Disgraceful Wine Lists

[Mark G]

For the past month or so I've been in Perth quite a bit for work as a consultant. One of the perks of the job is that often I'm taken out for boozey lunches and dinners with various company heavy weights and with my interest in wine I'm often asked to choose the plonk. The last trip up I was shouted to 2 of the top nosheries and to my amazement the wine lists were just pathetic ... overpriced for current wines by a factor of 3-4 on retail, as much dross as you could poke a stick at, and half witted sommeliers that were promoting some generic Chablis like it was the last bottle of Montrachet in the shop.

I would have as a guess that over 90% of all licensed restaurants have wine lists that are just diabolical, and even though they make most of their profit from this side of the cash register they just do not give a hoot. If the chef was serving up fish fingers with McCain wedges then there'd be an uproar, but putting $8 reds in a $40 / main restaurant, perfectly fine. I have discussed this in our websites monthly report and I'm keen to hear from others on their opinions on restaurants, and if you have the time, compose an 18 wine wine list and send it in. If it's a cracker I'll post it on our website next month (as well as send out a prize for being so smart), and forward it on to a few restaurants as an example of what a little bit of imagination can do.

Surely restaurants will wake up to themselves some day and start treating their diners with an element of vinuous respect.

Cheers

Mark G

[rooman]

I was in Perth about 6 months ago and had a great experience at Balthazar. The food is good but the wine list has to be one of the best all round lists I have seen in Australia. It covered all parts of Australia and the various corners of the global. I was so impressed I spent the best part of the evening to the amusement of by business partner talking to the owner about the various bottles he had on the list from Spain and Yarra. Well worth a visit next time you are there.

[Red Bigot]

Mark,

Many restaurants will only wake up if it hits them in the cash register and sometimes by then it is too late.

I very seldom go to restaurants that don't allow BYO, simply because of the frustration and bad mood it induces when reading the wine list. I'd rather pay $20pb "corkage" then 100%-200% markup (on full RRP) on a bottle of wine I might choose from the list.

I do peruse the wine lists though and some of them locally (ACT) are quite good and there is often one or two wines that are both very good and marked up less than the others. I've never worked out whether this is deliberate (as a reward to the knowledgeable) or accidental.

Of course there are some that don't list vintages or don't update the vintages and then grumble when you reject a wine because it is actually a lesser vintage than the one listed.

[Glen]

Hi Mark

After just returning from Palm Cove/Port Douglas after three weeks of hiding from the SA winter I laughed when I saw your post. I was (honestly) contemplating starting the same post but with a sway towards the '5 star' resorts.

Absolutely shocking wine lists, with the exception of a very few. The reason became apparent after talking to a few of the beverage managers, apparently they just do not get good choice from the few reps that inhabit the area. Often these reps are big brand pushers only.

Why not purchase directly from the smaller wine producers I asked? Contracts was the answer.

These resorts are usually owned and run by large hospitality companies that have paid millions for the management rights eg: Mantra, Peppers, Mirvac etc and in their haste to maximise profits on everything, they glue themselves to a single supplier for 'best price' advantage, without the understanding that they are, usually without exception, supplying a few big brand names that we are all familiar with and know the bottle-o price.

Btw, of the three weeks that we were there, I never saw more than 10 people on any one night eating in the restaurant. I am sure this has to do with opportunistic gouging eg: $48 for steak.

The resort we stayed at was the Sea Temple in Palm Cove, and I would recommend this one over any of the others as it was secluded at the end of the beach and the only one with direct beach access. It also only had 90 rooms compared with Peppers, Sebel et al offering 400+ rooms. These others reminded me of public housing departments only that they were built around a swimming pool!

I was also amazed to discover that the rack rates for all these 5 star hotels were around $400-500 for a one bedroom. I managed to get our room for $199 as there weren't many people around and the resorts were feeling the pinch. I imagine that when things are full, that they don't discount at all. If that was the case, I would be pretty pissed to pay $500 for any of those rooms. There just isn't any value. What the heck has happened??? Where has the value gone?

Regards
Glen

[dkw]

Yeah well,

I live in Perth and in some ways I agree, about price at least. The mark-ups on wine lists seem to be spiraling up and up, but then plenty of people keep paying don't they?

