Over priced wines

[Ratcatcher]

I know I whinge about prices all the time but I've just finished scanning the Halliday Guide and the thing that stuck out for me was the huge number of $55 - $75 wines from producers that I have never heard of, or winemakers I have never heard of, or I've heard of them but never read a rave review about any of their wines in the past, and I read a lot.

I don't know how many times I read a tasting note from a producer/winemaker established in the late 90's that I was unfamiliar with, and have my interest raised, only to get to the end and read 91 pts, $75. Then on the very same page I could find a wine from an established, highly regarded producer with a wine that has 10,15,20 years of documented track record and it was 94 pts, $35. Who would ever buy the $75 wine?

I know Halliday points aren't the sole indicator of quality but surely if you are a new producer and you want to start selling your wines at $60+ then it had better be a $hit Hot wine and it had better be better than most of the $30 wines out there in the market.

Who are these people that plant a few vines in a trendy area and expect to get $75 a bottle straight away? Do they manage to sell these wines? Who buys them?

It's all very well to produce what you think is a great wine and put a price tag on it that you think it is worth but I loathe this attitude that you instantly deserve this price based on maybe one or two vintages. What happens when you produce an average wine? Do you still expect people will pay $75?

As much as I am annoyed by Fosters price rises I think it's a bit rich for a new producer to be asking $75 for their Barossa Shiraz when Bin 389 is available for under $50. Do these people look at the market at all when setting their prices? A lot of the $60 wines from established producers started off at $20 or $30 and built up to $60+ through a history of quality and consistency they didn't just get one good vintage and start charging $75.

For example, am I gonna buy a Charles Melton 95 rated red for $55 or a Fred Nerk just out of a winemaking course Barossa 92 rated red for $70 even if it is from old, low cropped vines?

Are they marketing them to people who want to drink status symbols? Are there that many of those people out there to sustain the number of over-priced boutique wines in the Halliday Guide? Or are they just taking a gamble, hoping to be discovered and be the net big thing and if it doesn't work out sell the balance at a clearance house and launch under another label in 3 years time and try again? I just don't get it.

[Wayno]

A fair Rant, I'd say.

I don't have much else to add, other than I agree with you. In the search for alternatives to the tradition rich corporate heavyweight wine that might be seen as resting a bit on it's laurels, I've found more enjoyable and quirky alternatives at less of a price rather than more of a price.

On a related note, I recall visiting Margaret River a few years back and we tried loads of fabulous reds from loads of good producers, be they small and boutique or well known and then we hit Gralyn - more or less same quality but prices were effectively doubled.

We just scratched our heads.

[Craig(NZ)]

Points. It is about as mature as buying a car based on its 0-100kmph time. put the halliday guide away and start thinking a bit more for yourself is the first step

If it is a wine one you really enjoy you are happy to pay more whether it is a large producer or small producer

value for money only becomes an issue if quality isnt there. It is then we can rant and spend our dosh elsewhere

if the quality is there (ie we enjoy it) it is simply a case of affordability (cf vfm). Some great wines just arent affordable due to supply/demand. i have bought the odd unknown wine with high price tags that i really enjoy because i believe in the quality not because i saw it won a gold or got 100 points or topped some list. in some people eyes they may be seen as overpriced when compared to established icons.

its a matter of taste and personal judgement

[Red Bigot]

C'mon Rodney, name some names.

Some of these new labels have some pretty experienced winemakers behind them and access to some of the best grapes around. Or young, lesser-experienced winemakers with talent who haven't yet learned any bad habits.

What use is a long track record if you drive the brand into the ground - Wynns, Penfolds, Rosemount, Lindemans, Leasingham, others - for a lengthy period?

I'm sure there are some that are not worth the asking price, but also a track record has to start somewhere and if the wine is good enough it will always sell.

[Ratcatcher]

I was waiting for someone to ask me for examples.

I guess I have a biased perspective because I am a traditionalist at heart about many things including sport as well as wine. I hate upstarts and flash in the pan's (an greedy short-sighted opportunists)

I realise anyone's points whether it's Halliday, Parker or whoever are unimportant Craig but I read them for a reason.

