The Auswine Forum

Tyson wrote:I always score wines as I see them, not to appease their makers. Even just this week I've been in the bad books of one maker (one that I know about!) upset about low scores. But I'm not answerable to winemakers, only to my readers.

So does this make the 2008 one of the best Granges you've ever had? Which vintages did you give 100 to?

Tyson wrote:Hi Craig,

Thanks for your response.

I always score wines as I see them, not to appease their makers. Even just this week I've been in the bad books of one maker (one that I know about!) upset about low scores. But I'm not answerable to winemakers, only to my readers.

Your question about these wines being cheaper overseas than in Australia has bothered me as well, to the point where I conducted some reasearch of my own in an attempt to get to the bottom of this saga two years ago. The results are revealing.

I published my findings in one of the early editions of my Wine Taste Weekly newsletter, which you can read here: http://tysonstelzer.com/content/WineTaste13.pdf. Scroll to page 3, "Why 2006 Grange costs $155 more in Australia than overseas." The results are based on a survey of the street price of Grange across thirty retailers in six countries, but similar maths works for any other wine in the range.

Cheers,

Tyson.

Thanks for taking the time to post Tyson - it always takes guts when one is the recipient of criticism. Well done !


PS - hope your trip to Champagne went well. It seems I visited many of the houses in Avize a few days before you did - Aussies are quite the novelty in those parts....

Tomorrow they are available. Look forward to a few of the online punters notes from the multitude of tastings accross the weekend.

Philip White's impressions (minus the Cabernets) to add to the mix - he doesn't seem impressed by the Bin 28 at all:

http://drinkster.blogspot.com/2013/03/p ... iewed.html

Iain, whilst Whitey and I have locked horns over the years I accept his very balanced view.

As was stated on this forum recently "I work for Penfolds and I love my job", well clearly there must be dozens on the Penfolds payroll if the spew and bile proferred by the large chains is anything to go buy...looks like a love in straight out of the pages of the Karma Sutra, with the obligatory case or three "off the back of a truck".
Thankfully we do not have a host here who is so gushy.

Don't quite get it when the wine maker suggests 389 is 10 years "late". 02, 04, 06, 08 and 09 must have been rubbish then?

Pleased to see that Whitey is suggesting, acid, sap and dare I say thin and slightly green just as I said about the 09 last year and was roundly criticised for doing so.
Will reserve final judgement after tasting
Pity the 28 looks as if its a one demesional fruit bomb...but gladdened that St Henri and Magill look true to the style.
Whilst low to mid 50's at the chains may look encouraging...have to wonder how I get email offers of 389 and St Henri that are 10+ years old for only $10 more then the current release.
And TWE can only offer a 6c dividend to their shareholders!!!!!!!!

Mike from NYC, can you give us a price update please....may be cheaper to fly to the US.

Craig.

I'm in London at moment - approx 6 pack pricing in bond Bin 28 £65, Bin 150 $150, 389 £170 from what I'm hearing. Haven't found any retailers in NY willing to take Penfolds any more !!!

Gavin, if this is a breach of policy, please delete (and accept my apologies)

Mike

Mike Hawkins wrote:I'm in London at moment - approx 6 pack pricing in bond Bin 28 £65, Bin 150 $150, 389 £170 from what I'm hearing. Haven't found any retailers in NY willing to take Penfolds any more !!!

Gavin, if this is a breach of policy, please delete (and accept my apologies)

Mike

Cheers for this Mike and to you Gavin.
I have absolutely no intention of mentioning price at a local level to undercut or embarrass Gavin or anyone here who wishes to purchase in Adelaide.

What I am interested in and seems to be supported by Tyson is that 65 Quid is a neat $100, why can this price not be offered to the domestic market for Bin 28??
That would make it $16 pb not 28.
Stop lying behind the pathetic excuse, that OS it won't sell if the price is too high and learn a few simple lessons that it wont sell here if the price is too high, yet Australians continue to get gouged beyond belief.

Probably the sole reason for the way that I feel about this company. Your second comment about your home town reinforces my sentiment...why would they!!
Craig.

