Question Two - Grenache/Blends and Grenache Regions

[Michael McNally]

So this year's resolution was to try more Grenache and Grenache Blends. I have had some very good ones: for example Pertaringa Two Gentlemen's Grenache; Murray Street Vineyard "The Barossa"; Paxton AAA. I have had some good ones: eg. tonight's Brini G/S; Spinifex Esprit. And some ordinary ones: only the recent Langmeil springs to mind.

Most examples seem to Barossa or McLaren Vale.

Two questions
1 - What is good in the sub $30 range?
2 - Is there anywhere that does good examples besides Barossa and Mclaren? (obviously there is the CDR and Spanish examples)

Not much left of the Brini now. But I am pretty sure it would have been off by tomorrow night anyway.....

Clink

Michael

[Rednick]

Hi Michael,

Locally it does seem that McLaren Vale & Barossa are the go although I'm sure there are examples outside.

Bin 138 & D'Arenberg Derelict Vineyard are two favourites of mine and sit around the low $20
Teusner Avatar, Paxton AAA & Hewitson Miss Harry are all good drops around this price range.

If you go a few dollars over then this brings the likes of Henschke Johanns Garden & Samuels Gorge into play which are both very good

I would definitely hunt for some CDR - there is a fair ammount around the $20 mark - a recent favourite

Delas Freres Cotes du Rhone Saint Esprit 2007, even the Guigal 05 CDR that is still knocking around is a classy wine.

Cheers - Nick

[Loztralia]

I remember being pretty impressed by some Kabminye GSM blends when in the Barossa last month, and some of them were reasonably keenly priced. Off the top of my head I don't recall which I favoured I'm afraid.

[fatdoi]

09 Torbreck Cuvée Juveniles is my fav of the current vintage range. It's got similar power & concentration of the oaked version Steading but without the heaviness of the oak...
08 Henschke Henrys 7..... an all round fav med bodied blends...

[Red Bigot]

Turkey Flat Butchers Block SGM 2007 looked good in a group tasting earlier this month.

[Fortune 3rd reg. attempt]

Rockford Moppa Springs

[AaronL]

Check this post for a few good ones to try:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10842

Other sub $30 GSM blends that are worth a try are the 2007 Sons of Kennedy, and the 2007 Maverick Greenock Rise , and if you're looking at a cheap grenache hit, try the 2008 Jacob's Creek Grenache Shiraz.

[Tristram Shandy]

Michael wrote:

Two questions
1 - What is good in the sub $30 range?
2 - Is there anywhere that does good examples besides Barossa and Mclaren? (obviously there is the CDR and Spanish examples)

I feel compelled to chime in here. I'm biased towards straight Grenache wines, or at least Grenache dominant blends. Had a ripper last night at a new Afghan restaurant in Adelaide - Dio by Petagna Wines which comes from the McLaren Vale region. Terrific blend of Grenache with Shiraz and Mataro, but outside the price range you are interested in. I think it retails for around $40. In the sub $30 range there are quite a few very interesting ones. I would concur with the Pertaringa recommendation. I was just at their new release party on the weekend and the 2008 release of the Two Gentleman was very impressive. I would also include a few others in the sub $30 list:

Yangarra Old Vine Grenache (MV)
La Curio Reserve Grenache (MV)
Olivers Taranga Cadenzia (MV)
Foggo Old Bush Vine Grenache (MV)
Smallfry Grenache (BV)
Hutton Vale Grenache Mataro (BV)
Clos Clare "The Hayes Boy" Grenache (Clare Valley!!)
D'Arenberg D'Arry's Original Shiraz Grenache (MV) - in the good years
Tim Smith MGS (BV)
Gramp's Five Generations Grenache (BV) - this is the best grenache bargain
Winter Creek The Old Barossa Blend (BV)
Teusner Avatar (BV)

If $30 were not a barrier:

