Australian Reds - why are they becoming uncool worldwide

[Jay60A]

Over here in the UK it seems like we are going full-cycle and big Australian reds are definitely "uncool" as they'd say on Top Gear. Sure Penfolds Bin 28 looks more iffy these days but wineries like Wirra Wirra, Magpie Estate, Peter Lehmann, Rolf Binder (add another 10) are hitting this mid-price point with great wines and increasing regional or vineyard emphasis at a similar pricepoint sans discounts.

So as far as I can see this is purely a fashion swing, not based on inherent quality. Has there been a time when the overall quality of Australian reds has been better?
Top '02s and the '04s / '05s across the board are simply magnificent.

If so, what actually drives a fashion swing in wine. Really consumer taste? Or the critics?

Cheers -- Jay

PS I don't give a jot for fashion. I love shiraz through thick and very thick!

[Craig(NZ)]

jay, are you saying there was a period of time when aussie reds were cool??

[Jay60A]

Shouldn't you be at work bottling some cola or something? .

I'm sure Aussie red wine was cool for a moment in about 1994 (Wine Spectator WOTY Grange 1990) and used to be socially acceptable in the UK about 1998-2004. Now coming over to diner here with an aussie bottle of wine and you are a social outcast "Wot no Chablis?" etc. I should not complain, it keeps the prices down.

Listen, the UK press is raving about NZ Pinot so be happy! Jamie Goode ( a pretty straight bloke) just wrote in "wineanorak" in his 2008 predictions -

In bullet form they are:
1. More competitive market
2. Belt tightening by consumers
3. Neoprohibitionism on the move
4. Alternative packaging increasing
5. High alcohol takes a beating
6. No more RP for UK retailers
7. Fewer corks
8. Australia struggles; NZ thrives

Jay

[Ian S]

Jay
In part I do think the wines hitting the shelves don't help. Majestic have a truly dire range of Aussie wines these days and the old champion (Oddbins) are in terminal decline. There are some good independants hunting out the better wines (IMO), but if judged on high st. or supermarket wines, then Aussie wine looks pretty uncool to me.

To give an example, I haven't seen Wynn's Black Label Cabernet in one of the big chains for maybe 2-3 years. In days of old Oddbins and Majestic both ran it as a major line. 2001 is the latest available vintage anywhere I've seen. Instead it's the likes of McGuigan who seem to have a foot in every door and they're no advert for aussie wines.

As well as the buyers, I'd have to question what the Aussie wine marketing mob are doing. There is an opportunity to present an alternative view of Australian wines, but apart from the wineint (Taste?) event, (which itself had rather too much of the corporates industrial swill last time we attended), I don't see the big push I recall used to occur.

My due centesimi

[river]

IMHO I would say wine goes through fashionable periods just like everything else especially with the drink now cognoscenti.

Pinot Gris seems highly popular here now for some reason and Pinot Noir has been quite popular for a while.

Also NZ do a pretty good marketing job in the UK.

[John #11]

Some, if not most Aussie reds are evolving, and the Robert Parker factor is diminishing.

Heck, even a few Barossa reds are swapping intensity, and power for elegance.

For our OS readers, why don't you try a few of the following:

Any Grampians or Heathcote Shiraz
Any post-2000 Hunter Valley red
Any Yarra Valley shiraz
Any Canberra Shiraz-Viognier
Any Margaret River Cabernet
Any Yarra Valley, or Mornington, or Tasmanian Pinot
...
and too many more to mention.

...
and stop generalising about Aussie reds, cos the times they are a changing....

[Craig(NZ)]

Pinot Gris seems highly popular here now for some reason

no doubt it will come increasingly popular with the stunning quality of some of the 2007 examples

[beef]

For our OS readers, why don't you try a few of the following:

Any post-2000 Hunter Valley red

** Given your signature John, that was a very contradictory post

Stuart

[mychurch]

While I agree that for cetain wine lovers and writers, Auz might be out of fashion, I don't think thats true for wine drinkers.

A point thats worth considering for the future though is that in Europe (and presumably elsewhere) summers seem to be getting warmer and longer and the warmer it is, the more people want to drink whites and Rose - the style of wine that I think will continue to grow and grow in popularity. Sales of Rose are completely dependent on the levels of sunshine (no sun, no sale), and as the lead times for getting the wine from Auz (or any other Non EU country) are longer than the period a weather forcast is accurate for, I think the European wine industry could find itself with a winner on its hands.

