Maximising Cellaring Conditions

[Cables]

I would like to ask the learned members a question regarding cellaring conditions and how to maximise the output of return.

I have an indoor, underground cellar that has concrete walls and floors and timber lined roof - (beams holding up the upper floor boards).

I have noticed during this summer, that on the hottest of days, even the cellar reached a temperature of 20' and humidity got to as high as 77.
(I have a min/max - temp/hum - thinghi)

I am led to believe that this is too high and could cause damage to the wines in the cellar. Although that was the highest of the temps/hum. it wouldn't have been the average, which I believe would have been reasonably lower. Being underground, it is a fairly stable temp. -

Has anyone tried "insulating the roof of a cellar with bats that are say held up by particle board" or is the expense of a proper air-con system the only appropriate solution. The cost of the wines far exceeds what I started out to spend, so it has become a serious issue for me now. But having said that, I don't really want to spend $5,000 either.

On a similar topic, does anybody have a magical number of how many bottles one should stop at when cellaring? - I know it is a formula of how much one drinks, by number of years, etc. etc. - Any thoughts?
Has anyone noticed that they just can't stop buying because you know that it will be a great wine to have? - Or is that just being a tad greedy?

[Red Bigot]

Cables,

The 20C temp is a little high for long term cellaring, so you may need at least insulation if you intend to cellar wine for more than 8-10 years. Or you can just leave it as is, I've had quite a few reds in very good condition that have been stored more than 5 years in a Canberra passive cellar under a house, where the ambient temp varied from 10-22C annually and 4C or more daily.

77% humidity is Ok, much more and you may get a few mouldy labels.

Are you sure the heat is coming through the roof/floor? Do any of the walls get much sunshine? If so this is a big source of the heat as it gradually works through the brickwork, you may need to insulate a wall or two as well. Batts between the beams can be held up with wire mesh or a complete ceiling using plasterboard etc.

You can install a standard domestic/commercial split unit aircon to control temp for under $1500 (unless the underground area is open), that will reduce the humidity as well, maybe too much, I use an evaporative cooler to keep up humidity in summer. If you go down this route, make sure you get a model that will cool down to about 15-16C.

Have a look at www.cellaringwine.com and consider purchasing Tyson's cellaring wine book.

[Red Bigot]

On a similar topic, does anybody have a magical number of how many bottles one should stop at when cellaring? - I know it is a formula of how much one drinks, by number of years, etc. etc. - Any thoughts?
Has anyone noticed that they just can't stop buying because you know that it will be a great wine to have? - Or is that just being a tad greedy?

I'm sure there are plenty of formulae based on the average number of bottles you drink in a year x the average number of years you cellar the wines you buy, less an allowance for buying and drinking new wines to try, etc, etc. It's a very individual thing I find, but more important is what you buy, not how much you buy, there is always something new and good to try if you run out of older mature wines.

When you get to an age (as I am myself) where impending retirement (or semi-retirement) is a consideration, I have now achieved my aim to have the equivalent of 10 years drinking (reds) in the cellar, I know I'll not be short of a good red and only need pick the eyes out of the new releases in good vintages to keep the cellar maintained for the future.

If you are fairly new to cellaring, this is my wine-buying strategy, there may be something useful for you in it: http://users.tpg.com.au/handreck/RB-BS.htm

[Guest]

Thanks Brian

Cellaringwine is a great site that I haven't visited before. I'll do lots of reading and post some thoughts for the forum.

I'd say though that the insulation is probably the easiest solution as yesterday when the temp hit 41', it maxed out in the cellar at 20.2, so as most of the bottles are racked around the bottom of all the walls, bottle temp should not have risen above 16-17. (I hope). That should allow for reasonable medium to longer term cellaring for most of the wines and with the improvement of the insulation, my desires appeased.

In regards to the amount of bottles to keep, I'll tell you that the biggest problem that has arisen is that as my tastes have developed, so to has the natural desire to drink better quality wines. My orignal quaffers like the Robertson's Well, Punter Corner or say 01 Rosemount Traditional are constantly being overlooked for bottles like the Michael Shiraz, Mt Edelstone's, Mitolo's and alike. - I think I'll just give all the quaffers I don't like as much as presents to the unsuspecting.

[TORB]

:)

My original quaffers like the Robertson's Well, Punter Corner or say 01 Rosemount Traditional are constantly being overlooked for bottles like the Michael Shiraz, Mt Edelstone's, Mitolo's and alike. - I think I'll just give all the quaffers I don't like as much as presents to the unsuspecting.

One persons 'quaffers' is another persons 'up market drop' or special occasion wine; most of us are pretty fortunate to drink the wines we do on a daily basis, something we should not take for granted. But I know what you are getting at.