And when you talk about price, here's an example of Perth prices. A big local shop is having a 30% off sale this week. Great! Except I would still pay less for almost all of their sale priced wines if I paid 'regular' price in Melbourne or Sydney. As our American friends might say - go figure!

Having said that, there are some great restaurants in Perth that do have decent (and well-priced) wine lists.

Cheers,

Dave

[Waiters Friend]

In the recent Australian Gourmet Traveller Wine magazine, it was actually a wine bar that won the WA best wine list (Must Wine Bar in Mt Lawley). Yes, they operate as a restaurant as well, but they do lots of wine-by-the-glass for casual slurpers as well, and change the list regularly.

Having said that, I think there are better, and I can recently vouch for Balthazar, which was sensational, and (comparatively) reasonably priced. A good mix of wines, although all European and some New World locations were very well represented at a price, there was also a well-chosen range of relatively lower priced Australian wines (e.g. Paringa Estate, Frogmore Creek).

Friends Restaurant is a favourite with a wine list I could read like a novel. As a further twist, Cocos in South Perth (which operates 3-4 restaurants) has also become a wine retailer, and for a fee, you can be a member and receive substantial discounts on wines purchased each time you visit their restaurants or retail outlet. In retail terms, however, their RRPs are generally quite inflated, and by the time you receive the retail 15% discount, you're back to par. The discounts off the restaurant wine lists are better value.

In general, I agree with TORB, and would prefer to pull something (or lots of things) out of the cellar and pay corkage, than have to select from inadequate wine lists. If you're a Perth-ite, I can recommend Da Bruno in Inglewood as being an absolutely 5-star Italian restaurant that is still unlicensed.

However, there are some licensed venues in Perth where the mark-up is not unreasonable, and I will start a separate thread on this subject.

Cheers

[Scotty vino]

So Jamie Oliver has opened his new Italian Restaurant in Adelaide with much Fanfare.
I thought Hmmm I'll check out the wine list....
Not a single SA wine on it.
Mainly Italian drops which I understand completely but nothing local whatsoever.
To me that flies in the face of the Italian way of food and embracing local produce and products.
Anywho, just an observation.

[Rossco]

I dont have a problem paying 2x retail on a wine list. There has to be a premium for the service, galssware, washing and also capital involved in purchasing & storing the wine. Its a business and business needs to make profit to stay open.

I have a BIG problem paying 3x (and more) retail and generally will not go back to a restaurant where i felt ripped off. Nobu in Melbourne was a perfect example of this. While the food was utterly delicious and simply amazing, the pricing of the wine wine was nothing short of embarrassing. A bottle of current vintage Tahbilk Estate Red (cant remember if it was the Cabernet or Shiraz, and this was 3 years ago) was $ 55!! Simply absurd and I wont go back. I have no problem paying and dont consider myself a tight wad, but I am conscious of not getting ripped.

For me, going to a top restaurant (or any restaurant for that matter) is about the WHOLE experience, not just the food.

[maybs]

It's a good point Mark and one I agree with. The combination of bad options and outrageous prices is a killer. I used to think rule of thumb was expect to pay double retail, and mostly if it is an ok list I can live with that. Recently I was looking for new restaurants to take my wife for dinner and observed a lot of the high end sydney restaurants are now charging 3 times retail prices as standard. Very annoying and just makes me avoid them.

[ticklenow1]

I rarely go to restaurants that don't do BYO anymore and when I do, I rarely drink wine. Just have a few beers then go home and open a nice bottle. I am not a tight wad either but it just grates me paying top dollar for wine that is not aged or stored properly. Having my policy severely limits my dining choices but I'm not that worried as I can spend what I don't spend at restaurants on better quality food and wine at home. The number of BYO's is definitely falling as well. I also don't have a major problem paying $10-$20 for corkage either, as long as the have decent glassware.

Cheers
Ian

[maybs]

Yes that is another good point, the number of restaurants that allow BYO, beyond your casual neighborhood joints, does seem to be more and more limited which is annoying. I would happily pay $10-$20 corkage at a half decent place

[redstuff]

What Ian said, including the beer.