Sadly, there are so few Aussie wines to be found anywhere in NY - not limited to Pennies. The very best restaurants (2 and 3 Michelin star) don't have any on their wine lists either - not Grange, not HOG, nothing. It is going to take a massive change of heart for east-coast Americans to even try Aussie wines again, let alone buy them.

phillisc wrote:Waiting eagerly for your thoughts Iain and whether the Kalimna club has been disbanded

Still has a pulse... barely one though.

Looked on the club website calendar last month to see if there's any events around the coming releases - nothing.

Got an email this week spruking the new Bins, and suggesting members pre-order the Icon wines due to overseas demand - at this stage there's no intention of staging any club events until September, well after they want us to buy this stuff on trust.

Cheers,
Ian

n4sir wrote:

phillisc wrote:Waiting eagerly for your thoughts Iain and whether the Kalimna club has been disbanded

Still has a pulse... barely one though.

Looked on the club website calendar last month to see if there's any events around the coming releases - nothing.

Got an email this week spruking the new Bins, and suggesting members pre-order the Icon wines due to overseas demand - at this stage there's no intention of staging any club events until September, well after they want us to buy this stuff on trust.

Cheers,
Ian

Beautiful
You would expect nothing less from this mob Ian.
Prehaps it could be a theme for an offline. We all buy a current release, serve it blind and really do a proper analysis.

ps. not expecting anything from the JR club either
Craig.

phillisc wrote:
Beautiful
You would expect nothing less from this mob Ian.
Prehaps it could be a theme for an offline. We all buy a current release, serve it blind and really do a proper analysis.

ps. not expecting anything from the JR club either
Craig.

Speaking of which, any chance will you make your first offline appearance this month?

Can you imagine a winery owner upset by low scores from James Halliday?

daz wrote:Can you imagine a winery owner upset by low scores from James Halliday?

I can do more than just imagine it - I know one Winemaker who was so upset with Halliday (or one of his writing partners) reviews that he absolutely refused to have them assess/list his wines for a number of years. I'm sure he's not the only one either.

Cheers,
Ian

n4sir wrote:

daz wrote:Can you imagine a winery owner upset by low scores from James Halliday?

I can do more than just imagine it - I know one Winemaker who was so upset with Halliday (or one of his writing partners) reviews that he absolutely refused to have them assess/list his wines for a number of years. I'm sure he's not the only one either.

Cheers,
Ian

I was at a Jeremy Oliver shindig a couple of years back and he said he was having the same problem. He got in a bit of trouble from Penfolds years ago for daring to suggest that the 2000 Grange shouldn't be released. I guess it means "do we trust the critics or are they just sellouts?" The scores that some average wines (in my opinion) are getting, is starting to get beyond a joke. The pressure on them from the big companies must be quite ridiculous. So much advertising now incorporates leading critics scores of the wine. When I first started reading and buying Halliday's books a 94 was a really good score. Now 94 just seems run of the mill.

Cheers
Ian

ticklenow1 wrote:

n4sir wrote:

daz wrote:Can you imagine a winery owner upset by low scores from James Halliday?

I can do more than just imagine it - I know one Winemaker who was so upset with Halliday (or one of his writing partners) reviews that he absolutely refused to have them assess/list his wines for a number of years. I'm sure he's not the only one either.

Cheers,
Ian

I was at a Jeremy Oliver shindig a couple of years back and he said he was having the same problem. He got in a bit of trouble from Penfolds years ago for daring to suggest that the 2000 Grange shouldn't be released. I guess it means "do we trust the critics or are they just sellouts?" The scores that some average wines (in my opinion) are getting, is starting to get beyond a joke. The pressure on them from the big companies must be quite ridiculous. So much advertising now incorporates leading critics scores of the wine. When I first started reading and buying Halliday's books a 94 was a really good score. Now 94 just seems run of the mill.

Cheers
Ian

Ian times two, heartily agree with you both and thank you Ian re the Grange reference, posted eslewhere but yes I remember now, 2000 Grange "should have never been made" or someting like it.
Hope Tyson stays true and is not pressured to fall into line

What ever next...bloggers like our good selves not being critical...who me..never

Cheers Craig.

n4sir wrote:I can do more than just imagine it - I know one Winemaker who was so upset with Halliday (or one of his writing partners) reviews that he absolutely refused to have them assess/list his wines for a number of years. I'm sure he's not the only one either.

Lakes Folly? He never seems to review any of their wines.

