Parker's Best NZ Producers

[Bick]

FWIW, the latest edition of RP Buyer's Guide (2008) lists 5 producers from NZ that he catergorises as "Outstanding".

If you don't know already which are the 5, do you care to guess?

(If you don't care you needn't feel this thread necessarily demands a rant against RP and all he stands for... )

[GraemeG]

I don't know, but I'd guess
Ata Rangi
Craggy Range
Dry River
Stoneyridge
Te Mata

Are they Parker's selctions or Neal Martin's?
cheers,
Graeme

Er, edited to add - I was thinking of Felton Rd, not Dry River. Hmmm. That makes six...

[Bick]

Are they Parker's selections or Neal Martin's?

Well, they're in Parker's book so I guess he "selected" them, but his selections are presumably based largely on feedback from Neal Martins recent trip. One of his choices certainly seems to confirm that, as its slightly surprising...

You got 3 out the 5 right with your 6 guesses btw.

[SueNZ]

Are they Parker's selctions or Neal Martin's?

Well, technically they are Parker's.
I was talking to a consultant winemaker for one of the Top Five last week and he said that although Neal Martin would have made the selections, Robert Parker is now a brand, as a fashion designer is a brand. He said you don't hear about the fashions designer's worker who may have actually created the design, you hear about it in the context of the designer brand. He made that comparison, which I found interesting - but quite true.
Another wine producer in the Top Five referred to the wines being picked by one of Robert Parker's reviewers, without mentioning the reviewer's name. It was all about Robert Parker.
And when you think about it, if you don't subscribe to the Wine Advocate magazine or to erobertparker - how many of the Robert Parker writer/reviewers would you know?

Cheers,
Sue

One of his choices certainly seems to confirm that, as its slightly surprising...

PS as for the slightly surprising inclusion, they do have a long history and if you were privy to taste a line up of their Pinot Noirs and Rieslings, I think you may understand. It's just that they don't fly within the radar sensors all that much these days.

In one of the PR's it gave the criteria for the 'outstanding rating'.

"<I>Those few growers/producers who have received five star ratings are those who make the world’s finest wines, and they have been selected for this rating for two reasons: first, because they make the greatest wine of their particular viticultural region, and second, because they are remarkably consistent and reliable even in mediocre and poor vintages.</I>"

That said, I too am surprised that two wineries from such close proximity - two that could be seen as the same 'greater' viticultural region in the context of NZ's regions, are included.

Cheers,
Sue

[Craig(NZ)]

personally, (bick - not trying to be an ass or start a anti parker rant it is common with all overseas based nz wine opinion i think) but i cant see why people would take this seriously(or things like nz wines in WS top 100 etc)

why would you listen to someone that occassionally tries the odd kiwi wine on a fly in fly out basis from a limited subset?? Why would we care over over a home grown nz critic that does it every day year in and year out with basically every available wine?

Nice marketing tool for wineries to huff and puff that 'lord parker' loves them but at the end of the day meaningless in terms of really getting a full picture. why would someone care about this over cooper, campbell etc etc.

When Parker in the past dismissed NZ wines wineries here dismissed his opinion as ramblings. Now we are in favour with him so his opinion is close to our heart. Rather expedient I would have thought

my 2 cents

[Bick]

why would you listen to someone that occassionally tries the odd kiwi wine on a fly in fly out basis from a limited subset??

I just thought it was mildly interesting Craig, not suggesting anyone should adjust their own view or change their drinking habits. There's a difference I guess between "listening" to a critic and noting their view. As it happens, if I were to put together a list myself, it wouldn't be quite the same, but it wouldn't be far off.

Sue - I take your point, but I have tasted the last few years of their pinot and I had their riesling a couple years back. Good to be sure, but I don't personally place them that high...

...I'll reveal the top 5 shortly, but anyone else want to try and guess the slightly surprising one?

