2009 Bordeaux Thread

[DaveB]

Chasse Spleen - way out of whack, no balance.

Agree on that....over extracted and a bit hard....Chateau Maucaillou is probably the pick from Moulis...maybe just a touch better than Chateau Poujeaux

[griff]

Good man! Thanks for the notes Julio. The Leoville Barton seems to polarise.

cheers

Carl

[rooman]

Julio

Thank you for the excellent notes. Sadly I doubt we will be offered the same opportunity down here. From everything I have read, my fantasy list was almost identical being Figeac, Pontet Canet and Haut Batailley. The one addition was La Conseillante. Was it on display?

Mark

[jafa]

liv-ex.com in the UK proposes listing all the 2009 prices being offered by the various chateau so that buyers can see how much the 2009 prices have increased over the 2008 prices. Liv-ex's intention is empower buyers.

I've been using the bordoverview website to make ep selections for the last 3-4 years.
Features ratings from several critics; RP, JR, WS, Dcan... and 1st tranche pricing comparisons as they come out, 2004->2009.
Try link http://www.bordoverview.com/?bank=left

cheers jafa

[rooman]

liv-ex.com in the UK proposes listing all the 2009 prices being offered by the various chateau so that buyers can see how much the 2009 prices have increased over the 2008 prices. Liv-ex's intention is empower buyers.

I've been using the bordoverview website to make ep selections for the last 3-4 years.
Features ratings from several critics; RP, JR, WS, Dcan... and 1st tranche pricing comparisons as they come out, 2004->2009.
Try link http://www.bordoverview.com/?bank=left

cheers jafa

Yes. I came across this a season or so ago. It may have been an earlier post by you that initially put me onto it. Great little website

Mark

[Julio G]

Julio

Thank you for the excellent notes. Sadly I doubt we will be offered the same opportunity down here. From everything I have read, my fantasy list was almost identical being Figeac, Pontet Canet and Haut Batailley. The one addition was La Conseillante. Was it on display?

Mark

It was Mark but I didn't get around to it.

[Julio G]

My local merchant had about 20 barrel samples on taste today and La Conseillante was there.... Powerful and very prominent but fine tannins, a big moutful of wine here... you will need to be patient but it is good.

[Julio G]

... also I can reiterate that Batailley is superb and Brane Cantenac showed very well today. If you want a good, well priced claret, Citran was solid with a touch of interest on the finish.

[pizzler]

I am holding off buying any 2009 Bordeaux's for now because there is not likely to be a shortage of the wines when they are finally shipped and there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the wine industry in some parts of the world is still in free fall with huge unsold inventories from prior vintages which could precipitate price reductions across the board that will make your head spin.

There is a lot of talk, for instance, that a large number of smaller producers in California will not survive in this environment because they lack the deep pockets to weather the storm. This will trigger bankruptcies and sell-offs that are unprecedented. Remember that financial crisis that made 2009 a depressing year? It's still with us and is just now coming home to roost in the wine trade.

I'm also very concerned that the reporting on the 09 vintage is more controversial than I can ever remember it. For example, Wine Spectator's James Suckling gave the Vieux Maillet (Pomerol) a 92-95 rating which is dazzling for a wine that is running about $30 USD. Wine Advocate's Neil Martin tasted the same wine a day or so later under the identical circumstances and gave it an 80-82 rating. I don't know which guy is right (my bet is on Neil Martin, however) but it has to give one pause to know that wine you'll get in a year or so could turn out to be a mediocre or inferior wine for which you paid full price.

I'm worried that the hype is more related to the concern that wine prices may be undergoing a drastic deflation soon rather than the quality of the wines themselves. If I were a wholesaler or a retailer I would be hyping the 09's like crazy to reduce my inventory and financial risk...but I'm not. So I'm content to let a few Bordeaux bargains pass me by in 2009 while waiting for great bargains that are coming down the pike.

[DaveB]

I am holding off buying any 2009 Bordeaux's for now because there is not likely to be a shortage of the wines when they are finally shipped and there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the wine industry in some parts of the world is still in free fall with huge unsold inventories from prior vintages which could precipitate price reductions across the board that will make your head spin.

There is a lot of talk, for instance, that a large number of smaller producers in California will not survive in this environment because they lack the deep pockets to weather the storm. This will trigger bankruptcies and sell-offs that are unprecedented. Remember that financial crisis that made 2009 a depressing year? It's still with us and is just now coming home to roost in the wine trade.

I'm also very concerned that the reporting on the 09 vintage is more controversial than I can ever remember it. For example, Wine Spectator's James Suckling gave the Vieux Maillet (Pomerol) a 92-95 rating which is dazzling for a wine that is running about $30 USD. Wine Advocate's Neil Martin tasted the same wine a day or so later under the identical circumstances and gave it an 80-82 rating. I don't know which guy is right (my bet is on Neil Martin, however) but it has to give one pause to know that wine you'll get in a year or so could turn out to be a mediocre or inferior wine for which you paid full price.

