without starting a feud, is there any reason why Parker always grades Australian whites so low and why he thinks that our whites won't go the distance. I mean we have whites that are holding up after decades yet he still seems to abuse our white wine making potential.
Is there something I am missing about our whites ?
Why doesn't Robert Parker like Australian whites ?
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Phil Shorten
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- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:19 am
Anonymous wrote:he's mostly right, and his views are commonly supported internationally.
Guest
He might be right about 99.9% of the Chardonnays, but as to quality Rieslings and unoaked Semillon its absolute complete tripe! Mr. Parker doesn't understand them. I'm happy for him to mark them low as it means that I can still afford to buy them. Long may his view continue!
Cheers
Phil
Just quietly, how many Australian whites can you name that last more than a decade that are not made from Semillion grapes and produced by either Tyrrell's, McWilliams Mount Pleasant or Brokenwood... and these wines probably need to a certain sort of palate to appreciate them anyway.
Moss Wood Semillon? Yes.
What else... Help me out?
Tyrrell's Vat 47 as a Chardonnay? Maybe. The 1989 I had 2 years ago was great.
You might think Leeuwin or Giaconda Chardonnay but I still think this is debateable. Thoughts? Yes/No. I have never had an example of either over 10 years old.
Even our "great" Rieslings aren't going that well. 1997 - disaster! 1980 seems still to be our greatest vintage but needing to look back 24 years is pretty lame. Has RPjr. had an old Leonay? That is the only aged Riesling that I can think of that has proven it can go the distance.
Good topic.
Adair
Moss Wood Semillon? Yes.
What else... Help me out?
Tyrrell's Vat 47 as a Chardonnay? Maybe. The 1989 I had 2 years ago was great.
You might think Leeuwin or Giaconda Chardonnay but I still think this is debateable. Thoughts? Yes/No. I have never had an example of either over 10 years old.
Even our "great" Rieslings aren't going that well. 1997 - disaster! 1980 seems still to be our greatest vintage but needing to look back 24 years is pretty lame. Has RPjr. had an old Leonay? That is the only aged Riesling that I can think of that has proven it can go the distance.
Good topic.
Adair
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Phil Shorten
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:19 am
Ageworthiness of Australian whites
Adair
Point taken - there are very few Chardonnays that go for more than 5 years - and certainly none that will last like a top white Burgundy. Likewise, I can think of very few Australian whites that will need as long to develop as some Vouvrays and Savennieres. Perhaps the level of natural acidity is the reason, as well as a move in Oz to producing earlier drinking styles (at least in the case of Hunter Semillon).
1997 may be a vintage that has flattered to deceive for Clare Valley Riesling, but I still have little doubt that quality minded producers can and will release wines that "go the distance". Perhaps 1998 will prove so?
Cheers
Phil
Point taken - there are very few Chardonnays that go for more than 5 years - and certainly none that will last like a top white Burgundy. Likewise, I can think of very few Australian whites that will need as long to develop as some Vouvrays and Savennieres. Perhaps the level of natural acidity is the reason, as well as a move in Oz to producing earlier drinking styles (at least in the case of Hunter Semillon).
1997 may be a vintage that has flattered to deceive for Clare Valley Riesling, but I still have little doubt that quality minded producers can and will release wines that "go the distance". Perhaps 1998 will prove so?
Cheers
Phil
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Guest
Re: Ageworthiness of Australian whites
Phil Shorten wrote:Adair
Point taken - there are very few Chardonnays that go for more than 5 years - and certainly none that will last like a top white Burgundy. Likewise, I can think of very few Australian whites that will need as long to develop as some Vouvrays and Savennieres. Perhaps the level of natural acidity is the reason, as well as a move in Oz to producing earlier drinking styles (at least in the case of Hunter Semillon).
1997 may be a vintage that has flattered to deceive for Clare Valley Riesling, but I still have little doubt that quality minded producers can and will release wines that "go the distance". Perhaps 1998 will prove so?
Cheers
Phil
now what exactly are you saying?