[Craig(NZ)]

rippon in in front of wineries such as dry river and neudorf?

says it all really

[Bick]

That's stolen my thunder , but nonethless I will soldier on and reveal the top 5 in RP's opinion:

Ata Rangi, Felton Road, Pegasus Bay, Rippon, Te Mata

[KMP]

personally, (bick - not trying to be an ass or start a anti parker rant it is common with all overseas based nz wine opinion i think) but i cant see why people would take this seriously(or things like nz wines in WS top 100 etc)

why would you listen to someone that occassionally tries the odd kiwi wine on a fly in fly out basis from a limited subset?? Why would we care over over a home grown nz critic that does it every day year in and year out with basically every available wine?

Nice marketing tool for wineries to huff and puff that 'lord parker' loves them but at the end of the day meaningless in terms of really getting a full picture. why would someone care about this over cooper, campbell etc etc.

When Parker in the past dismissed NZ wines wineries here dismissed his opinion as ramblings. Now we are in favour with him so his opinion is close to our heart. Rather expedient I would have thought

my 2 cents

Craig,

I can tell why you some will find this of interest. This country of 300+ million (of which I only recently became a citizen) is probably the most insular place in the (wine) world. Hence there will be more than a few who will only know New Zealand wine by what they see on the shelves of wine stores and supermarkets. If the big five are smart they will take advantage of Parker's support especialy as imports of New Zealand wine, while small by Aussie standards, have been increasing recently. I would not be surprised if a New Zealand grown Grateful Palate got into the act over the next few years and started pushing NZ pinot, SB, sryah and riesling of varying price ranges.

Mike

[Craig(NZ)]

Ata Rangi, Felton Road, Pegasus Bay, Rippon, Te Mata

yeah there definitely is an odd one out there

the big five are smart they will take advantage of Parker's support especialy as imports of New Zealand wine,

If I visit New York would i be best to consult a friend who has been there once or a friend that lives there regarding things to do, places to eat, where to shop etc??

[KMP]

the big five are smart they will take advantage of Parker's support especialy as imports of New Zealand wine,

If I visit New York would i be best to consult a friend who has been there once or a friend that lives there regarding things to do, places to eat, where to shop etc??

Craig,

I understand your point but all you have to do is look at the influence Parker has had on Australian wine to realize that many wine consumers in the US are not that logical.

Mike

[Craig(NZ)]

I understand your point but all you have to do is look at the influence Parker has had on Australian wine to realize that many wine consumers in the US are not that logical.

Yes, totally understand that. Just penning the observation again

[Loztralia]

I was kind of enquiring about this issue in my post "How do you keep up?" from a few weeks back. I can totally see Craig's point about trusting locals ahead of tourists (to put it crudely) but let's say you're a moderately involved US wine drinker.

If you have any international focus at all you'll probably be trying to keep abreast of vintages from dozens of wineries in France alone, plus the rest of the old world and the new world big guns like Aussie. I'm guessing here that unless you're a hardcore aficionado or someone who has already developed a niche interest in Kiwi wines (I believe Peregrine is owned at least in part by a futures trader in Chicago) how realistic is it to expect any more than a rough approximation of a handful of "top" wineries in NZ?

And if you accept that then it's also not really fair to quibble too much about the content of that top five; if the majority of US punters are never going to see more than five Kiwi wineries they won't be too badly served by that list and at the end of the day that's really what it's for, surely?

BTW, this is meant to be a discussion point rather than a rabid disagreement...

[Craig(NZ)]

Loz

All good points and id like to add another to play devils advocate to my own argument.

US consumer palate vs NZ consumer palate. Maybe it is right for US consumers to listen to one of their own with one of their palates??

We all know for example that generally most aussies are more forgiving of alcohol and jamminess in a red. NZ's are more forgiving of herbal characters etc etc

However when totalling up the arguments I still see a gap. Id still far far rather take a heads up on NZ wine from Sue Courtney than Robert Parker

[SueNZ]

However when totalling up the arguments I still see a gap. Id still far far rather take a heads up on NZ wine from Sue Courtney than Robert Parker

Geez, Craig I don't know what to say.