I'm worried that the hype is more related to the concern that wine prices may be undergoing a drastic deflation soon rather than the quality of the wines themselves. If I were a wholesaler or a retailer I would be hyping the 09's like crazy to reduce my inventory and financial risk...but I'm not. So I'm content to let a few Bordeaux bargains pass me by in 2009 while waiting for great bargains that are coming down the pike.

There is huge interest in Asia this year and with the rumors of the big guns pricing not being released until after Vinexpo in Hong Kong you can guarantee there will a lot snapped up in a very short space of time.

The discrepancies in scoring has been going on for a while...sometimes drastic, sometimes less so and has a lot to do with a stylistic change in the region .....the wines have become lusher and plusher....less classic. I found the '09's to be very extracted, some of them not entirely Bordeaux-like...much more modern and New Worldy but on a whole very impressive.

Some alcohol levels were a concern, Cabernet fared better than Merlot on the whole and there was more consistency on the left bank and the Sauternes and Barsacs had a cracking year.

It's unlikely I'll splash out on anything stratospheric but I'll buy a few wines and there is great value in Listrac and Moulis this year.....I'll certainly be buying some stickies!

[DaveB]

The amount of building and cranes visible in Bordeaux at the moment would suggest that they are in anything but freefall also....heaps of wineries are expanding...Cheval Blanc is spending something like 18 million yiros on a new cellar at present.

I noticed Chateau D'Arche was released yesterday....that showed really well in the blind UGC Sauterne & Barsac tastings...one interesting thing I noticed over there was how few journo's taste blind...the vast majority were at the open label gigs.

[rooman]

As some readers will be aware, the Henry Tax Review has suggested a move to volumetric taxation of wine. There is an article on the proposed change in the AFR today. I am curious to know if people know at what point in time the WET becoming due and payable on a wine purchase ie is it when you take physical delivery or when you order it.

I am specifically interested in what happens to the WET where wine is delivered in the future such as under one of the en premiur Bordeaux campaigns. If we buy wine now that will be delivered in 2-3 years and the law changed before we take delivery of the wine, is there a liability to pay the WET? If the prices we pay now include the WET, is the WET refunded? Should retailers be differing the WET payment until the buyers take delivery.

At the moment I am wondering whether it is better to buy the wine in London in bond, ie free of all taxes. I can then have the wine shipped here in 3 years. If the WET is still in place then I pay the WET. If not I save nearly 30%. A number of the UK retailers will ship to Aus for $200 which is much less than the WET on some of the wine I am thinking about.

[griff]

As some readers will be aware, the Henry Tax Review has suggested a move to volumetric taxation of wine. There is an article on the proposed change in the AFR today. I am curious to know if people know at what point in time the WET becoming due and payable on a wine purchase ie is it when you take physical delivery or when you order it.

I am specifically interested in what happens to the WET where wine is delivered in the future such as under one of the en premiur Bordeaux campaigns. If we buy wine now that will be delivered in 2-3 years and the law changed before we take delivery of the wine, is there a liability to pay the WET? If the prices we pay now include the WET, is the WET refunded? Should retailers be differing the WET payment until the buyers take delivery.

At the moment I am wondering whether it is better to buy the wine in London in bond, ie free of all taxes. I can then have the wine shipped here in 3 years. If the WET is still in place then I pay the WET. If not I save nearly 30%. A number of the UK retailers will ship to Aus for $200 which is much less than the WET on some of the wine I am thinking about.

I would have thought the retailer would refund you any change in tax. No one knows how much the difference would be, if any. Personally I am betting they wont do away with it despite WET income being a relatively small pot of money. Same with the alcopop tax except I think the pot of money is larger here. The Henry review is out May 2 so not long to know what is in there and the government response. Hopefully timelines are included.

cheers

Carl

[rooman]

Up until today it seemed the importers had been playing reasonably fair with the price difference between other major citys such as LA/NY/London and Sydney really only being the WET and GST difference. Sadly with the latest round of offers out over the past few days, that honesty seems to have gone out the window as the local Aus importers have finally started to stick the knife in at this end.

Grand Puy Lacoste is on offer in both LA (Wallys) and London (Berry Borthers) for $A82, a bloody good price when you consider the price of wines such as 7078. Fairly consistent in both locations especially given the extra distance and cost of freight etc to LA.

On the other hand I have received half a dozen offers today for GPL with the top price being $150. Since the price of getting the wine to LA is about the same as getting it to Aus, the rest is definitely not tax!! Same with Cleric Milon, $A64 in LA, offers up to $A110 here.

Damn annoying to be so ripped off.