My point is that I can't afford to spend $75 on an untried wine to see if it's worth $75. I'm not gonna spend $75 on some wine I've never heard of because that's 3 bottles of very good wine I've missed out on if it's just an average wine.

I'm not "in the business" I don't get to go to hundreds of tastings or cellar doors every year and I'm on a limited budget. It's not a miniscule budget but it's limited and 6 x $75 on untried, unproven wines is a big chunk out of it to experiment on them to see if I like them. I'm certainly not gonna try them at that price if a respected reviewer considers them equal in relative quality to Seppelts Victoria Shiraz, Mamre Brook or Mt Pleasant Philip which I can buy for $14 - $18.

A wine at $75 for me needs to either have a history that guarantees quality or a guaranteed potential for some Wow Factor.

Prime example: John Duval. Is there a better pedigree than ex-Grange winemaker? On his 3rd vintage (?) now and all 3 have got excellent reviews. Yet still only just over $40. Why should some relative newcomer from Margaret River or Yarra Valley think I will buy their $75 Cab when I can buy this for $40? Where's the logic?

I guess in the end who cares? I don't have to buy them and they can do whatever they want with their business. I just don't understand who they think is going to buy all these wines. I reckon there is a very limited market out there for trendy $75 wines. Plenty of uneducated people will buy a bottle of Mt edelstone or St Henri for Dad's 50th but they aren't gonna give him a bottle of Mt Greedy Pinot. ( I hope there isn't a winery called Mt Greedy

I just think 98% of the market are like me and I can't see how the other 2% of the market can sustain so many $75 wines. I jut reckon it's a real gamble to take that road and probably 95% of them will go bust. The other 5% may become the next Duck Muck or RunRig but I wouldn't take that gamble myself.

Rant over.

[Wayno]

Again, I agree. A $75 bottle of wine is a big markup, no matter how limited, artisanal or old vine it is. In a recent Decanter, a producer of British sparkling wines admitted that if people pay 30 pounds for his wine (as opposed to 10 pounds) they 'think' they're getting a better wine 'even if they're not necessarily'. I'm paraphrasing here, and probably quite loosely, but the honesty shocked me a bit.

By all means by ANY $75 wine if you like it, just remember it cost nowhere near that to make. I'd argue that a fair chunk of the reason people spend up on expensive wines (your 50th birthday occasions etc) is on label reputation. Like expensive perfume and other luxury goods, that seems fair enough to me and I'm prone to it myself on occasion.

That same deal is not there with Chateau No-Name. Just the wine alone, and you'd jolly well better like the wine!

[Luke W]

Dear ratcatcher

I have a lot of sympathy for you and if $75 a bottle wineries didn't go broke regularly and off load their wares, I'd never get to try them either. It's interesting to see that quite of few of these wineries do get into trouble financially despite the fact that they're trying to sell wine at exorbitant prices. To address your concerns about Mr Greedy - I dont think there are too many wineries that can compete with the big boys for premium wine for too long without producing the goods (even for $30 a bottle). I've got a mate who is a small wine maker and it costs him $25 a bottle just to make his wine - in some years if a disaster occurs he makes nothing or loses a heap - it's a hell of a life but he loves making wine.

It's also hard to browse through many of the posts on this forum and read about wines that only a millionaire or someone in the industry can afford or get to drink for nicks (lucky bastards!!).

I would like to see advertised more often on this forum the bargains that people see around the place rather than the wines that are out of reach for peasants like me on a wage and with a family....

How about a bargains of the week column or maybe we can subscribe to Brian's column at redbigot.com.au (even tho' most of the wine there is still out of my price range..).

[griff]

How about a bargains of the week column

Not a bad idea. I am guilty of writing up the more interesting wines I get to have rather than the weekday quaffers. Perhaps start a thread similar to the monthly purchase thread. That just appeared and has started to become a regular event. Maybe this one will too.

cheers

Carl

[Ratcatcher]

I was about to start this post: "I'm not complaining" but I guess I am.

