Finding value in BDX
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ken gillman
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:51 pm
Finding value in BDX
Having been raised in Europe on Bdx etc am trying to find value, just opened Citran 1996 and Tabilk 1997. Anyone like to guess which got the vote?
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Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
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ken gillman
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:51 pm
Hi, Edmonton Canada?
Well, the Chateau Citran should be the most "Bordeaux-like" no?
Yes, I did not mean to be enigmatic: I was approaching it from the position of someone who has now lived in Aus for 25 yrs, appreciates Aus Cab & blends, and is revisiting Bdx trying to find value, and drinkability.
So I'm just comparing Cabs and asking myself, am I going to try and buy any more Bdx or not.
I have various Bdx, mostly modestly priced, and acquired after research and recommendations by reputable sources. I find many of them to be fairly average. The Citran was rather light fruit of no particular character or charm, a lot of bitter stalky green tea tannin, little to recommend it = $ 36 cost, Tabilk= $ 14 v pleasant good late summer berry fruit, not overipe, balanced tannins, a thoroughly pleasant little wine.
Well, the Chateau Citran should be the most "Bordeaux-like" no?
Yes, I did not mean to be enigmatic: I was approaching it from the position of someone who has now lived in Aus for 25 yrs, appreciates Aus Cab & blends, and is revisiting Bdx trying to find value, and drinkability.
So I'm just comparing Cabs and asking myself, am I going to try and buy any more Bdx or not.
I have various Bdx, mostly modestly priced, and acquired after research and recommendations by reputable sources. I find many of them to be fairly average. The Citran was rather light fruit of no particular character or charm, a lot of bitter stalky green tea tannin, little to recommend it = $ 36 cost, Tabilk= $ 14 v pleasant good late summer berry fruit, not overipe, balanced tannins, a thoroughly pleasant little wine.
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Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
Yes, Edmonton Canada.
I haven't ever had Chateau Citran but it is a minor estate and used to cost much less when I was first buying Bordeaux. Wines in my cellar now cost so much I couldn't afford them today. I'm in your corner, I would rather three bottles of the Tahbilk Cabernet than a bottle of Citran. When I was last in Australia I found the 2002 Tahbilk Cab to be excellent. And very age-worthy. I wish I could get it here in Edmonton.
One other thing, if you have other Bordeaux, particularly from a good vintage I suggest cellaring them a bit longer.
Cheers...........Mahmoud
I haven't ever had Chateau Citran but it is a minor estate and used to cost much less when I was first buying Bordeaux. Wines in my cellar now cost so much I couldn't afford them today. I'm in your corner, I would rather three bottles of the Tahbilk Cabernet than a bottle of Citran. When I was last in Australia I found the 2002 Tahbilk Cab to be excellent. And very age-worthy. I wish I could get it here in Edmonton.
One other thing, if you have other Bordeaux, particularly from a good vintage I suggest cellaring them a bit longer.
Cheers...........Mahmoud
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ken gillman
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:51 pm
"if you have other Bordeaux, particularly from a good vintage I suggest cellaring them a bit longer."
Yes ... but! I am going to call that the 'French excuse'. My (modest) experience is that if it is good (balanced) young it may get better, if it isn't it won't. There seems to be an idea that excess tannin (and other faults) will lessen w age; what is your experience? Looking at my database all I have of older stuff is: Phelan Segur, 1994 & Meyney, Chateaux 1996.
Yes ... but! I am going to call that the 'French excuse'. My (modest) experience is that if it is good (balanced) young it may get better, if it isn't it won't. There seems to be an idea that excess tannin (and other faults) will lessen w age; what is your experience? Looking at my database all I have of older stuff is: Phelan Segur, 1994 & Meyney, Chateaux 1996.
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Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
You are right about the "balanced" thing. A wine in balance will change with time, losing colour, gaining complexity, and softening tannins. However, "faults" in a wine will never disappear.
Every wine is different. With age the fruit declines and at the same time complexity increases, with mature bouquet and flavours emerging. There is no way to know how quickly or slowly these things will take place in each individual wine or vintage. Its a gamble, but an educated one, one that wine critics or experienced drinkers make.