As for vouvray and savennieres, is it the acidity or the grape that is the reason.
what makes parker "GOD" in wine review is some stupid followers who just can't decide for themselves and only buy on parker's recommendations. I am happy for him to say Australian wines are crap because it will keep the price low.
Sadly many wineries are now making wine to suit parker and sucking up to him. I am certainly not going to support these kind of wine producers.
I drink what I like not what parker said he like.
Sadly many wineries are now making wine to suit parker and sucking up to him. I am certainly not going to support these kind of wine producers.
I drink what I like not what parker said he like.
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Phil Shorten
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:19 am
Phil Shorten wrote:
Adair
Point taken - there are very few Chardonnays that go for more than 5 years - and certainly none that will last like a top white Burgundy. Likewise, I can think of very few Australian whites that will need as long to develop as some Vouvrays and Savennieres. Perhaps the level of natural acidity is the reason, as well as a move in Oz to producing earlier drinking styles (at least in the case of Hunter Semillon).
1997 may be a vintage that has flattered to deceive for Clare Valley Riesling, but I still have little doubt that quality minded producers can and will release wines that "go the distance". Perhaps 1998 will prove so?
Cheers
Phil
now what exactly are you saying?
As for vouvray and savennieres, is it the acidity or the grape that is the reason.
G'day Guest
I am saying a few things. Firsty re. Vouvray and Savennieres it's a combination of the fact that Chenin Blanc is a grape variety that retains a high level of acidity and it is grown in a cool region within France. Combined with long slow ripening to full phenolic ripeness and gentle treatment in the winery, these are the factors that contribute to its ageworthiness (different of course, to the vast majority of South African Chenins).
As to other comments, I acknowledge Adairs points, and certainly take the view that there are very few ageworthy Chardonnays producing in Australia. However, there are (perhaps a diminishing number, dictated by fashion) Hunter Semillons and some Clare Valley and Eden Valley Rieslings that can and will go the long haul every bit as good as some of the great Leo Burings of the 1970's and 1980's. One only has to taste Leo Buring's 1984 Eden Valley Maturation Reserve to see the ageworthiness of Australian Riesling at its best.
Mr Parker may not be bowled over by Australia's white wines, and that's his choice. I would argue that there are some very fine white wines made in Australia....
- Clare Valley, Eden Valley and Great Southern Riesling (plus the odd bottling from Tasmania, Canberra district, Adelaide Hills and southern Victoria)
- Margaret River, Adelaide Hills and Yarra Valley Chardonnay
- Hunter Valley Semillon (possibly add Margaret River)
- Margaret River Semillon/Sauvignon Blanc Blends (I'd like to see a bit more experimentation with these wines
- Eden Valley Viognier (potential....)
Whether or not Mr Parker thinks much of these wines is irrelevant in my book. The wines speak for themselves.
Cheers
Phil
Adair
Point taken - there are very few Chardonnays that go for more than 5 years - and certainly none that will last like a top white Burgundy. Likewise, I can think of very few Australian whites that will need as long to develop as some Vouvrays and Savennieres. Perhaps the level of natural acidity is the reason, as well as a move in Oz to producing earlier drinking styles (at least in the case of Hunter Semillon).
1997 may be a vintage that has flattered to deceive for Clare Valley Riesling, but I still have little doubt that quality minded producers can and will release wines that "go the distance". Perhaps 1998 will prove so?
Cheers
Phil
now what exactly are you saying?
As for vouvray and savennieres, is it the acidity or the grape that is the reason.
G'day Guest
I am saying a few things. Firsty re. Vouvray and Savennieres it's a combination of the fact that Chenin Blanc is a grape variety that retains a high level of acidity and it is grown in a cool region within France. Combined with long slow ripening to full phenolic ripeness and gentle treatment in the winery, these are the factors that contribute to its ageworthiness (different of course, to the vast majority of South African Chenins).