It's more that I'm just puzzled.

I can find myself plenty of wines that I love at $25, $30, $35 and even less so I don't really care about these wines. I just don't understand the marketing strategy.

The only reason I raised it was that there seemed to so many more of them in this edition and I thought it was odd because the AUS and US markets are reducing rather than growing aren't they?

[DJ]

How about a bargains of the week column

Not a bad idea. I am guilty of writing up the more interesting wines I get to have rather than the weekday quaffers. Perhaps start a thread similar to the monthly purchase thread. That just appeared and has started to become a regular event. Maybe this one will too.

cheers

Carl

I'll make the call before someone else does. This is Gavin's site. If you want / find bargains subscribe to Red Bigot's site and send him your bargain finds

[TORB]

Ratty,

(I have a cat named after you. Rat Bag Port )

You raise some interesting points. Often when we do our Tour Diary trips I ask myself the same question. There are heaps of those $75 wines out there with no reputation or pedigree.

In many cases, production is minuscule so the wineries are able to move them, but in many cases I bet they find it difficult to move it in a timely fashion.

Some of those wines are damn good. I remember when Troy Kalleske first released his wines and there was that one (Johann Georg) for $100. Initially I thought it was over the top in price, but when I put my prejudice aside and thought about the wine I tasted, it was worth the tariff.

I guess I am lucky that I get to try these so I know what to buy. There is also another consideration. If you have all the scribes all going gar gar over a wine, its going to be good stuff.

A midweek regular thread called "Value Drinking" or similar is a good idea too.

[griff]

How about a bargains of the week column

Not a bad idea. I am guilty of writing up the more interesting wines I get to have rather than the weekday quaffers. Perhaps start a thread similar to the monthly purchase thread. That just appeared and has started to become a regular event. Maybe this one will too.

cheers

Carl

I'll make the call before someone else does. This is Gavin's site. If you want / find bargains subscribe to Red Bigot's site and send him your bargain finds

No no. I meant just the wines that you have drunk lately that are great value! Don't need to put the price even.

cheers

Carl

[dave vino]

I was waiting for someone to ask me for examples.

My point is that I can't afford to spend $75 on an untried wine to see if it's worth $75.

And what's even better is when you go to their CD most of the time they don't have their $75 one for tasting anyway.

[Craig(NZ)]

I look sideways as much as anyone else at most highly priced wines dont get me wrong, and i guess aussie is a big place if you live in Darwin you cant just pop down to Adelaide ever 12 months to see how things are going.

I guess over time you settle on some favourite labels and stick with them. it just gets annoying when your favourite goes through a series of price rises

A good way to try some of these wines is maybe share the risk with a few others. A $75 wine shared among 6 or 8 people is a good night at no more dosh than a glass of pub house wine.

[Daryl Douglas]

Dear ratcatcher

I have a lot of sympathy for you and if $75 a bottle wineries didn't go broke regularly and off load their wares, I'd never get to try them either. It's interesting to see that quite of few of these wineries do get into trouble financially despite the fact that they're trying to sell wine at exorbitant prices. To address your concerns about Mr Greedy - I dont think there are too many wineries that can compete with the big boys for premium wine for too long without producing the goods (even for $30 a bottle). I've got a mate who is a small wine maker and it costs him $25 a bottle just to make his wine - in some years if a disaster occurs he makes nothing or loses a heap - it's a hell of a life but he loves making wine.

It's also hard to browse through many of the posts on this forum and read about wines that only a millionaire or someone in the industry can afford or get to drink for nicks (lucky bastards!!).

I would like to see advertised more often on this forum the bargains that people see around the place rather than the wines that are out of reach for peasants like me on a wage and with a family....

How about a bargains of the week column or maybe we can subscribe to Brian's column at redbigot.com.au (even tho' most of the wine there is still out of my price range..).

I too find most of the wines on Brian's site out of my price range.

I've been posting TNs of red wines from $15 to $25-$30 wines here for quite a while now, with a heavy bias to <$20 wines and some cheaper than $15. Don't you read them?