Interestingly enough one of my biggest surprises was with a Tahbilk Cabernet. Many years ago I tasted a young 1982 Tahbilk Cab. It was purple-red, fruity and loaded with mouth puckering tannins. The consensus was that it would keep at least 10 years (the label said 6-8 years). About 10 years later I opened a bottle only to find a dry, dusty, wine with a wall of tannins. My first thought was that I should have obeyed the label recommendation, at least there would have been some fruit.
Every few years I opened a bottle but the result was the same, a dry, tannic wine devoid of fruit. I came to the conclusion that the wine must never have been balanced, not enough original fruit to support the tannins.
In 2003, when fully 21 years old, I opened another bottle (yes, I had bought a bunch of them) and, to my surprise, the fruit was back! The wine was showing itself to be a lovely old cabernet, displaying a lovely balance of ripe fruit and soft residual tannins. Now I regret having opened the other bottles prematurely. It seems Jeremy Oliver got it right because my 2003 edition of OnWine has the drinking window of the 1982 Tahbilk as 2012+. You just never know.
On the French side, I recently came across a 1975 Chateau Calon, an estate on the fringe of Bordeaux. The literature on the estate suggested a good producer of wines to drink young. The wine, now 33 years old, turned out to a medium-bodied wine, light of fruit, but with a most beguiling Bordeaux bouquet. My friend picked it out immediately (it was served blind). The next morning we bought the remaining 5 bottles.
Myself, I have a few bottles of the 1985 Meyney and the 1989 Phelan Segur. I've opened a bottle of the Meyney in about 2002/3 and didn't think it was drinking well so I decided to wait. The Phelan Segur from '89 was delicious when young so I have high hopes for it as an older wine so I'm leaving it alone.
A lot depends on what you like. I like old, mature wines so I gamble quite a bit, after all, its cheaper to buy young and cellar than to buy old not knowing how it was stored.
Hope I haven't been too long-winded.
Cheers...........Mahmoud.
Every wine is different. With age the fruit declines and at the same time complexity increases, with mature bouquet and flavours emerging. There is no way to know how quickly or slowly these things will take place in each individual wine or vintage. Its a gamble, but an educated one, one that wine critics or experienced drinkers make.
Interestingly enough one of my biggest surprises was with a Tahbilk Cabernet. Many years ago I tasted a young 1982 Tahbilk Cab. It was purple-red, fruity and loaded with mouth puckering tannins. The consensus was that it would keep at least 10 years (the label said 6-8 years). About 10 years later I opened a bottle only to find a dry, dusty, wine with a wall of tannins. My first thought was that I should have obeyed the label recommendation, at least there would have been some fruit.
Every few years I opened a bottle but the result was the same, a dry, tannic wine devoid of fruit. I came to the conclusion that the wine must never have been balanced, not enough original fruit to support the tannins.
In 2003, when fully 21 years old, I opened another bottle (yes, I had bought a bunch of them) and, to my surprise, the fruit was back! The wine was showing itself to be a lovely old cabernet, displaying a lovely balance of ripe fruit and soft residual tannins. Now I regret having opened the other bottles prematurely. It seems Jeremy Oliver got it right because my 2003 edition of OnWine has the drinking window of the 1982 Tahbilk as 2012+. You just never know.
On the French side, I recently came across a 1975 Chateau Calon, an estate on the fringe of Bordeaux. The literature on the estate suggested a good producer of wines to drink young. The wine, now 33 years old, turned out to a medium-bodied wine, light of fruit, but with a most beguiling Bordeaux bouquet. My friend picked it out immediately (it was served blind). The next morning we bought the remaining 5 bottles.
Myself, I have a few bottles of the 1985 Meyney and the 1989 Phelan Segur. I've opened a bottle of the Meyney in about 2002/3 and didn't think it was drinking well so I decided to wait. The Phelan Segur from '89 was delicious when young so I have high hopes for it as an older wine so I'm leaving it alone.
A lot depends on what you like. I like old, mature wines so I gamble quite a bit, after all, its cheaper to buy young and cellar than to buy old not knowing how it was stored.