As to other comments, I acknowledge Adairs points, and certainly take the view that there are very few ageworthy Chardonnays producing in Australia. However, there are (perhaps a diminishing number, dictated by fashion) Hunter Semillons and some Clare Valley and Eden Valley Rieslings that can and will go the long haul every bit as good as some of the great Leo Burings of the 1970's and 1980's. One only has to taste Leo Buring's 1984 Eden Valley Maturation Reserve to see the ageworthiness of Australian Riesling at its best.
Mr Parker may not be bowled over by Australia's white wines, and that's his choice. I would argue that there are some very fine white wines made in Australia....
- Clare Valley, Eden Valley and Great Southern Riesling (plus the odd bottling from Tasmania, Canberra district, Adelaide Hills and southern Victoria)
- Margaret River, Adelaide Hills and Yarra Valley Chardonnay
- Hunter Valley Semillon (possibly add Margaret River)
- Margaret River Semillon/Sauvignon Blanc Blends (I'd like to see a bit more experimentation with these wines
- Eden Valley Viognier (potential....)
Whether or not Mr Parker thinks much of these wines is irrelevant in my book. The wines speak for themselves.
Cheers
Phil
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KMP
- Posts: 1246
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:02 am
- Location: Expat, now in San Diego, California
- Contact:
I must admit that I'm not a follower of Mr Parker. I do get Wine Spectator and often will look at what gets good scores (esp. for the Aussies), but nine times out of ten I'll buy what I like. WS does give some good scores to Aussie whites, a number are rieslings.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Parker has only recently done serious reviewing of rieslings, especially from Germany. If that's correct then it suggests to me that he is following the consumer who (in the USA) has found these wines great value. It also suggests that he has either ignored them in the past because they previously didn't have a large following, or he just does not understand or appreciate riesling! A fruit bomb is one thing, kerosene is completely different!
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Parker has only recently done serious reviewing of rieslings, especially from Germany. If that's correct then it suggests to me that he is following the consumer who (in the USA) has found these wines great value. It also suggests that he has either ignored them in the past because they previously didn't have a large following, or he just does not understand or appreciate riesling! A fruit bomb is one thing, kerosene is completely different!
KMP wrote:A fruit bomb is one thing, kerosene is completely different!
Unless that Kero is a Shiraz from McLaren Vale that has both VA and liquorice; these two scents can combine to form a smell thats not unlike kero.
IMO, Phil hit the nail on the head when he said that Parker does not have a huge depth of experience in Oz Ry-slings. Frankly, I also deeply suspect his ability to predict the drinking windows for many of those big SA reds he loves too.
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MT
TORB wrote:KMP wrote:A fruit bomb is one thing, kerosene is completely different!
Unless that Kero is a Shiraz from McLaren Vale that has both VA and liquorice; these two scents can combine to form a smell thats not unlike kero.
IMO, Phil hit the nail on the head when he said that Parker does not have a huge depth of experience in Oz Ry-slings. Frankly, I also deeply suspect his ability to predict the drinking windows for many of those big SA reds he loves too.
Yes, let's discard what Parker says regarding drinking windows for our SA reds and listen to TORB instead
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MT
MT wrote:Yes, let's discard what Parker says regarding drinking windows for our SA reds and listen to TORB instead
Assuming you are "possibly" the MT that owns a certain winery, I guess that comment is not at all surprising given that Parker has said some nice things about your wines and you didn't like what I last said.
If you are not that MT, then fine, you are entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine but I stand by my comments. I don't profess to a palate anywhere near as good as Parkers, but I do have a few more years experience in seeing how Australian wines age.
MT wrote:TORB wrote:KMP wrote:A fruit bomb is one thing, kerosene is completely different!
Unless that Kero is a Shiraz from McLaren Vale that has both VA and liquorice; these two scents can combine to form a smell thats not unlike kero.
IMO, Phil hit the nail on the head when he said that Parker does not have a huge depth of experience in Oz Ry-slings. Frankly, I also deeply suspect his ability to predict the drinking windows for many of those big SA reds he loves too.
Yes, let's discard what Parker says regarding drinking windows for our SA reds and listen to TORB instead
May I suggest you steer clear of personal attacks and stick to topic.