A couple of observations:
1.RRP and actual price for Penfolds tends to differ. 389 2010 can be had for circa $xx pb, which brings it back into QPR contention in such a good vintage. As does $xx for Bin 28.
2. Bin 389 at auction often does sell below release price but unlikely that 2010 will drop much below release discounts $xx IMHO see 96 & 98 vintage history (mind you these were cheap on release). lesser or average vintages tend to sell below.
3. Bin 389 whilst not unique is a very good example of the style, is very reliable and you know what you get in ten years time. It is a wine to put down. Not many failures over the vintages of 389.
4. yes there are some good wines available in 389 price range but most tend to be straight cabs or shiraz that do not quite have the cellering potential, ie 2010 389 will go 20+ years Turkey Flat probablly best after 10-15. Some of the other bigger shiraz don't go the distance ( in my book anyway, but this is personal taste).

So all in all I think Penfolds still offer something, they do have interesting wines if cellered for 10+ years. would I like them to be cheaper, no doubt. I used to buy these by the bucket load and still drinking many older vintages. Are they all I have in my celler, by no means so.

Edit: prices removed

One thing I don't get is the price gouging in good years. Winemakers all the time talk about the need to increase prices in difficult years due to reduced crop, more sorting / work with hands in vineyard, and to me that is understandable. It is an agricultural business, and they have to cover costs. It seems now though, that TWE use the opposite for gouging - it was a great year, lots of crop, good quality, let's jack up the price because of demand. It makes you sick to think that prices rise at 10 x inflation in good years, when they are covering their costs better than the previous year anyway! Wait until we get a terrible year, it will go up further, and we will be asked to swallow it because they need to cover costs. I stick a big middle finger up to you TWE. Tyrrell's reduced the cost of their Vat reds from 2010 to 2011 because of yields.

The one thing that was good last year, especially in Canberra was the Grange price-match war with Costco, Dan Murphy's and First Choice / Vintage. Good because all of their margins were chipped away until I think it was being sold at 450 a bottle on the first weekend (a nice discount from 625rrp). What is it this year, 685rrp? That's a whole bottle of Bin 389 (already overpriced) difference. I'm sure it is good, but 685? You could get a bottle of perfectly cellared 1982 Grange for that from a retail store in Canberra, and still have enough left to buy a 2010 Clonakilla Shiraz Viognier.

dan_smee wrote:What is it this year, 685rrp?

After the 100 point score from Wine Advocate they decided to bump it up another $100 dollars at the last second to make the new release price now AUD$785 RRP - what else can you say, just about the perfect example of price gouging the local market:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13118

Cheers,
Ian

$800+ in NZ I have found. One retailer I spoke to yesterday described it as a "false market" with older vintages of Grange available at auction for half that.

Let Penfolds execs sit in their boardroom and toss off to their genius. I will never buy another Penfolds wine, and I will never write another one up no matter how good on this forum

Supply and demand going on here.
I suppose if I made it, and punters in one area of the world will pay more then another, I would ship them all of it.
The prices are silly, and not worth worrying about, I think.
I did buy some 2010 389 and Marananga, but the last Grange I bought was 1990.
I dont care, plenty of other stuff to drink.

20 years ago, Penfolds was one of the major wine brands, and we all bought heaps of it. It was THE wine brand.
Now, they dont get all the good fruit, and I try hard to find wines from small guys that are good value, not like 707 and Grange etc.

You know what though, despite all this, I would probably buy the 2010 Penfolds premiums (Grange, 707, RWT, St Henri) as they are my daughter's birth year. The question though, is do I buy it at release, or wait several years later, and get it on the secondary market?

monghead wrote:You know what though, despite all this, I would probably buy the 2010 Penfolds premiums (Grange, 707, RWT, St Henri) as they are my daughter's birth year. The question though, is do I buy it at release, or wait several years later, and get it on the secondary market?

Based on current RRP and the spin about 2010 389, I would think that a 4 pack of the above would be in the order of $1600-1800+. A grand for Grange...can see the spin now..."The 2010 Grange is a Grand release" 400-500 for 707 and probably no change out of 400-500 for the last two.

I would need to win lotto. You never know with the Grange...but the other three would be second hand buys IMHO.

Cheers Craig.