Hope I haven't been too long-winded.
Cheers...........Mahmoud.
I've never had a Citran but I had a 96 Ch Lanessan a year or so a go, and it was gently sliding into old age. I'm drinking 98 Tahbilks now, and they are OK but nothing spectacular.
I have also had an old Tahbilk epiphany, i think it was a 76 a few years ago. Amazing for its age.
Value in Bordeaux seems ot be getting hard to find, but I'm told there are a few non classed growths from 05 that are the goods - Ch Mille Roses & Ch Charmail are now resting comfortably in the cellar. But even so, $35 and $40 (price for these) buys a fair bit of Aus Cabernet as well...
I have also had an old Tahbilk epiphany, i think it was a 76 a few years ago. Amazing for its age.
Value in Bordeaux seems ot be getting hard to find, but I'm told there are a few non classed growths from 05 that are the goods - Ch Mille Roses & Ch Charmail are now resting comfortably in the cellar. But even so, $35 and $40 (price for these) buys a fair bit of Aus Cabernet as well...
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ken gillman
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:51 pm
I've never had a Citran
Hello Wizz, you are not that far south of us, I'll bring you a citran next time I visit Bris! You may not thank me for that!
Unfortunately I have a few left still!
I have also had an old Tahbilk epiphany, i think it was a 76 a few years ago. Amazing for its age.
The comparison was coincidental, in that I wanted a second bott, and the Tabilk was just there in the 'to be drunk up section' of the cellar, so I grabbed it.
a few non classed growths from 05 that are the goods
Yes, I am giving red bdx one more chance, and have some EP Ch Charmail (and others) which should arrive v soon. But what I mean is this-- for those of us who cannot stretch to the undeniably better stuff in the far distance beyond $100 a bott you might hope to get a drinkable wine, to make a change from our Aus stuff, without feeling you've been done over like a kipper. Hence the 1996 Citran, 1996 is a 9/10 rated vintage, Citran is well spoken of 'pace setting ... long run of good vintages' (Hugh Johnson no less), so one might reasonably hope for a decent little wine. In my opinion, not so. Its poor, weedy, over-extracted, bitter stalky over-brewed green tea tannin tannins. Maybe the Japanese owners were trying to emulate green tea with red grapes. If anyone else has had this please tell me what you think.
Maybe I have just lost my ability to appreciate Fr wines. My take is that Bdx is mostly a giant confidence trick where the wine journalists get seduced into praising wines of modest merit. Bdx production must be around 10 million hectoliters PA by now, only a tiny fraction of that is quality stuff.
But even so, $35 and $40 (price for these) buys a fair bit of Aus Cabernet as well...[/quote]
Sure does, and that's where much of my budget goes. Is Charmail on sale yet and for how much?
Hello Wizz, you are not that far south of us, I'll bring you a citran next time I visit Bris! You may not thank me for that!
Unfortunately I have a few left still!
I have also had an old Tahbilk epiphany, i think it was a 76 a few years ago. Amazing for its age.
The comparison was coincidental, in that I wanted a second bott, and the Tabilk was just there in the 'to be drunk up section' of the cellar, so I grabbed it.
a few non classed growths from 05 that are the goods
Yes, I am giving red bdx one more chance, and have some EP Ch Charmail (and others) which should arrive v soon. But what I mean is this-- for those of us who cannot stretch to the undeniably better stuff in the far distance beyond $100 a bott you might hope to get a drinkable wine, to make a change from our Aus stuff, without feeling you've been done over like a kipper. Hence the 1996 Citran, 1996 is a 9/10 rated vintage, Citran is well spoken of 'pace setting ... long run of good vintages' (Hugh Johnson no less), so one might reasonably hope for a decent little wine. In my opinion, not so. Its poor, weedy, over-extracted, bitter stalky over-brewed green tea tannin tannins. Maybe the Japanese owners were trying to emulate green tea with red grapes. If anyone else has had this please tell me what you think.