Samuels Gorge Grenache (MV) $40
Yangarra High Sands Grenache (MV) $65
Chateau Tanunda The Everest (BV) $150
Clarendon Hills Blewitt Sprints Grenache (MV) $85
Noon Eclipse (MV) $??
Laughing Jack Limited Three (BV) $45
Charles Melton Richelieu (BV) $55
Charles Melton Nine Popes (BV) $55
Delisio Grenache (MV) $35
D'Arenberg The Ironstone Pressings (MV) $55
Kalleske Old Vine Grenache (BV) $50
Torbreck The Steading (BV) $40
Schwarz Thiele Road Grenache (BV) $32
Rusden Christine's Vineyard Grenache (BV) $35
Cirillo 1850 Grenache (BV) $45

As you can see, there is only one grenache wine in my list that comes from outside the the McLaren Vale - Barossa Valley axis. There are a couple other examples from the Clare Valley, such as Adelina and Kilikanoon, but they aren't up to the competition yet. And Jasper Hill does a grenache which I haven't tasted yet which may prove interesting. So, in practice, I think we'd have to say: no, there aren't really any other regions that produce good examples of grenache. The Barossa and McLaren Vale are both blessed with lots of old bushvine grenache and a lot of experience in handling it. My preference is for a vibrant and slightly sweet nose, a spicy medium bodied wine, not too sweet, with a dry finish. Grenache wines tend to have a higher alcohol content (up over 16% at times), but in a good wine this does not distract.

One interesting feature for me is that Grenache wines do not seem to improve significantly with age. A couple of years is fine, but after that there is the dange of losing the spicy freshness. As far as I've experienced, greanche, on its own, doesn't have anything with which to replace this loss. It doesn't really become more elegant in the sense that pinot noir or cabernet or shiraz does. In fact, I've come across a few examples where the wine seems to go dead. Very disappointing. Happily, there is plenty of fine grenache around, although one does have to do some searching at times.

There are a few grenache wines out there that I haven't had the chance to try yet, such as the Murray Street you mentioned, or the The Duke from Kilakanoon or the Torbreck Les Amis (never seems to be available for tasting at the cellar door when I'm there!!)

A special personal favourite was the Moppa Grenache that Teusner made that was only available in magnums. I wish I had a couple of those!!!

Cheers,

Tristram Shandy

[Michael McNally]

Other sub $30 GSM blends that are worth a try are the 2007 Sons of Kennedy

Can't believe I have forgotten to mention this. It is a fave. The 06 was slightly better, but also love the 07. Thanks for the link and i will look for the JC, as their QPR is usually pretty good.

[Michael McNally]

I'm biased towards straight Grenache wines, or at least Grenache dominant blends. Had a ripper last night at a new Afghan restaurant in Adelaide - Dio by Petagna Wines which comes from the McLaren Vale region.

I haven't developed any bias yet, but I'm working on it. It has to be Grenache/Shiraz rather than the other way round for me.

So, in practice, I think we'd have to say: no, there aren't really any other regions that produce good examples of grenache. The Barossa and McLaren Vale are both blessed with lots of old bushvine grenache and a lot of experience in handling it. My preference is for a vibrant and slightly sweet nose, a spicy medium bodied wine, not too sweet, with a dry finish. Grenache wines tend to have a higher alcohol content (up over 16% at times), but in a good wine this does not distract.

I am happy with a little sweetness and musk stickiness to the fruit as long as it finishes dry.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer Tristram Shandy as it's given me plenty to work with. Thanks to everyone else for their input as well.

The quest continues!

Michael

[TiggerK]

One interesting feature for me is that Grenache wines do not seem to improve significantly with age. A couple of years is fine, but after that there is the danger of losing the spicy freshness. As far as I've experienced, greanche, on its own, doesn't have anything with which to replace this loss. It doesn't really become more elegant in the sense that pinot noir or cabernet or shiraz does. In fact, I've come across a few examples where the wine seems to go dead. Very disappointing. Happily, there is plenty of fine grenache around, although one does have to do some searching at times.