I can see sales of white wines continuing to rise as well and I imagine wise vineyard owners will be trying to replace some of there red varieties with more exotic white wine varietals.

[Jay60A]

Some, if not most Aussie reds are evolving, and the Robert Parker factor is diminishing.

Heck, even a few Barossa reds are swapping intensity, and power for elegance.

For our OS readers, why don't you try a few of the following:

Any Grampians or Heathcote Shiraz
Any post-2000 Hunter Valley red
Any Yarra Valley shiraz
Any Canberra Shiraz-Viognier
Any Margaret River Cabernet
Any Yarra Valley, or Mornington, or Tasmanian Pinot
...
and too many more to mention.

...
and stop generalising about Aussie reds, cos the times they are a changing....

Really, are there good ones then?

Actually, what drives the cycles of wine fashion? Writers or consumers or wine lovers? I suspect a lot of journos hang out on this type of site and read what we write. Where does the fashion change start so that suddenly water (sorry, pinot gris ) is the next trendy varietal.

Cheers -- Jay.

[KMP]

If Jamie can do it then I want to make a little prediction about the fate of Aussie wines on international markets. Its true that the oomph seems to have gone out of Aussie wines, but I was just talking with a retailer on the weekend who is seeing great deals in the making because distributors have been caught out holding wines back while the importers are bringing in the latest vintages. At least in his case the problem is the allocation distributors offer retailers - he was telling them in 2007 that he could sell more but never got the stock he wanted. Now the distributors are after him to sell the previous vintages, and he is saying to them to make it worth his while to sell their wines. The deals are better than just good. He is selling the 2005 d’Arenberg The Dead Arm Shiraz for $40USD, while previous vintages sit on his shelves at $90USD!

There is still too much Aussie wine in the $30-60USD range, but I predict that those prices will have to be dropped, even if vintages are smaller over the last few years, because the market will simply not tolerate those prices anymore. There is too much good wine from elsewhere in the world, especially here in California. I'm willing to pay $50USD for top Syrah/Shiraz, but from California and Washington state where these wines are small production, small allocation, and have wish lists for allocation of the top wines. And they are excellent wines, I don't Parker or anyone else to tell me that.

Mike

[river]

Actually, what drives the cycles of wine fashion? Writers or consumers or wine lovers?

What drives it is fashion itself combined with marketing and consumer taste.

Let's take NZ Pinot Noir it's a relatively new wine for NZ to produce and it has a niche price point well below good French Burgundy.

It fit's in well with supermarket and cafe pricing and drinks well young. It's relatively new, affordable and approachable with the right marketing and some good articles in the right magazines it has the potential to be fashionable. Trendy restaurants and cafes start by adding it to their wine lists and soon it filters down to the supermarkets then it becomes the wine to buy ala fashionable.

Well that's my take on it, NZ Syrah is the one to watch I'm picking this will take off big time.

[Red Bigot]

Judging by the amount of imported reds being bought/drunk as posted by members of all the Oz wine forums, Australian red is pretty much out of fashion in some circles here as well.

Re NZ Syrah, from my limited experience, there are some pretty nice wines at the higher end, but they struggle to make wines with impact under about $30 compared to the big range of very drinkable and even cellarable Aus shiraz in that price range.

[Michael McNally]

I am no expert but my guess is that you are correct in assuming it has something to do with fashion - given the wines themselves have not changed dramatically (yes some are altering style a little, but that is not the issue here). Quality is not being questioned.

Some of what drives fashion is the search for something "new". Once something new is "old" it loses it shine (until it is really old then it becomes "venerated"). The big aussie reds are simply between new and old. If they maintain and continue to develop quality and can hang around they will eventually enter the traditional/venerated realm.

Also at work here I think might be the downside of ratcheting up prices for a number of years (at the top end of the market). That was okay while the wines were flavour of the month (pardon the pun), but will not be tolerated now they are not. Unfortunately the solution for these wines is not obvious. Any reduction in price is seen as an indicator of desperation and the market rejects that too, so some of these wines, and the companies that sell them, are truly between a rock and a hard place.

Let me know when Grange hits the $100 mark and I might buy a bottle.