[jimv]

When I am forced into that situation I would rather select a Riesling and pick the appropriate food to match. You can get top quality wine that does not need to be aged to be enjoyed and not go crazy with frustration of the excessive markups.

[Waiters Friend]

Perhaps what we need, then, is more information on BYO restaurants in our respective locations. Please head to the Food and Wine board and dive in!

[DaveS]

Dkw

Where in Perth is there a 30% off wine sale?

Dave

[sjw_11]

That sale was 6 years ago ... so probably not much use to you now!

[DaveS]

[JamieBahrain]

Mainly Italian drops which I understand completely but nothing local whatsoever.

Modest Italian drops and I wonder if they BYO?


My last experience in the Barossa was pretty disappointing. I BYO'd magnums ( BP 96 & 98, TF 98, Craiglee 98 ) and the glassware appalling. Having tried the wines from proper glassware before hand they were exceptional. So do restaurants get offended if you turn up with your own glassware?

[damonpeyo]

So do restaurants get offended if you turn up with your own glassware?

Depends what kind of place it is, and how understanding Management/Front of the House staff are which is rare these days as they are mostly students or people doing second jobs, more likely they'll think you are a f__king wanker, having giggles at you behind your back in the kitchen or behind the bar and how you treated them without being too arrogant as most FOH staff are very naive.

If chefs know their wines they probably wouldn't mind as it's the management rule over the chefs on running the restaurant issues.

I've worked a lot of places where the wine menu is a embarrassment, but have no control or say over it.

It's all come down to the management and their running costs/profits. Most of the time nothing to do with chefs, unless they are partners/owners of the business.

[paulf]

I rarely go to restaurants that don't do BYO anymore and when I do, I rarely drink wine. Just have a few beers then go home and open a nice bottle.

The problem with this is, if a restaurant is clueless about its wine list, they will be about 10 times more clueless about their beer list. Even many places that have very good wine lists that are friendly to their food, cover different price points, provide a range of options, understand the concepts of good glassware and correct serving temperature fail to understand that all of that also applies to beer as well.

[phillisc]

Always remember having dinner at a certain place on Belair Rd Hawthorn about 5 years ago, Adelaide locals will know what I am referring to!

When I looked at the wine list there was a Jim Barry Watervale Riesling for $45!!!!!
I said to the sommelier do you have a minute...we walked out to the street and on the advertising billboard 100 metres up the road outside the Torrens Arms Hotel was same wine for ....$8:99c.

He then proceeded to do more ducking and weaving than a mongoose fighting a snake and said we are doing some specials on red wines, Wynns 98 Michael for $280.
You have to wonder how stupid these operators are.

I have not been back.

Cheers
Craig

[michel]

Always remember having dinner at a certain place on Belair Rd Hawthorn about 5 years ago, Adelaide locals will know what I am referring to!

When I looked at the wine list there was a Jim Barry Watervale Riesling for $45!!!!!
I said to the sommelier do you have a minute...we walked out to the street and on the advertising billboard 100 metres up the road outside the Torrens Arms Hotel was same wine for ....$8:99c.

He then proceeded to do more ducking and weaving than a mongoose fighting a snake and said we are doing some specials on red wines, Wynns 98 Michael for $280.
You have to wonder how stupid these operators are.

I have not been back.

Cheers
Craig

that is brilliant

brisbane is going through a gouge atm
very few byos

[Scotty vino]

I rarely go to restaurants that don't do BYO anymore and when I do, I rarely drink wine. Just have a few beers then go home and open a nice bottle. I am not a tight wad either but it just grates me paying top dollar for wine that is not aged or stored properly. Having my policy severely limits my dining choices but I'm not that worried as I can spend what I don't spend at restaurants on better quality food and wine at home. The number of BYO's is definitely falling as well. I also don't have a major problem paying $10-$20 for corkage either, as long as the have decent glassware.

Cheers
Ian

This is one of my big gripes when it comes to restaurants and wine. Actually it's gone from being a gripe to just a laugh.
We've all seen it, the $110-$150 (or $25 down the street at Donald McMurtrie's) bottle of wine teetering above a giant burning wok.
At a local in Adelaide I saw A bottle of Rockford BP sitting within about one foot of an eye burning down light above the bar.
Its was absolutely roasting under that thing.
I didn't even bother looking at the wine list to see what they were asking. I felt like I should've saved it in the name of crimes against wine.
Same incident again, and the same wine at a local thai place not even 2 weeks ago!
Another BP sitting under a fluro light looking glum.