[Cables]

Yeah, the other problem is having lunch at good restaurants with people who are not really wine affectionados (correct spelling??). Then having to drink wines that taste like crap or syrup because no one is prepared to spend the money on a decent wine that generally costs $100 + a bottle.

And then when you are with the right people, lunch costs $250 a head.

You can't win either way..

[Rob]

Yeah, the other problem is having lunch at good restaurants with people who are not really wine affectionados (correct spelling??). Then having to drink wines that taste like crap or syrup because no one is prepared to spend the money on a decent wine that generally costs $100 + a bottle.

And then when you are with the right people, lunch costs $250 a head.

You can't win either way..

That's why I have form a wine club with a few very good friend who appreciate fine wines and fine foods. We regularly go out to restaurants, tasting wines, exchange notes and thoughts, and go to auctions or split orders to get cheaper price. It has worked very successfully and more people are wanting to be part of the circle. We do keep a very strict condition, not everyone who drink wine can be part of the group and at the same time we don't want it to be too big. It has been three years now and I have tasted more fine wine than I can ever dreamd of if I was by myself.

[Cellargeek]

Does anyone know how a tin shed with "R2" insulation and an air conditioner would go?

Is there much difference between R2 and R3? Acutally, what "R" would a brick wall be?

Does Tyson's book have the answers to these questions?

Thanks.

[Cellargeek]

Guest,

I take your point about buying the book - i'll do that today.....

What is wrong with the formatting of the TN on my site...?
I am genuinely interested as I thought the formatting was ok.

Thanks.

[TORB]

Cellargeek,

I just had a look at your site and your TN and general layout looks fine to me, easy to navigate and read.

I wouldn't worry about "guests" negative comments. That person frequently has nothing to say unless it mentions others people personal deficiencies, errors or things they don't like. They are just trying to get you to rise to the bait.

[ChrisH]

In regards to the amount of bottles to keep, I'll tell you that the biggest problem that has arisen is that as my tastes have developed, so to has the natural desire to drink better quality wines. My orignal quaffers like the Robertson's Well, Punter Corner or say 01 Rosemount Traditional are constantly being overlooked for bottles like the Michael Shiraz, Mt Edelstone's, Mitolo's and alike.

I'm thinking as I read this, how many other people can relate to the problem - lots I reckon !

regards
Chris

[simm]

In regards to the amount of bottles to keep, I'll tell you that the biggest problem that has arisen is that as my tastes have developed, so to has the natural desire to drink better quality wines. My orignal quaffers like the Robertson's Well, Punter Corner or say 01 Rosemount Traditional are constantly being overlooked for bottles like the Michael Shiraz, Mt Edelstone's, Mitolo's and alike.

I'm thinking as I read this, how many other people can relate to the problem - lots I reckon !

regards
Chris

Count me in on that Chris!

You back already Ric, or this an outland posting?

cheers,

[TORB]

Hi Simm,

It was a great trip! I am back and tasted about 200 wines, some fabulous ones and very few poor ones. The story (hopefully) will start going up next week in chapters.

Some good buys too.

[Colin Rule]

Hi. The way to go with insulation is to use a combination of R2 polyester batts (you don't want itchy fibre-glass) and a product called air-cell, which is a foil blanket. Put the batts in between the ceiling (floor) joists and use the air-cell as a lining to hold the batts in place. Use a hand staple gun and 10mm staples to attach the air-cell to the joists. Really easy, quite cheap and looks really good. The air-cell also acts as a moisture barrier to stop condensation & moisture getting to the batts. It will help to some degree with temp now, but if you put in air-con it will make the whole system more efficient. If you want a photo of how it looks give me a hoi. Cheers Colin

[Cables]

Hi Colin

Thanks very much for the information regarding the R2 batts and the air-cell wiring. That is exactly what I will do. Sounds relatively easy, (even for me) and the added attraction of some aesthetic appeal.

Q. What temp. difference do you think it will make?

I have yet to experience the cellar peaking above 21' even on a string of near 40' days. Would you expect say 3 or 4 degrees less. If so, its a pretty good result for a minimal outlay.

Love to see the photos if you have some. Can you post them on this site?

[simm]

Hi Simm,

It was a great trip! I am back and tasted about 200 wines, some fabulous ones and very few poor ones. The story (hopefully) will start going up next week in chapters.

Some good buys too.

Eeeexcellent!. Can't wait for the write-ups.

cheers Ric,

[Colin Rule]

Cables, I have got together some photos for you. Do you have an email address to post them to? I don't know how to put them on the forum, maybe there's an easy way?...I tried seval times and failed! Doh! Cheers Colin.

[Paullie]

Cables
How did it go ?