Cheers,
Tristram Shandy

Agreed here.... My original Grenache favourite was the Penfolds Cellar Reserve Grenache 2002 (a great and rare year for premium Barossa Grenache). It was full of wonderful (if not somewhat extreme) ripe raspberry and blackcurrant goodness galore, but has now started to fade rapidly, much to my distress at keeping the last few precious bottles for as long as I could. AFAIK, they haven't released this wine since as subsequent vintages haven't allowed such quality.

Scored some Kalleske Old Vine Grenache 2007, but haven't tried it yet as all the reviews said 'fantastic, but needs time'... so fingers crossed, but now wondering how much time?? In the meantime, love the Teusners, Johann's, (some) 138 and of course Gigondas and CndP where knowledge, vintage and budget allows.

Cheers
TiggerK

[jeremy]

05 and 06 Cirillo Grenache awesome.

08 Tscharke Grenache very good.

06 Burge Family Winemakers Grenache worth a look.

06 Glaymond El Abuelo Grenache too.

Massenna do a good one GSM.

Some high ABVs here, so stay away if you're scared of numbers. Some have alcohol warmth, some don't.

Best GSM I've ever had was 96 Charles Melton Nine Popes, consumed last December. Phenomenal.

[Sean O'Sullivan]

deleted

[mf]

Tried quite a few Grenache Blends and straight Grenache (less of the straight Grenache) last year. A lot mentioned above - one straight Grenache I was impressed by was Lake Breeze in Langhorne Creek. It was from 75 year old vines - was less than $20 if I remember right.

[Hindmarsh]

Agree with many of the recommendations listed, though I have to add:

Yelland and Papps Old Vine Grenache 2007 (yet to taste the 2008) to the list. They make a wine built to age yet great to drink now.

Teusner are my go-to winery for Grenache blends other than the above, also any winery that pays attention to Grenache and doesnt just add it to their wine list to increase the choice at the cellar door. Luckily there are quite a few of these mentioned in this list. Am yet to find a region beyond the Barossa/M'Vale that produces great Australian Grenache/blends.

Qn: could you have a blend of SA Grenache and Victorian or Hunter Shiraz? how would it change the blend?

[Mahmoud Ali]

I have to disagree with Tristam Shandy's comment about Grenache wines not being able to age. If he's referring to single varietal wines then he may have a point as I've yet to have an old one. But if "Grenache wines" includes blends, even those with a high component of Grenache then it's off the mark.

There are probably quite a few Australian Grenache blends that are known to age well. These include d'Arrey's Original and Melton's Nine Popes, producers who have been making these blends for quite some time. Some of the current crop of Australian Grenache and their blends make high alcohol, over-ripe versions that probably will fall apart within a few short years.

The Chateauneuf du Pape region in southern France make Grenache predominant blends that last for decades. Recently I had a bottle of 1979 from a minor producer that was delightful if fragile. The 1989 de la Gardine is a beast with more than a decade ahead of it. In fact the Guigal Cotes du Rhone, a wine produced in large quantities, can age for a decade or more. The 1990 bottling, admittedly from a good year, was still drinking well in 2008. Chateauneuf du Pape wines are typically aged in large old barrels, not new oak, are not chaptalized, and must be a minimum 13.5% alcohol.

My guess is that many producers, known for their Shiraz or Cabernet wines, don't know how to make Grenache wines that can age. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making a fruity, spicy wine without the structure to age but please don't blame the grape variety. It's sort of what Jeremy Oliver once said about Australian Merlot when it was first popular, that too many wine makers were making Shiraz wines with merlot, doing what they knew about Shiraz, not making Merlot wines on it's own terms.

Cheers.......................Mahmoud.

[jeremy]

I have to disagree with Tristam Shandy's comment about Grenache wines not being able to age. If he's referring to single varietal wines then he may have a point as I've yet to have an old one. But if "Grenache wines" includes blends, even those with a high component of Grenache then it's off the mark.