I have one instance of a Parker 93 pointer to which he gave a 20 year drinking window, and 10 of us around the table agreed it was on its way downhill already - as a 3 year old!
It happens. Parker can get it wrong. TORB can get it wrong.
Andrew
Wizz wrote:It happens. Parker can get it wrong. TORB can get it wrong.
Wizz,
Wot me get it rong? Neva!
Well, hang on a second, I did get out of bed this morning. 
You are dead right mate, we all get drinking windows wrong and to make matters worse, its a moving target can is easily influenced by all sorts of factors, including bottle variation, and a load of other possible factors.
JO is the first to admit that he tried wine "x" on 3 occasions and had three very different windows, yet would swear blind that he was accurate for "that sample" on each occasion.
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Empty
May I suggest you steer clear of personal attacks and stick to topic.
I was merely responding to another personal attack.
I don't profess to a palate anywhere near as good as Parkers, but I do have a few more years experience in seeing how Australian wines age.
It is difficult to respond to this without it sounding personal, but it may come as a shock to you that no one producing wine really cares what 'TORB' thinks of a wine. Granted there are some consumers who consume one type of red that will derive benefit from your notes, but ask the winemakers that have even heard of TORB what they think.
I imagine at this point you might get 5 or 6 people come to your defence and even rattle of the names of half a dozen insignificant wineries or players in the industry who are too scared of you to say otherwise.
Me, I will shut up and take my thoughts elsewhere. Amen to that.
I was merely responding to another personal attack.
I don't profess to a palate anywhere near as good as Parkers, but I do have a few more years experience in seeing how Australian wines age.
It is difficult to respond to this without it sounding personal, but it may come as a shock to you that no one producing wine really cares what 'TORB' thinks of a wine. Granted there are some consumers who consume one type of red that will derive benefit from your notes, but ask the winemakers that have even heard of TORB what they think.
I imagine at this point you might get 5 or 6 people come to your defence and even rattle of the names of half a dozen insignificant wineries or players in the industry who are too scared of you to say otherwise.
Me, I will shut up and take my thoughts elsewhere. Amen to that.
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Another guest
Empty wrote:May I suggest you steer clear of personal attacks and stick to topic.
I was merely responding to another personal attack.
You'll have to point out where that attack was, I cant see it?
Frankly, I'm sick to death of posts about Parker. The whole wine drinking world has an opinion, half of them will offer it, someone calls someone else a dickhead and then its on for young and old.
Time to call NAZI
now, lets talk about wine.
Wizz wrote:Empty wrote:May I suggest you steer clear of personal attacks and stick to topic.
I was merely responding to another personal attack.
You'll have to point out where that attack was, I cant see it?
Frankly, I'm sick to death of posts about Parker. The whole wine drinking world has an opinion, half of them will offer it, someone calls someone else a dickhead and then its on for young and old.
Time to call NAZI
now, lets talk about wine.
Onya Andrew. You tellim. Someone needs to.
Graham
Chardonnay: A drink you have when there is no RED wine, the beer hasn't arrived and the water may be polluted
AlanK wrote:Is it only me who find it hard to take the guests seriously when they are nameless? Log on please!
People who posted as Guest without any constructive comments does not deserve to be taken seriously or heard. Frankly, I don't take any notice what guest has to say and nor should anyone else. Responding to his/her comments is a waste of time.
Let's talk about wine and exchange knowledge rather than rubbish
Empty wrote:
I don't profess to a palate anywhere near as good as Parkers, but I do have a few more years experience in seeing how Australian wines age.
It is difficult to respond to this without it sounding personal, but it may come as a shock to you that no one producing wine really cares what 'TORB' thinks of a wine. Granted there are some consumers who consume one type of red that will derive benefit from your notes, but ask the winemakers that have even heard of TORB what they think.
I imagine at this point you might get 5 or 6 people come to your defence and even rattle of the names of half a dozen insignificant wineries or players in the industry who are too scared of you to say otherwise.
Me, I will shut up and take my thoughts elsewhere. Amen to that.