It can be a bit daunting to post TNs for lower-priced wines when so many others post TN's for wines that largely are $30-$40 and up.

Here are some wines I had in the last 6-12 months that I've considered to have good or better qpr, some discounted, some run-out lines. I've not necessarily posted a TN for all of them and prices are approximately what I paid, perhaps +/- $1 or so:

Longhop Shiraz 07 $15
Torzi Matthews Schist Rock 07 $18
Ingoldby Chardonnay 06 $10
The Story Grampians Shiraz 06 $20
Viking Grand Shiraz 06 $20
Charles Sturt Uni Chardonnay 07 $12.50
Metala White Label Shiraz Cab 05 $12
Di Bortoli Windy Peak Chardonnay 06 $10
Polleters Cab 06 $25
Peter Howland Parsons Vineyard Shiraz 05 $20
Mike Press Shiraz 07 $11
Mike Press Cab 06 $10 (Judy emailed "Yikes!" at my Shiraz freight rate)
Peter Howland Pine Lodge Vineyard Shiraz 05 $20
Leasingham Bin 7 Riesling 06 $9
Tin Shed Melting Pot Shiraz 05 $18
Teusner Riebke Shiraz 06 $19
Teusner Joshua GSM 05 $5 (I scammed this one at the local barn)
Thorne Clarke Shotfire Ridge Quartage 06 $18
Grant Burge Filsell Shiraz 05 $24
Hewitson Miss Harry GSM 06 $19
Zema Estate Cab 04 $19
Teusner Salsa Rose 07 $18
Teusner Cellar Trial Petit Verdot 04(?) $11
Tahbilk Shiraz 02 $9 + 03,04 cab & shiraz $14 + some whites $?
Capel Vale Cab 04 $19
Jacobs Creek Riesling 06 $7
Seppelt Chalambar 04 $17
Tar & Roses Heathcote Shiraz 07 $14
Jacobs Creek Reserve Shiraz 05 $12

Of course there have been quite a few others, some <$30 (Forest Hill Block series reds and whites, Zema Family Selection Cab 04 come to mind).

Cheers

daz

[seddo]

Along with every other post I wholeheartily agree with sentiments that have been expressed. Going off on another tangent - when are we (as a wine buying and drinking public) going to be able to take that corked wine ,along with the receipt, back to the chain store for a replacement or refund. I know there are a lot of variables associated with this - starting at bottling thru to shipping and storage but I am sick and tired of buying a bottle of vino - in any price range and finding that it is corked,unfortunately all my favourites are not under screwcap.

To join Daz with a few beauties - under $20

Taylors Cab 06
Swings and Roundabouts CabMerlot 05
Yering Station Pinot 06
Barwang Cab 04,05
Brookland Valley verse 1 SSB 07
Charles Cimicky Trumps Shiraz 06
Ravensworth sangiovese 07

cheers
Seddo

[Red Bigot]

It's also hard to browse through many of the posts on this forum and read about wines that only a millionaire or someone in the industry can afford or get to drink for nicks (lucky bastards!!).

You should go and look at some of the threads over on *Forum then and see what some of those guys drink. My annual budget in a night or week.

I too find most of the wines on Brian's site out of my price range.

Longhop Shiraz 07 $15
Torzi Matthews Schist Rock 07 $18
The Story Grampians Shiraz 06 $20
Viking Grand Shiraz 06 $20
Metala White Label Shiraz Cab 05 $12
Peter Howland Parsons Vineyard Shiraz 05 $20
Peter Howland Pine Lodge Vineyard Shiraz 05 $20
Thorne Clarke Shotfire Ridge Quartage 06 $18
Grant Burge Filsell Shiraz 05 $24
Hewitson Miss Harry GSM 06 $19
Zema Estate Cab 04 $19
Tahbilk Shiraz 02 $9 + 03,04 cab & shiraz $14
Capel Vale Cab 04 $19
Seppelt Chalambar 04 $17
Of course there have been quite a few others, some <$30 (Forest Hill Block series reds, Zema Family Selection Cab 04 come to mind).

