think there are some misconceptions about the way they are developing. The lack of slow oxidation means that the colour isn't developing nearly as fast, but I think the secondary characters are still coming along. I had a 99 HVD Semillon under screwcap the other night, and it was AMAZING - retained so much of the freshness from the early days, and to me it has increased the harmony. I think the wines will live a lot longer, but I also think they are developing at a much more natural pace, not at the whim of the pliability of the cork.

You can all breathe easy now, my mailer arrived today

Could have spent another 3 days down the coast !

dan_smee wrote:I've had plenty of Hunter sems and shiraz under screwcap, and I think there are some misconceptions about the way they are developing. The lack of slow oxidation means that the colour isn't developing nearly as fast, but I think the secondary characters are still coming along. I had a 99 HVD Semillon under screwcap the other night, and it was AMAZING - retained so much of the freshness from the early days, and to me it has increased the harmony. I think the wines will live a lot longer, but I also think they are developing at a much more natural pace, not at the whim of the pliability of the cork.

My experience too - and with the same HVD. When we talk about evolving, this is just getting to a different stage. All of the older Vat 1s I have had under screwcap have been fantastic; the ones under cork all over the place. But the best Vat 1 under cork has not been better than the best under screwcap, even if more developed.

Nobody at all knows how the Wendourees will age under screw cap, not even Tony ( I know 'cause I had a chat with him at the winery). The reason they went for screw cap was due the appalling performance of cork with a 7% failure rate on winery stock! So the move to screw cap was generated due this high failure rate and not based on any trials. I've tried a few 2011's too; without the essential use of the decanter or slow-ox they were a little bistro like for mine.

Anyways there's no evidence above that allays my nervousness with this closure and Wendouree wines.

Every year, the Wendouree thread springs up and people are very keen to get on the list. What about auction prices? A few years back you could buy these wines for just a small premium above cellar door price and they had a few years on them.

Great fun wines. Open one on a Sunday and drink through the week. It's fascinating to watch the slow-oxygenation open up the wine whereas a decanter doesn't always to the job to effect- same with great Italian nebbiolo.

qwertt wrote:My experience too - and with the same HVD. When we talk about evolving, this is just getting to a different stage. All of the older Vat 1s I have had under screwcap have been fantastic; the ones under cork all over the place. But the best Vat 1 under cork has not been better than the best under screwcap, even if more developed.

Which Vat 1s were they?

The ones I've had 2004 onward...Just didn't compare to something like the 98 or 99....Huge gap from those two and everything under screwcap I've had so far.

That doesn't mean some of the VAT1s under screwcap won't be just as good later or even better...In fact, I'm hoping that is the case...but I haven't seen that yet...

Just putting together my order, anybody tried the Muscat??

Polymer wrote:

qwertt wrote:My experience too - and with the same HVD. When we talk about evolving, this is just getting to a different stage. All of the older Vat 1s I have had under screwcap have been fantastic; the ones under cork all over the place. But the best Vat 1 under cork has not been better than the best under screwcap, even if more developed.

Which Vat 1s were they?

The ones I've had 2004 onward...Just didn't compare to something like the 98 or 99....Huge gap from those two and everything under screwcap I've had so far.

That doesn't mean some of the VAT1s under screwcap won't be just as good later or even better...In fact, I'm hoping that is the case...but I haven't seen that yet...

Hmm. Your query sent me to my records and I have to apologise. I have only had the 05 under screwcap (earlier this year) and my note said: 21/3/14 - Still very fresh and primary. A long way to go under screwcap.

2001 is the oldest Vat 1 I have (and the only one I bought a dozen of) and they have been all over the place. The two 03s I've had under cork have both been excellent - and maybe I was thinking they were under screwcap, when in fact they were not.

Thumbs up still for the late-bottled HVD under screwcap.

I

Blesso wrote:Just putting together my order, anybody tried the Muscat??

Blesso,

Muscat of Alexandria certainly worth getting.
I had a 94 at Christmas....absolutely brilliant.
Have a half dozen vintages spread over the last 20 years.

You will not be disappointed...great wine to have with desserts.

Cheers
Craig.

So to get the best out of the celebrated 2012 vintage Wendouree Shiraz (under screw cap) I should drink when?
Sounds like they are going to need eons before they are showing their true characters.
Coupled with the fact that the Wendourees I've had under cork were quite tannic to start with,
I'm wondering on a time line for the most recent screw cap editions?

Sounds like I might have to invest in a DeLorean with a Flux capacitor....