Well, Parker doesn't have a long history of reviewing Australian reds, so why his drinking window predictions gain automatic authority because of his experience with Bordeaux is beyond me.
And, apart from anything else, just because someone has great influence in the marketplace doesn't necessarily make his views correct. Time will tell. Perhaps I should get hold of some early WA Australian issues and see how all those Clarendon Hills wines are aging...
regards,
Graeme
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Ginger
Adair wrote:Just quietly, how many Australian whites can you name that last more than a decade that are not made from Semillion grapes and produced by either Tyrrell's, McWilliams Mount Pleasant or Brokenwood... and these wines probably need to a certain sort of palate to appreciate them anyway.
Moss Wood Semillon? Yes.
What else... Help me out?
Adair
I will help you with another one Adair - what about Tahbilk or Mitchelton Marsanne? They age wonderfully and are fantastic value! I have no idea if the style of Marsanne in Australia is different to that in France. Perhaps someone else could clarify?
To my good friends Down Under!
Mr. Parker does not have very deep or wide experience with Australian wines. At best, he's visited Australia once or twice.
As a result, he primarily relies on a handful of importers (Grateful Palate, most notably) to supply him with wines to review.
Since Australian Rieslings are not imported to The States in any quantity, it is no surprise he hasn't reviewed many of them.
Note well, Mr. Parker has never reviewed deBortoli Noble One, or, any Wendouree bottling among just a couple of "holes" in his Australian wine experience.
Quite frankly, I'd be tickled pink if those "holes" remain unfilled. More for me!
You can't imagine how many Parker "numbers chasers" over here would suddenly begin buying up Oz Riesling if he started to review them.
Mr. Parker does not have very deep or wide experience with Australian wines. At best, he's visited Australia once or twice.
As a result, he primarily relies on a handful of importers (Grateful Palate, most notably) to supply him with wines to review.
Since Australian Rieslings are not imported to The States in any quantity, it is no surprise he hasn't reviewed many of them.
Note well, Mr. Parker has never reviewed deBortoli Noble One, or, any Wendouree bottling among just a couple of "holes" in his Australian wine experience.
Quite frankly, I'd be tickled pink if those "holes" remain unfilled. More for me!
You can't imagine how many Parker "numbers chasers" over here would suddenly begin buying up Oz Riesling if he started to review them.
Steve
"Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now."
"Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now."
TORB wrote:Ginger wrote:I will help you with another one Adair - what about Tahbilk or Mitchelton Marsanne?
Bloody hell Ginger, don't mention the damn "M" word or Adair or you will give him ideas and he will bring another one to the next dinner.He is famous for them.
Oh my God! I can't believe that I forgot Tahbilk Marsanne!!!
Thank you Ginger.
And to you Ric - big tongue sticking out at you!
Adair
Last edited by Adair on Tue May 04, 2004 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KMP
- Posts: 1246
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:02 am
- Location: Expat, now in San Diego, California
- Contact:
Doc Rock wrote:You can't imagine how many Parker "numbers chasers" over here would suddenly begin buying up Oz Riesling if he started to review them.
I couldn't agree more with this. The number chasers will destroy access to anything of reasonable value if it breaks the 90+ barrier. I can guarantee that the next tasting I go to there will be at least one character who will ask what the wines scored (either from Parker or Wine Spectator), while actually tasting the wines!! The mind boggles at how naive these people are about selecting wine.
Mike
KMP wrote:[I couldn't agree more with this. The number chasers will destroy access to anything of reasonable value if it breaks the 90+ barrier. I can guarantee that the next tasting I go to there will be at least one character who will ask what the wines scored (either from Parker or Wine Spectator), while actually tasting the wines!! The mind boggles at how naive these people are about selecting wine.
Mike
Mike,
Let's see. He has Pierre Rovani doing Burgundy now. And Daniel Thomases doing Italy. I'm guessing that, given his age and a natural desire to do other things, it might not be too long before he hands off Australian wines to someone else as well.
OK, everybody...who out there wants to do Australian wine reviews for The Wine Advocate?
Steve
"Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now."
"Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now."