american versus french oak

Teddy · Post by **Teddy** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:01 pm

Hi all,
I would like to conduct a taste test for my self between american and french oak.
While i can definitely smell and tast the differance between the two, I would really like to open two bottles of the same variety and similar style side by side just to take in the full amount variance between the two.
Could anyone please suggest two wines that would suit my experiment.

I hope this is not a stupid question.,
Regardes
Trev

Daryl Douglas · Post by **Daryl Douglas** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:43 pm

Another variable would likely be the length of time each wine spent in the respective oaks. It's my understanding that American oak isn't as fine-grained as French, the former giving up it's flavour influence to a wine more readily than the latter.

Presumably you'd be looking for wines that have been aged in 100% new oak of each type. Not many wineries do that these days, using some new and some multiple-use vessels. To complicate matters, many wineries use some of each type oak to produce a desired flavour profile.

Perhaps the most obvious use of American oak I've experienced was a bottle of Penfolds Bin 707 1998 about 16 months ago.

Have fun!

daz

Mike Hawkins · Post by **Mike Hawkins** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:00 am

Maybe Grange and RWT

Bick · Post by **Bick** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:59 am

Mike Hawkins wrote:Maybe Grange and RWT

Quite an expensive experiment don't you think??

Christo · Post by **Christo** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:45 am

707 vs J riddoch?

c

wiggum · Post by **wiggum** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:27 am

What about Marius, Symphony vs Sympatico.

KMP · Post by **KMP** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:02 am

For a comparison of French versus American oak you really need to get information on more than just the oak used. For example the strain of yeast used can significantly affect the flavor profile of a wine even when the same fruit and oak is used.

I'd try to identify a single producer that you can contact for details about how the wines were made. I believe the Marius Simpatico is aged in both French and American oak, but you would have to ask Roger Pike if he has bottles from individual barrels.

Another source might be Wayne Dutschke. He also uses French and American oak and then blends his shiraz from his St Jakobi vineyards. He certainly has wines from French barrels (Single Barrel and Oscar Semmler), and both French and American but whether he has any just American oak wines is something you would need to ask him.

Mike

n4sir · Post by **n4sir** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:20 am

This is a bit tricky, as usually producers who choose different oak types usually source fruit from different regions/vineyards with notably different fruit characteristics to take advantage of the differences (or vice-versa), so really many wines would be different anyway even if the oak was the same.

Keeping this in mind, probably the best example I can think of for your experiment would be Kaesler's Old Vine Barossa Shiraz (French oak) vs The Bogan (US oak). Otherwise if you don't mind if they come from different regions maybe Penfolds Coonawarra Bin 128 (French oak) vs Penfolds Kalimna Bin 28 (US oak), which would be a cheaper alternative and very easy to source.

Cheers,
Ian

Ps. I thought Roger's types of oak used in the Marius Simpatico/Symphony was basically the same except the Symphony gets more/newer oak - my apologies Roger if I'm wrong.

RogerPike · Post by **RogerPike** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:08 pm

The Marius Simpatico is French and American oak and the Symphony is 100% French (and more new barrels).

Cheers,
Roger

Sharkey · Post by **Sharkey** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:40 pm

So you need 2 wines that are the same variety and vinatage, from the same region and of about the same quality that have both been matured in 100% new oak, with one being French oak and the other American.

What about

Jacobs Creek Centenary Hill Shiraz Ã¢â‚¬â€œ American Oak
Peter Lehmann Eight Songs Shiraz Ã¢â‚¬â€œ French Oak

Both from the Barossa and both should be available in the same vintage.

Teddy · Post by **Teddy** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:18 pm

Thanks for all the quick replys.

It seems that to get a comparison of the two oaks, is a lot more involved than I thought.
I do like the sound of the Grange & RWT, but well beyond my budget.

I do like Ian's idea of the Kaesler wines, and also Sharkey's recommendations seem to be a great match to compaire.

Any way thanks for all the advice, look forward to try these.

Regards
Trev

TORB · Post by **TORB** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:30 pm

n4sir wrote:Keeping this in mind, probably the best example I can think of for your experiment would be Kaesler's Old Vine Barossa Shiraz (French oak) vs The Bogan (US oak).

The problem here is that the wines are intentionally made in different styles, so how much of that is as a result of oak vs other factors.

The best way is to try and find a winery where you can try a couple of barrel samples where a wine from the same batch of fermented juice is being matured in both types of oak.

Daryl Douglas · Post by **Daryl Douglas** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:41 am

TORB wrote:
n4sir wrote:Keeping this in mind, probably the best example I can think of for your experiment would be Kaesler's Old Vine Barossa Shiraz (French oak) vs The Bogan (US oak).

The problem here is that the wines are intentionally made in different styles, so how much of that is as a result of oak vs other factors.

The best way is to try and find a winery where you can try a couple of barrel samples where a wine from the same batch of fermented juice is being matured in both types of oak.

Now that's about as logical and obvious as can be! Nice one Ric. But...........barrel samples aren't finished wines............and how could Teddy get access to such samples? Is he on an Arthurian quest?

TORB · Post by **TORB** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:56 am

Daz,

Given he lives in North Eastern Victoria, a trip to the Cellar Doors in that area and a few well chosen words in the right ear should make the job doable.

Gary W · Post by **Gary W** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:17 am

I actually have a four bottle pack of 04 Euroa Creek Shiraz where the same fruit has been aged in different oak and one of the final production blend. So I have one with French Oak, American and Hungarian. It is an exact example of the influence of oak on wine. If you lived in Sydney I could open them at my office one day, have a quick taste through, and leave the four bottles to be picked up. I actually intended to run it as a quick informative tasting but have not got round to it in over a year...
GW

griff · Post by **griff** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:19 am

Gary W wrote:I actually have a four bottle pack of 04 Euroa Creek Shiraz where the same fruit has been aged in different oak and one of the final production blend. So I have one with French Oak, American and Hungarian. It is an exact example of the influence of oak on wine. If you lived in Sydney I could open them at my office one day, have a quick taste through, and leave the four bottles to be picked up. I actually intended to run it as a quick informative tasting but have not got round to it in over a year...
GW

Interesting that they did that. Looking forward to the notes. Do they specify the toast levels and whether they are from the same cooperage etc?

cheers

Carl

Gary W · Post by **Gary W** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:35 pm

Medium toast. I'll have to check on the coopers.
GW

tpang · Post by **tpang** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:21 pm

How about the 03 Amon-Ra (american oak) vs the 04 (french oak)

i'm trying to recall the details which are sketchy at best the the moment after 2 bottles, but if the 04 isn't 100% french oak, then the 05 surely is...

edit: sorry, the 2002 was 100% american oak.. a combination of french and american from the 2003 vintage onwards.

fivewells · Post by **fivewells** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:55 pm

Trev,

Great idea,

for me not much difference .... its more on the age of the barrel and then the time in contact also the size of the barrel variable

Possibly another one to watch out for is Hungarian oak, now coming back into vouge.

Geoff