[Bick]

Well, that begs the question, Sue - which NZ wineries make your top 5?

[Craig(NZ)]

for me, id need to think it over but considering the success and consitancy of a total range of wines in portfolio and off the top of my head id start discussions with:

Te Mata
Neudorf
Dry River
Fromm La Strada
Ata Rangi

Special Mentions Villa Maria, Pegasus Bay

[Loztralia]

Loz

All good points and id like to add another to play devils advocate to my own argument.

US consumer palate vs NZ consumer palate. Maybe it is right for US consumers to listen to one of their own with one of their palates??

And to broaden the discussion yet further, I wonder the extent to which a prominent pundit leads a market. We all know about "Parker followers", but think about it another way to people just dumbly buying what he recommends.

If you're a wine newbie in the US who has heard about RP, you buy one of his books as an intro and try a bunch of his favourites. If you don't have a "Parker palate" you might think "this wine malarkey's a waste of time and money" and not go any further. If you immediately like his favourites, you are more inclined to stay in the game.

This is even more true when you consider what an acquired taste wine can be. If you're not very sophisticated straight away, as most people aren't, you've got to figure it's worth persevering more with wines that someone who "knows their stuff" likes - so over time your taste develops to recognise those styles as objectively "good".

Perhaps this is why the oft given advice "listen to the critics but make up your own mind" seems to be so frequently ignored - because people learn wine by learning to pick up on the things certain critics favour.

Just my 2c.

[SueNZ]

Well, that begs the question, Sue - which NZ wineries make your top 5?

Crikey! I don't think I could settle on just five - there would be a multitude of 4th equals if that was the case. There are many outstanding producers in New Zealand and lots of other factors will come into the decision - like how many of their wines I've actually drunk and over how many years. Wine is more than just ranking - it's about the enjoyment the wines give you when you drink them and the wines you want to buy and cellar. There is always a glow of satisfaction when open a wine you have cellared and it is so mind-blowing when you drink it, but at the same time you experience slight feelings of disappointment because it's your last bottle and you wish you had bought more at the time. That said I hardly buy wines to cellar any more - most of the ones I like, except for some Rieslings, are too expensive.

I'd have Villa Maria in there with its family of companies - it really is the complete all rounder.
I love Kumeu River and its Chardonnays, to a lesser extent its Pinot Gris and while I liked their Pinot Noir years ago, the 2007 vintage really is top form.
Te Mata has a complete package with Chardonnay, Bdx blends, Viognier, Syrah and Hawkes Bay Sauvignon Blanc.

South Island-based wineries are harder to separate but in the contest would be Saint Clair, Neudorf, Pegasus Bay and Felton Road although I have a soft spot for Gibbston Valley too.

Gosh, and I haven't a winery from Martinborough and I don't know if I could choose between Dry River and Ata Rangi so they would both have to be there.

It's hard.

[Craig(NZ)]

way way too politically correct reply sue (too many friends in the industry???)

cummon top 5. be cruel make a list

[Mahmoud Ali]

If Parker’s current wine buying guide is anything like his past guides then the so-called top five is not so much a list as a ranking. Like Langton’s he rates producers of a region or variety as Outstanding (5 stars), Excellent (4 stars) and Good (3 stars). Readers will, therefore, see more than just the five “Outstanding” producers of New Zealand Pinot Noirs but also the Excellent and Good.

Actually I think it’s good to see that Parker has finally decided to rate or rank New Zealand’s wines. He’s come a long way since his 1989-90 Wine Buyer’s Guide. It had only a single page on New Zealand and had this to say about Pinot Noir: “I do not have any enthusiasm for New Zealand Pinot Noir or Gewurztramminer, but the Germanic varietals Muller-Thurgau and Riesling look to have potential in the hands of wineries such as Selaks, Delegats, and Collard Brothers.”