There are probably quite a few Australian Grenache blends that are known to age well. These include d'Arrey's Original and Melton's Nine Popes, producers who have been making these blends for quite some time. Some of the current crop of Australian Grenache and their blends make high alcohol, over-ripe versions that probably will fall apart within a few short years.

The Chateauneuf du Pape region in southern France make Grenache predominant blends that last for decades. Recently I had a bottle of 1979 from a minor producer that was delightful if fragile. The 1989 de la Gardine is a beast with more than a decade ahead of it. In fact the Guigal Cotes du Rhone, a wine produced in large quantities, can age for a decade or more. The 1990 bottling, admittedly from a good year, was still drinking well in 2008. Chateauneuf du Pape wines are typically aged in large old barrels, not new oak, are not chaptalized, and must be a minimum 13.5% alcohol.

My guess is that many producers, known for their Shiraz or Cabernet wines, don't know how to make Grenache wines that can age. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making a fruity, spicy wine without the structure to age but please don't blame the grape variety. It's sort of what Jeremy Oliver once said about Australian Merlot when it was first popular, that too many wine makers were making Shiraz wines with merlot, doing what they knew about Shiraz, not making Merlot wines on it's own terms.

Cheers.......................Mahmoud.

Yep, couldn't agree more.

Had an 89 and an 01 Grenache dominan Mont Redon Chateauneuf du Pape this month. Both superb. I stronlgly suspect a few straight Grenache wines could age a treat, Tuesner Astral being a prime example. Old vines + increased interest and knowledge could see a lot more Grenache/Grenache based wines being cellared. IMHO of course.

[odyssey]

I have to disagree with Tristam Shandy's comment about Grenache wines not being able to age. If he's referring to single varietal wines then he may have a point as I've yet to have an old one. But if "Grenache wines" includes blends, even those with a high component of Grenache then it's off the mark.

There are probably quite a few Australian Grenache blends that are known to age well. These include d'Arrey's Original and Melton's Nine Popes, producers who have been making these blends for quite some time. Some of the current crop of Australian Grenache and their blends make high alcohol, over-ripe versions that probably will fall apart within a few short years.

The Chateauneuf du Pape region in southern France make Grenache predominant blends that last for decades. Recently I had a bottle of 1979 from a minor producer that was delightful if fragile. The 1989 de la Gardine is a beast with more than a decade ahead of it. In fact the Guigal Cotes du Rhone, a wine produced in large quantities, can age for a decade or more. The 1990 bottling, admittedly from a good year, was still drinking well in 2008. Chateauneuf du Pape wines are typically aged in large old barrels, not new oak, are not chaptalized, and must be a minimum 13.5% alcohol.

My guess is that many producers, known for their Shiraz or Cabernet wines, don't know how to make Grenache wines that can age. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making a fruity, spicy wine without the structure to age but please don't blame the grape variety. It's sort of what Jeremy Oliver once said about Australian Merlot when it was first popular, that too many wine makers were making Shiraz wines with merlot, doing what they knew about Shiraz, not making Merlot wines on it's own terms.

Cheers.......................Mahmoud.

Yep, couldn't agree more.

Had an 89 and an 01 Grenache dominan Mont Redon Chateauneuf du Pape this month. Both superb. I stronlgly suspect a few straight Grenache wines could age a treat, Tuesner Astral being a prime example. Old vines + increased interest and knowledge could see a lot more Grenache/Grenache based wines being cellared. IMHO of course.

I was going to say the same thing, ie. "what about CdPs"?

[pstarr]

There's a Clonakilla shiraz/grenache blend in the works - ahead of a full-blown Clonakilla go at a CNdP style with many of the other Rhones in it. FWIW, we've put in an initial planting of grenache at Quarry Hill last year right at the rocky top of the hill. Warmer and frost-protected sites in Canberra should get grenache and some of the other Rhone's through, and at higher acids and lower baumes. That's the plan anyway...