My 2c

Michael

[river]

Re NZ Syrah, from my limited experience, there are some pretty nice wines at the higher end, but they struggle to make wines with impact under about $30 compared to the big range of very drinkable and even cellarable Aus shiraz in that price range.

That's a valid point, price wise NZ can't compete with Aus on Shiraz that's why we have called it Syrah and added $20 to the price.

[Jay60A]

Some of what drives fashion is the search for something "new". Once something new is "old" it loses it shine (until it is really old then it becomes "venerated"). The big aussie reds are simply between new and old. If they maintain and continue to develop quality and can hang around they will eventually enter the traditional/venerated realm.

Also at work here I think might be the downside of ratcheting up prices for a number of years (at the top end of the market). That was okay while the wines were flavour of the month (pardon the pun), but will not be tolerated now they are not. Unfortunately the solution for these wines is not obvious. Any reduction in price is seen as an indicator of desperation and the market rejects that too, so some of these wines, and the companies that sell them, are truly between a rock and a hard place.

Let me know when Grange hits the $100 mark and I might buy a bottle.

My 2c

Michael

Debasing the brands is a big problem as what do you build from? Before you'd buy Bin 389, Bin 28, Limestone Ridge, Wynns BL etc in great vintages and get very good wines, great QPR. Now you cannot get that unless you know the smaller labels as people in the forum do.

I'm just thinking out loud as living in the UK, you get a different perspective from Oz/NZ where there is sweet fa competition from european wines.

And $100 for Grange = bargain? I'll buy 04 Grange (it will be a great) at about $250-$300 in the UK. Fair value if it hits levels of 90 or 96 Grange.

But yeah ... a lot of truth there. Australia is not communicating anything new about it's wines (it may be trying but it's not being heard). What message is it saying right now?

Jay.

[Craig(NZ)]

Re NZ Syrah, from my limited experience, there are some pretty nice wines at the higher end, but they struggle to make wines with impact under about $30 compared to the big range of very drinkable and even cellarable Aus shiraz in that price range.

here I have to agree.

you dont find any nz syrah competing with the likes of wynns coonawarra shiraz at $13 on special in nz, and to go further even at the over $30 price point there are only a few (though increasing number) of nz syrah that compete with aussies at the same price points.

i do however hold out much hope for nz syrahs ability to cellar...will be interesting to see the best of them in 10 years time

[mychurch]

Think its wishfull thinking to consider New Zealand Pinot or Syrah one of the next big things. The Pinot in particular has been around for ages - great memories of the 1991 Martinborough Vineyard Pinot Noir which was sold by Bottoms up in the UK. Craggy range and Selini are the only 2 Syrah wines that are really sold here in the Netherlands (both in small quantities) and while they are both ok, they are not remotely in the league of top Auz, French, American or even Swiss Syrah.

A friend of mine is sommelier at a good restaurant in Leiden that has a fantastic wine list, and his number 1 seller is still New Zealand Sauvingon Blanc and he doesn't expect that to change soon. Nice niche market, but must be a long term worry for New Zealand wine makers.

In the top restaurants here at the moment, Austrian and German reds are still in fashion and while a Baden Pinot Noir can be quite light and delicate, an Austrian Zwiegelt blend can be a pretty big wine.

Journalists of course have a habit of promoting and talking up what people are trying to sell and so how the Australian dollar has done against the Euro of the Pound recently must have had an effect on things. Argentina and Chile seem to be getting good press, and its no co-incidence that these are also sold in US dollars.

[Ian S]

Also at work here I think might be the downside of ratcheting up prices for a number of years (at the top end of the market).

...

Let me know when Grange hits the $100 mark and I might buy a bottle.



Michael

A good example - I recall Grange at £25 a bottle in 1990 (when I first encountered it). Others recall it a couple of years earlier at £15. With inflation that might put it at, perhaps, £40-£60 a bottle. There are plenty of other examples, including the flip side of debased brands.