Cheers

daz

Sorry daz, I tend not to focus on widely advertised specials under $20, but I think most/all of the above from your list have featured on my site, so you aren't doing too badly.

[Michael McNally]

Ratty

I smell a sales person/marketing behind some of it. On the other hand some of it might be winemakers attempting to exel at what they do.

I think some smaller/newer labels do it so that they have a "range". I know it is hard when people lob up at a cellar door expecting to taste at least half a dozen different wines to find that there is just one red and one white. I think the sales term is something like "providing alternate price points" or some other useless claptrap. Even if the wines are only made in small quantities, they still have a "range" and still have "product" they can market as "premium" or "luxury", qualities that an extraordinarily large number of dills aspire to purchase.

On the other hand there are no doubt great and/or upcoming winemakers out there who genuinely want to see how good a wine they can make. Given the cost difference between average, good and exceptional fruit (not to mention oak) it is hardly surprising that some of them seem expensive, particularly if they are made in small quantities. Someone has to do all that plunging and picking by hand!

That all these wines are tasted and rated/evaluated doesn't mean they were made for a similar purpose. Some were made for marketing, and some were made for individual fulfillment (and some were probably made for a variety of other reasons). Only the taster will be able to tell the difference! Don't let it get to you!

Cheers

Michael

[KMP]

Marketing folks certainly try to influence prices. A winemaker friend here in the US was told (a few years ago now) by those marketing his wines that he could get $50/bottle for his Pinots because they were single vineyard and in small quantities. He kept his price at around $30 because he wanted to “be fair” to his customers. His wines have been well received over the last few years and so now some of those wines fetch $45+ retail, and they sell because he has built a reputation. Its hard to say whether his sales would have been better (or worse) at $50/bottle but he’s happy the didn’t lose customers because his early prices were too high.

Mike

[MilduraBob]

One of the most interesting posts I've seen on this forum for a long time and it must also be a record - 19 posts and we never got off the topic!!!!!

I am also at a loss to understand how these so-called 'boutique' wineries sell, what appear to me to be very over-priced wines. But maybe I'm wrong as I haven't had the pleasure [or otherwise] to be in a position to take a punt on an unknown $75.00 wine. Obviously others have and good luck to them!

I agree with the comment that we should have more on the types of wine that the 'ordinary' people drink and not just those wines that are out of the price range of many people. But it is up to 'us' to submit these posts if we want to hear what other people think about them or to tell others about reasonably priced wines that we have enjoyed. I am another who tries to enjoy wine on a reasonably limited budget and wines over $50 are certainly out of my price range, other than for the odd special occasion.

Cheers,
Bob

[dave vino]

Maybe these winemakers should ask themselves, is my $75 Shiraz I'm trying to sell better than a Rockford BP at $50? Or Clonakilla SV at $75, or a Lakes Folly Cabernet at $55 or a Wendouree Shiraz for $50 or a Stonewell Shiraz for $70. Then take a good look at themselves and understand who they are now competing with and the expectations people have.

[Alex F]

Maybe these winemakers should ask themselves, is my $75 Shiraz I'm trying to sell better than a Rockford BP at $50? Or Clonakilla SV at $75, or a Lakes Folly Cabernet at $55 or a Wendouree Shiraz for $50 or a Stonewell Shiraz for $70.

I don't know, sometimes I ask them questions like this and the answer is always invariably yes.

[Daryl Douglas]

Sorry daz, I tend not to focus on widely advertised specials under $20, but I think most/all of the above from your list have featured on my site, so you aren't doing too badly.

I have seen many of the wines I listed on your site Brian (thanks for sending my login details again) and do sometimes follow-up on the info you post, even if it's only to check out some of the other purveyors you mention there. I have even bought from some of them. Very few of my wine orders though, deliberately on my part, exceed $220-$240.

Thanks

daz

EDIT: P.S. Halliday, Ric(initially on the old Winepros forum) and yourself have been instrumental in considerably broadening my wine experience, perhaps even my still-limited wine knowledge .