[griff]

There's a Clonakilla shiraz/grenache blend in the works - ahead of a full-blown Clonakilla go at a CNdP style with many of the other Rhones in it. FWIW, we've put in an initial planting of grenache at Quarry Hill last year right at the rocky top of the hill. Warmer and frost-protected sites in Canberra should get grenache and some of the other Rhone's through, and at higher acids and lower baumes. That's the plan anyway...

Very interesting news. Thanks!

cheers

Carl

[Tristram Shandy]

Mahmound Ali wrote:

I have to disagree with Tristam Shandy's comment about Grenache wines not being able to age. If he's referring to single varietal wines then he may have a point as I've yet to have an old one. But if "Grenache wines" includes blends, even those with a high component of Grenache then it's off the mark.

There are probably quite a few Australian Grenache blends that are known to age well. These include d'Arrey's Original and Melton's Nine Popes, producers who have been making these blends for quite some time. Some of the current crop of Australian Grenache and their blends make high alcohol, over-ripe versions that probably will fall apart within a few short years.

The Chateauneuf du Pape region in southern France make Grenache predominant blends that last for decades. Recently I had a bottle of 1979 from a minor producer that was delightful if fragile. The 1989 de la Gardine is a beast with more than a decade ahead of it. In fact the Guigal Cotes du Rhone, a wine produced in large quantities, can age for a decade or more. The 1990 bottling, admittedly from a good year, was still drinking well in 2008. Chateauneuf du Pape wines are typically aged in large old barrels, not new oak, are not chaptalized, and must be a minimum 13.5% alcohol.

My guess is that many producers, known for their Shiraz or Cabernet wines, don't know how to make Grenache wines that can age. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making a fruity, spicy wine without the structure to age but please don't blame the grape variety. It's sort of what Jeremy Oliver once said about Australian Merlot when it was first popular, that too many wine makers were making Shiraz wines with merlot, doing what they knew about Shiraz, not making Merlot wines on it's own terms.

You are certainly correct: there are "quite a few Australian Grenache blends that are known to age well". I should have been more clear that I was indeed referring to straight grenache wines (although many of these actually have a small component of shiraz or mataro). I agree that d'Arry's Original can age quite well, but this is only a 50% grenache wine. And I'm a big fan of Nine Popes. And I should note that there have been some grenache wines that have held up. The few bottles of Clarendon Hills that I've had that have been more than seven or eight years old have held up quite well - but I still question whether aging has made these wines more interesting. And I'm not sure that it's just a question of expertise. Most of the winemakers I've spoken with have a long history of working with grenache and understand that it has certain strengths and weaknesses. The beauty of a good straight grenache is how fantastic it can be when it is young. No waiting!

It's worth noting that although a lot of CnP wines may be grenache dominant, there is only Chateau Rayas that makes a straight grenache (too expensive for me, I'm afraid). Beaucastel gets close but the mouvedre does make quite a difference. The fact that virtually all of CnP is a blend seems to indicate that the winemakers are aiming for something different from the grenache that is produced here in Australia. Although I enjoy CnP and Côte-du-Rhone, I think that the Australian grenache wines offer a very attractive alternative. And this has only been so for the past 6-8 years. Before that most grenache was made to keep the alcohol levels low and consequently the wine was much too sweet and one-dimensional. It's in recent times that winemakers have started to come to terms with Australian grenache. To my mind, many have done a terrific job, but it's still a work in progress. For me this makes it all the more interesting.

And I'd be happy if anyone can recommend to me a straight grenache that has some serious aging potential!

Grenache rules!

Tristram Shandy

PS. I agree with Jeremy - the Tscharke grenache is really very good! I'm still on the lookout for the Glaymond El Abuelo (which is by the same producer)

[Mahmoud Ali]

All excellent points Tristam Shandy but I will make just one point. I don't think that the case for Grenache is weakened because most Chateauneuf du Pape producers make blends. By that reasoning one might say the same about Cabernet Sauvignon based on the fact that all Bordeaux chateaux blend other varietals with Cabernet.