Speaking of Wendouree's ...couple weeks ago I was in Melbourne, went to a friend's local DM's to grab some beers had a quick look in the wine section, couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the 2010 Wendouree Shiraz displayed in poor conditions selling for $229.99 a pop.

WTF?

Someone is making a mint in the secondary market.

Yes, a mate in HKG who runs a wine business on the side has just flogged this lot off for $200AUD per bottle in a "tax free market" . Divide by 7 for $AUD…..they all went across the border to Red China to mix with red bull.


Wendouree Shiraz


- this is another Australian Cult wine, located in Clare valley in South Australia with vines aging back to the late 19th Century. Even if you are on the exclusive list to buy some each year the maximum allocation is 6 bottles per person! With a tiny production and massive demand getting hold of these wines is near but impossible. I have secured a small collection from a reluctant seller in Australia that has been stored properly since purchase. The following are now here in HK...be quick as I don't think these will last long! All of these are available @$1488/btl

if there is someone quick enough they can take all for $38K - more than 10% discount and the collection stays intact.
2001 x 1
2002 x 4
2003 x 6
2004 x 4
2005 x 1
2006 x 3
2008 x 6
2009 x 4

maybs wrote:I'm just glad I am starting this collection of Wendouree now at 34. Means I may get to drink some of them at their peak before I die

That being said, would have been good to start 10 years ago. Note to mid 20's self. Don't be so stupid.

When's the best time to plant a tree? 20 years ago. Second best time? Today.

Guess we'll all have to wait and see if Wendourees under screwcap will grow quicker than an oak tree.

Received my form yesterday and will send off today asking for a bit of everything. Then the wait begins.

This is my second year on the mailing list and my experience with Wendouree wines is unfortunately limited. These wines have a well established history of longevity with a reputation of not being approachable until after a couple of decades in the cellar. Now it seems that the wines can now been enjoyed on release.

Does anybody know why this has happened? Is it a change in the way the wines are made or is perhaps a reflection of climate change?

I also wonder if this early approachability may mean they may not a long life as they once did. If so, I am glad that they are screwcap.

Blesso wrote:Just putting together my order, anybody tried the Muscat??

Buy one to try but don't go long on them. I personally think they are not good at all.

Silly question I'm sure, but do you return all 3 pages or just the last page order form?
Thanks

vovo wrote:Silly question I'm sure, but do you return all 3 pages or just the last page order form?
Thanks

The only information of interest to them I think is your input on the order form. They already know what's on the other two pages because they wrote them. At least I hope that's the case because I only returned the order form

Polymer wrote:

qwertt wrote:My experience too - and with the same HVD. When we talk about evolving, this is just getting to a different stage. All of the older Vat 1s I have had under screwcap have been fantastic; the ones under cork all over the place. But the best Vat 1 under cork has not been better than the best under screwcap, even if more developed.

Which Vat 1s were they?

The ones I've had 2004 onward...Just didn't compare to something like the 98 or 99....Huge gap from those two and everything under screwcap I've had so far.

That doesn't mean some of the VAT1s under screwcap won't be just as good later or even better...In fact, I'm hoping that is the case...but I haven't seen that yet...

The 04 Vat 1 is a wine that I have not found elsewhere.
I have Vat 1 back to the cork sealed 99.
The 04 is a crazy wine, I still have 11 bottles. It has not shifted.
Its still like it was bottled yesterday. With a perfect cork, it would probably be the same.
I am drinking the 05s (which are amazing)

qwertt wrote:The only information of interest to them I think is your input on the order form. They already know what's on the other two pages because they wrote them. At least I hope that's the case because I only returned the order form

Well I only included the last page too, so we're in it together.

Hi all,

I have also received the mail (Sydney) on Thursday 10/7, but picked up the mail at evening after work, so there's no difference between posting the mail on Friday or on Sunday. I am still pondering what to order as I attempting to order 30 bottles (5 six bottle cases).

I am definitely trying to order 6 of each of the Shiraz and Cab, but I am not sure how should I distribute the 18 bottle quota to the other 4 reds (Cab/Mal, Sh/Mat,Sh/Mal, and Mal). At this stage I am not considering the Muscat because I don't want to waste the quota and delivery charge on a lesser value bottle, I would turn to independent retailers for those Muscats as they would probably charge around $35-$40/btl anyway. Or better still, if any fellow members from this forum could spare me a couple of bottles of Muscats, that would be sweet!

Can anyone please advise what are you planning to order?

Thanks
Michael