[Bick]

I think there have been some very well made points in the posts here. I particularly think Michael McNally's point about the marketing of different wines at different price points to provide a range, is an excellent one.

For me, I generally wouldn't buy a new label boutique-type wine for a lot of money. But as soon as I thought that, I actually thought of an exception. Escarpment just this year started to market new single vineyard pinots which of course had no track record, and they were pitched straight away at about NZ $70. Even the guys at Caro's thought it was bit rich, given that's the same price as Ata Rangi, which has a proven track record. Yet, I did buy a bottle of the Te Rehau. Thing is I knew it was made by Larry McKenna, and that a reviewer I like gave it a very good write up. So I guess it depends whether you know a bit of the background. That may apply to only a small subsection of the wine-buying public for most boutique wines, but if the production is small, that may not matter and the wine will shift anyway.

(I've not bought any more of the Escarpment, mind you - too expensive for me!)

[roughred]

Good thread and plenty of valid points above.

With so many wineries of different sizes and in different markets it is near impossible to come up with a common or single understanding of value. Further confusing the issue is that many wine consumers value different things in the wines that they drink.

Some are label drinkers, some are penny pinchers, some value scarcity and rarity, the odd consumer will buy on quality alone - go figure!

The one thing common to all wineries though is that the market will decide what your wine is worth. Bin 389 is often suggested as a benchmark amongst premium wines. At 100,000 cases or whatever the production figure is that gets bandied about, I think it's phenomenal that the wine can maintain such a high pricepoint. But the history and quality of the wine has created a ready and willing market, and we all line up for it every year. We might tip our hats to Fosters/Southcorp for offering such outstanding value, but rest assured they know exactly what pricepoint 389 can withstand for them to maintain and hopefully grow marketshare at those volumes.

Consider John Riddoch a few years back. With vintages mounting up, the market was telling Southcorp that the wine was overpriced at $85-$90, and they acted accordingly. Now perhaps the market for premium Oz Cab has grown, perhaps the quality of the wine has improved, or maybe they are producing less, but Fosters have had confidence in the market over the past few years to creep the price back up again.

Totally different scenario for the Greedy Hill Special Reserve Limited Release Shiraz at $70. Maybe Mr Greedy only produces two puncheons a year. He might appreciate the fact that better wines are available at $50, but he knows damn well that he can sell out his entire production at $70. If your Mr Greedy what are you gong to do? If something should change, and Mr Greedy isn't selling as much as he used to, and vintages are mounting up in his warehouse, then he may well go out the door backwards because he wasn't listening to his market.

I suppose it comes down to us as individuals and consumers. I know I have to think long and hard about buying a $70 bottle of wine, but not everyone has to.

[Wayno]

For me, I generally wouldn't buy a new label boutique-type wine for a lot of money. But as soon as I thought that, I actually thought of an exception. Escarpment just this year started to market new single vineyard pinots which of course had no track record, and they were pitched straight away at about NZ $70. Even the guys at Caro's thought it was bit rich, given that's the same price as Ata Rangi, which has a proven track record. Yet, I did buy a bottle of the Te Rehau. Thing is I knew it was made by Larry McKenna, and that a reviewer I like gave it a very good write up. So I guess it depends whether you know a bit of the background. That may apply to only a small subsection of the wine-buying public for most boutique wines, but if the production is small, that may not matter and the wine will shift anyway.

(I've not bought any more of the Escarpment, mind you - too expensive for me!)

Yes, it was the Larry McKenna factor so you can (with some confidence) buy regardless of track record. HE is the track record.

[Ratcatcher]

So many interesting responses, I don't know where to start.

Daryl, you must be a great shopper. I thought I was pretty tough but I'd love to have got hold of some of those on your list at those prices.

One interesting point made was that just because they submit them to Halliday for review doesn't mean they are selling that particular $75 wine commercially, it may just be very limited production for private consumption or very limited distribution, I hadn't thought of that.