[Ozzie W]

This is one of my big gripes when it comes to restaurants and wine. Actually it's gone from being a gripe to just a laugh.
We've all seen it, the $110-$150 (or $25 down the street at Donald McMurtrie's) bottle of wine teetering above a giant burning wok.
At a local in Adelaide I saw A bottle of Rockford BP sitting within about one foot of an eye burning down light above the bar.
Its was absolutely roasting under that thing.
I didn't even bother looking at the wine list to see what they were asking. I felt like I should've saved it in the name of crimes against wine.
Same incident again, and the same wine at a local thai place not even 2 weeks ago!
Another BP sitting under a fluro light looking glum.

I see this sort of thing all the time and it really puts me off ordering anything from restaurant wine lists. I was at one place about 8 months ago and the wine they poured into my glass straight from an unopened bottle was actually warm. Suffice to say the wine was terrible. And don't even get me started with opened wines not being stored properly and still served by the glass the next day or three.

It's very uncommon but certainly refreshing when you see a restaurant storing wines in a proper wine fridge. They take all this care with storing their food properly, but just don't seem to care when it comes to wine.

[Michael McNally]

A bottle of current vintage Tahbilk Estate Red (cant remember if it was the Cabernet or Shiraz, and this was 3 years ago) was $ 55!! Simply absurd and I wont go back. I have no problem paying and dont consider myself a tight wad, but I am conscious of not getting ripped.

For me, going to a top restaurant (or any restaurant for that matter) is about the WHOLE experience, not just the food.

Sorry Rossco, but if it is the whole experience and you get sensational food, great service and a very good, but slightly overpriced (you said 2x was okay, but not 3x) wine you are going to wipe the place? That doesn't make sense, particularly when the wine in question is pretty well underpriced at retail as many would argue the Tahbilk is. I think charging $55 for decent wine at a top restaurant is not a hanging offence!

Seems like some facial feature removal to me. But if it makes you really angry, then go with your gut!

Just my 2c

Cheers

Michael

[Ozzie W]

Very interesting follow-up from Huon Hooke' on this issue: http://blog.huonhooke.com/post/96488825 ... disconnect

[phillisc]

Very interesting follow-up from Huon Hooke' on this issue: http://blog.huonhooke.com/post/96488825 ... disconnect

Ozzie, thanks for this...a brilliant piece.
All sommeliers and more importantly those who own the business need to have a read of this.

Last week I went to a quiet little suburban restaurant in Adelaide on a Wednesday night.
I politely asked if we could negotiate corkage to which they were happy to do so.

A party of 10 ordering 2-3 courses, coffees etc. on a quiet midweek night, clearly would aid profits for the week.
By the way, service, food, venue, glassware all brilliant.

As an aside, it is dead easy for wine mark ups to take place, but also feel this happens a bit with food.
Some places charging $80 and upwards for waygu or $5 for a single oyster are taking the piss surely.

Cheers
Craig.

[bigtinnie]

The price at some restaurants is ridiculous.
My wife and myself find it entertaining reading wine lists - it's a great source of laughs.
I remember reading a menu at a surf club on the Gold Coast that was offering Rymill 'The Yearling' Cab Sav for $39.

I enjoy reading wine lists whilst holidaying overseas (particularly the Australian or 'Rest of World' sections). In a restaurant earlier this year in New York I saw Penfolds Koonunga Hill (something recent vintage) priced at US$45 and on the same menu a D'Arenburg Footbolt for $25. Go figure.

[Matt]

similar thread a while back viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12954&p=110435&hilit=wow+what+a+mark+up#p110435

[Mahmoud Ali]

I was at one place about 8 months ago and the wine they poured into my glass straight from an unopened bottle was actually warm. Suffice to say the wine was terrible.

I'd have to say that any wine "poured" from an unopened bottle would be terrible - probably extremely dry, not to mention tasteless and without much of a bouquet. Of course the restaurant probably made a fortune on the bottle.

Mahmoud.