I don't have many pure Grenache wines in my cellar but many of them seem to be from the 1998 vintage. I guess you could call me an optimist. I do have a couple of bottles of the1996 Custodian from d'Arenberg and I really should give one of them a try when I get home (I am overseas now in a country that is virtuually dry). I have high hopes for the 1999 Tim Adams 'The Fergus' and that too is reaching it's recommended drinking window if their web site is correct.

Cheers..................Mahmoud.

[chillwrx]

Was at samuels gorge cellar door today - loved the 08 grenache.

Looked for more grenache at the vale but most cellar doors were sold out of what I want or full of posers tasting. Sadly I heard white Port requested three times during the day. Olivers was great, kays was lovely as usual. I was massively impressed by the staff at all the cellar doors as it was obvious I was on a mission and was given exemplary service

My mate has organised a dinner for me tomorrow where he has organised a few great grenaches - an 05 rayas the highlight apparantly but some mid 80's darry's original and plenty of good shiraz. My buys for the day were the 06 reserve shiraz from hardy's and the 05 hj shiraz on top of big purchase from samuels gorge.

Sadly I met a mate of a mate who has had his contract for grapes cut for two years in a row buy the big players and is now making the wine himself. Pleasantly surpised and at 60 bucks a carton good value. Many places were offering the same with differing value offerings.

Overall best cellar door experience was olivers but the rest were packed so it is difficult to judge. Hitting the hills on Tuesday so hopefully quieter then.

[Wayno]

Just about anything from Spinifex for me - a few of which seem to have Grenache present in some capacity.

[griff]

My mate has organised a dinner for me tomorrow where he has organised a few great grenaches - an 05 rayas the highlight apparantly but some mid 80's darry's original and plenty of good shiraz.

Sounds like it will be a great dinner. Would love to hear some thoughts on how it went

cheers

Carl

[jeremy]

By the way, Grenache got knocked about by the heat this vintage in the Barossa (which was otherwise, by all reports, a very good vintage), so if you're wanting to explore the grape in that region then perhaps have a look now.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I just remembered that I have had an old bottle of an all-Grenache wine. It was a 1980 Cannonau di Alghero by Sella & Mosca, a Sardinian wine that is made from Grenache, "Cannonau" being the local name for Grenache. I opened it in about 2008 or 2009.

The wine, which was bought sometime in the late 80's for something like C$5 and change was absolutely delicious. Brick-orange in colour, it was warm and ripe, with ripe roasted tomato and earthy notes. It was so surprisingly good that I kept the bottle. I am far from home so I can't look to see what the alcohol level was.

Grenache can't age? I think not.

Cheers...........Mahmoud.

[pstarr]

Had a bottle of Mansfield 2004 touriga on Friday night, which reminded me that there is grenache planted in Mudgee.

[WineRick]

By the way, Grenache got knocked about by the heat this vintage in the Barossa (which was otherwise, by all reports, a very good vintage), so if you're wanting to explore the grape in that region then perhaps have a look now.

If you got a crop of Grenache in the Barossa this year, it's probably one of the best quality crops in the last 20 years. It was the flowering, and subsequent fruit-set,
that was knocked about last November, by a 2 day burst of heat. Otherwise, if you were lucky, and flowering had already occured, then the near perfect ripening conditions
resulted in fantastic quality - even my grapepickers commented on the flavour and condition of our Grenache crops.

[jeremy]

By the way, Grenache got knocked about by the heat this vintage in the Barossa (which was otherwise, by all reports, a very good vintage), so if you're wanting to explore the grape in that region then perhaps have a look now.

If you got a crop of Grenache in the Barossa this year, it's probably one of the best quality crops in the last 20 years. It was the flowering, and subsequent fruit-set,
that was knocked about last November, by a 2 day burst of heat. Otherwise, if you were lucky, and flowering had already occured, then the near perfect ripening conditions
resulted in fantastic quality - even my grapepickers commented on the flavour and condition of our Grenache crops.

Yes, I just heard that the conditions in November last year meant that good Grenache from 2010 might be harder to find. Apologies for in any way commenting on quality. I didn't intend to.