Dave's point about someone doing a reality check by comparing their wine to Rockford, Wendouree et al sums up my thoughts. I guess even if they do think that their wine does compare to Rockford BP then instead of setting their price the same or higher they should be thinking what did Rockford price their first 5 vintages at in comparison to the rest of the market.

People just don't seem to think they have to earn some sort of claim to market status, they should just be given it instantaneously. These icons earn it by repeated vintages of great wine, not one or two vintages which may or may not be a complete fluke. It's my inner traditionalist coming out, I just think people should earn their stripes. Capatalise on it when you have, sure, but don't expect it as a right from the beginning.

It's also different if a winery that has a solid reputation and has produced the goods for several years launches a new benchmark wine, maybe they have some claim to the pricetag but I have problems with complete newcomers expecting these prices, even if they are using the contract winemaking of a a great winemaker.

I found one prime example in the Guide. Names and details varied for anonymity.

Winery established late 90's, planting increased about 6 years ago. They use the services of an ex-big company winemaker who is now out on his own and has established his own label and got excellent reviews across the board for his first 5 vintages.

The winery using his services charges $58 for their Merlot. The winemaker charges $48 for his own wine of the exact same variety and region. The winery's wine rated in the high 80's the winemaker's rated in the low 90's.

even if you personally thought your wine was the better of the two isn't it a bit presumptuous to set your price $10 higher?

[Red Bigot]

even if you personally thought your wine was the better of the two isn't it a bit presumptuous to set your price $10 higher?

Gotta recover the cost of the high-priced consultant winemaker...

If they sell out, they priced it right, if they don't they either reduce it or drink it themselves, go back to selling grapes, or go belly-up I guess.

Sometimes these wines are that good. The track records starts with the first one and then the challenge is to keep them coming. With a great run of vintages in SA from 2004-2008, if you are any good, that is a 5-year track record right there. It's what happens in the tough vintages that makes or breaks the reputation.

BTW, iconic status (and there are relatively few) is often driven by secondary market performance and/or scarcity. I worked out many years ago that buying on past reputation (no matter how long) is not good policy when a string of lesser wines are offered due to any number of variables, including vintage conditions. If I can taste a first-release wine from a new maker, I decide whether it is good enough to justify the price and if it is then I don't have any problem in buying it. But I wouldn't blindly buy it again the next year without confirming it is of similar or better quality. The same goes for long-established brands with good track records, I still treat it on a vintage to vintage basis.

[Michael McNally]

The winery using his services charges $58 for their Merlot. The winemaker charges $48 for his own wine of the exact same variety and region. The winery's wine rated in the high 80's the winemaker's rated in the low 90's.

even if you personally thought your wine was the better of the two isn't it a bit presumptuous to set your price $10 higher?

Ratty

Most people just don't have that kind of depth of knowledge. You are demonstrating that your knowledge of the market gives you an advantage. Access to knowledge (particularly reliable/accurate information) in a market is worth a lot. Look at Brian's site. People pay for the insider knowledge on prices.

If you see a wine on an auction site and you know it is made by a good winemaker etc. you have the edge and will bid higher than those who don't. Or the reverse; look at the ridiculous bids in the Heritage auctions - people without knowledge. The great unwashed masses out there who don't have a clue about what they are buying (I oversimplify for dramatic effect) are the people who lose out in situations like this because of a lack of information. Fortunately a lot of them don't know or don't care. Sellers have the right to take advantage of that sometimes.

Cheers

Michael

[Ratcatcher]

Excellent points Brian and Michael. The Heritage auctions are a good example.

I guess in the long run it's their choice to price their wine how they want to and it's our choice whether to pay it or not. The market will sort it out, if not in the short term then it will in the long term.

Back to my original point though, I was just surprised by how many of these wines their were and my impression was that it was a lot more than in previous Halliday Guides. That may just reflect his tasting schedule???

I was just perplexed about how many there were and thought there couldn't be a market for all of them and surely they must realise they are taking a huge gamble with their reputation with us consumers.

I then got sidetracked with my ideological dislike for people trying to make a quick buck without "paying their dues". That probably was a bit of a side issue.