The 6th Edition of the Wine Buyer’s Guide (2002) also had a single page devoted to New Zealand wines. Here things get better; “Pinot Noir will most likely prove to be New Zealand’s red saviour (as Sauvignon Blanc is for it’s whites). Presently, it’s vines are far too young to predict accurately the potential of the wines, yet it is clear that structurally New Zealand’s Pinots are the closest thing to Burgundy any New World wine region has come. Recently, the high-production, poor-quality clones that made up the vast majority of New Zealand’s Pinot vineyards have been replaced with excellent clones from Burgundy. As these vines age, it will be interesting to see if the resulting wines acquire the depth of fruit, complexity, and ageworthiness required to compete with Burgundies. For the other red wines, there are only two words to keep in mind--caveat emptor!” No wineries were mentioned.

If the 8th Edition has a ranking of Pinots, then that certainly is progress. I wonder, does he have a ranking for other new Zealand varieties?

[By the way, in the ‘89-90 Guide, Parker rates only four “Outstanding” producers of Cabernet and Shiraz: Henschke, Penfolds, Petaluma and Chateau Tahbilk. By 2002, in the 6th Edition, there are 45 “Outstanding” wines and of the previous four, only Penfold’s remained with their Grange and Bin 707].

Cheers....Mahmoud

[Grant]

Well, that begs the question, Sue - which NZ wineries make your top 5?

Crikey! I don't think I could settle on just five - there would be a multitude of 4th equals if that was the case. There are many outstanding producers in New Zealand and lots of other factors will come into the decision - like how many of their wines I've actually drunk and over how many years. Wine is more than just ranking - it's about the enjoyment the wines give you when you drink them and the wines you want to buy and cellar. There is always a glow of satisfaction when open a wine you have cellared and it is so mind-blowing when you drink it, but at the same time you experience slight feelings of disappointment because it's your last bottle and you wish you had bought more at the time. That said I hardly buy wines to cellar any more - most of the ones I like, except for some Rieslings, are too expensive.

I'd have Villa Maria in there with its family of companies - it really is the complete all rounder.
I love Kumeu River and its Chardonnays, to a lesser extent its Pinot Gris and while I liked their Pinot Noir years ago, the 2007 vintage really is top form.
Te Mata has a complete package with Chardonnay, Bdx blends, Viognier, Syrah and Hawkes Bay Sauvignon Blanc.

South Island-based wineries are harder to separate but in the contest would be Saint Clair, Neudorf, Pegasus Bay and Felton Road although I have a soft spot for Gibbston Valley too.

Gosh, and I haven't a winery from Martinborough and I don't know if I could choose between Dry River and Ata Rangi so they would both have to be there.

It's hard.

No Craggy Range?

[SueNZ]

No Craggy Range?

No - I've not had enough experience across the board with their wines - with was one of my criteria in my preamble. I've never tasted that chardonnay with the French name, for example.
I really like their Te Muna wines, especially the PN and I thought the 2005 Sophia and GG Merlot were simply stunning and more approachable than the 06's.
So while they rank in my individual Top Ten producers in two variety categories, they are not in my overall Top Five/Ten/Twelve.

[Bick]

If the 8th Edition has a ranking of Pinots, then that certainly is progress. I wonder, does he have a ranking for other new Zealand varieties?

I don't think he's ranked pinot's Mahmoud, he's just ranked wine producers of any variety (Te Mata don't make a pinot).

[Mahmoud Ali]

Bick wrote: "I don't think he's ranked pinot's Mahmoud, he's just ranked wine producers of any variety (Te Mata don't make a pinot)."


Okay, I now see that from your original post, thanks. In the chapter on Australia, Parker's 2002 Guide has separate rankings (Outstanding, Excellent and Good) for producers of reds, Chardonnay, Riesling, Dry Sauvignon and Semillon, and fortified wines.

Reading about the Trinations in a separate post I noticed that the same 2002 Edition has but a half-page devoted to South African wines.

Mahmoud.