Maybe I have just lost my ability to appreciate Fr wines. My take is that Bdx is mostly a giant confidence trick where the wine journalists get seduced into praising wines of modest merit. Bdx production must be around 10 million hectoliters PA by now, only a tiny fraction of that is quality stuff.
But even so, $35 and $40 (price for these) buys a fair bit of Aus Cabernet as well...[/quote]
Sure does, and that's where much of my budget goes. Is Charmail on sale yet and for how much?
Hi Ken,
Charmail has arrived in Brisbane, I saw many many cases with my own eyes on Saturday.
I tend to agree with you on Bordeaux, value is making it tough for me. Having said that, I'm happy to pay the premium for Burgundy over Aus pinot - to me there is a difference. But some of the 05 prices (for Rousseau and the like) made me baulk.
AB
Charmail has arrived in Brisbane, I saw many many cases with my own eyes on Saturday.
I tend to agree with you on Bordeaux, value is making it tough for me. Having said that, I'm happy to pay the premium for Burgundy over Aus pinot - to me there is a difference. But some of the 05 prices (for Rousseau and the like) made me baulk.
AB
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ken gillman
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:51 pm
Charmail has arrived in Brisbane, I saw many many cases with my own eyes on Saturday.
How much?
pay the premium for Burgundy over Aus pinot - to me there is a difference. But some of the 05 prices (for Rousseau and the like) made me baulk.
Yes, but that can be a lottery too. I, and my wife even more so, am persuaded by some of the NZ pinots, especially on a $ for $ basis.
How much?
pay the premium for Burgundy over Aus pinot - to me there is a difference. But some of the 05 prices (for Rousseau and the like) made me baulk.
Yes, but that can be a lottery too. I, and my wife even more so, am persuaded by some of the NZ pinots, especially on a $ for $ basis.
ken gillman wrote:Charmail has arrived in Brisbane, I saw many many cases with my own eyes on Saturday.
How much?
pay the premium for Burgundy over Aus pinot - to me there is a difference. But some of the 05 prices (for Rousseau and the like) made me baulk.
Yes, but that can be a lottery too. I, and my wife even more so, am persuaded by some of the NZ pinots, especially on a $ for $ basis.
$40 for the Charmail I think. The retailer in question must have had 50 cases of the stuff.
Agreed that Burg can be a lottery, but with a lot of research (and some trial and error), there are ways to improve your odds.
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Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
There is no "myth" about Bordeaux wines. It all come down to wine style and preferences. Bordeaux is typically a medium-bodied wine and may not be to everyone's liking, especially if they are keen on full-bodied, extracted, highly fruited wines. By the same token there are people who prefer lighter, medium-bodied wines and are not keen on the "Aussie-style".
In a book by Alice Feirling called "The Battle for Wine and Love: Or How I Saved the World from Parkerization" she states in a chapter on syrah that there is only one Australian shiraz that she likes and to emphasize the point she says ".....count 'em, just one...."
Robert Parker has no more created a myth about Australian shiraz than have British writers a myth about Bordeaux. Perhaps they may have increased demand for their favourite icons and driven prices higher but there should be no mistaking the quality and longevity of many Bordeaux wines. Perhaps Austalian wines don't have the same history but that is only a matter of time, particularly if you cellar the right ones.
I'm a big fan of Bordeaux wines but that doesn't stop me from cellaring Australian wines, cabernet, shiraz and the ultimate Australian style, the cab-shiraz.
Cheers............Mahmoud.
In a book by Alice Feirling called "The Battle for Wine and Love: Or How I Saved the World from Parkerization" she states in a chapter on syrah that there is only one Australian shiraz that she likes and to emphasize the point she says ".....count 'em, just one...."
Robert Parker has no more created a myth about Australian shiraz than have British writers a myth about Bordeaux. Perhaps they may have increased demand for their favourite icons and driven prices higher but there should be no mistaking the quality and longevity of many Bordeaux wines. Perhaps Austalian wines don't have the same history but that is only a matter of time, particularly if you cellar the right ones.
I'm a big fan of Bordeaux wines but that doesn't stop me from cellaring Australian wines, cabernet, shiraz and the ultimate Australian style, the cab-shiraz.
Cheers............Mahmoud.