Australia was lucky to have
- Great value wines
- A willing champion in Oddbins
- Something new to offer the market
- A more than able UK marketing effort
- A market on the up

_ The great value is now (on average) fair value
_ Oddbins is dead in the water and no other major chain is championing great aussie wine
_ In some quarters there is a backlash (the Jacobs Creek / Yellow Tail effect)
_ Marketing isn't what it was - visible but not prominant
_ Market seems buoyant enough, but now clearly two-tiered between the supermarket / big chains and the small independants

Two options IMO
1) Address some of the issues above and/or
2) Push hard on emerging markets, especially Asia, where there is a rare geographical advantage

[Mike Hawkins]

The things I'm hearing over here:-

- High alcohol RP wines wont cellar. Why drop USD100 on a bottle that'll be dead in a few years (not my opinion, but ...)

- Other regions have implemented more effective marketing campaigns. We had a monopoly on this in years gone by.

- Aussie Cabernet is thought to be rubbish (again, not my opinion)

- Old world is suddenly cool again.

[craig loves shiraz]

I think it's pretty simple. Two things:

1. It's the same thing we complain about here all the time. Our winemakers are simply becoming to greedy and charging to much for their product. In a market that has a lot more choice than we do here, charging >$25 GBP a bottle is getting beyond most people's normal buying range.
2. The devaluation of our brands by the likes of South corp buying up every winery that has a good reputation and then producing crap wines under those labels has erroded consumer confidence.

[Red Bigot]

I think it's pretty simple. Two things:

1. It's the same thing we complain about here all the time. Our winemakers are simply becoming to greedy and charging to much for their product. In a market that has a lot more choice than we do here, charging >$25 GBP a bottle is getting beyond most people's normal buying range.

I don't know where you've been the last 5 years or so, but from my viewpoint (red) wine drinkers have had a dream run where there have been some pretty good vintages and where the wine glut has kept prices of many desirable wines pretty static. In fact I just bought the 2004 vintage of a wine I buy most vintages for a few dollars per bottle less than I bought the 1996 vintage back in 98 or 99. Sure there have been some increases by some high-flyers, but in general prices have been pretty static in the under-$40 range for some years now. That's just about coming to an end as the glut drains away and so prices on many wines will increase. Luckily there are so many wineries and there is always some good wine available at a reasonable price to replace those that do increase over the mystical personal QPR cut-off point.

2. The devaluation of our brands by the likes of South corp buying up every winery that has a good reputation and then producing crap wines under those labels has erroded consumer confidence.

A bit of an exaggeration surely. Yes, they've bought a few over the years and not all of them have turned to crap either. Southcorp and the majors may have a lot of brands, many of them could be called "industrial swill" and many of their best wines are out of my buying range these days, but that's not really a problem, I just find a replacement, usually from one of the large number of smaller makers who still regularly turn out good wines at fair prices. There are so many good wines from the recent good vintages from all over Australia it's beyond my capabilities to keep up with them all and I'm blessed with choice of wines at prices I can still afford.

[craig loves shiraz]

I don't know where you've been the last 5 years or so, but from my viewpoint (red) wine drinkers have had a dream run where there have been some pretty good vintages and where the wine glut has kept prices of many desirable wines pretty static. In fact I just bought the 2004 vintage of a wine I buy most vintages for a few dollars per bottle less than I bought the 1996 vintage back in 98 or 99. Sure there have been some increases by some high-flyers, but in general prices have been pretty static in the under-$40 range for some years now. That's just about coming to an end as the glut drains away and so prices on many wines will increase. Luckily there are so many wineries and there is always some good wine available at a reasonable price to replace those that do increase over the mystical personal QPR cut-off point.

Don't see it that way. What I do see is a lot of wineries producing a couple of good wines and then marking up the cost of all of their wines the following vintage whether they be as good or not.

A bit of an exaggeration surely. Yes, they've bought a few over the years and not all of them have turned to crap either. Southcorp and the majors may have a lot of brands, many of them could be called "industrial swill" and many of their best wines are out of my buying range these days, but that's not really a problem, I just find a replacement, usually from one of the large number of smaller makers who still regularly turn out good wines at fair prices. There are so many good wines from the recent good vintages from all over Australia it's beyond my capabilities to keep up with them all and I'm blessed with choice of wines at prices I can still afford.

If that's your opinion, you're more than entitled to it. I'm yet to see South corp bring about an increase in quality or decrease in cost from any of the wineries/brands they have brought. If anything, they've done the opposite.

[Daryl Douglas]

Perhaps there are many reasons but the fact that many producers decided to produce wines primarily for the US market, at prices I and many others refuse to pay, seems to have resulted in a sense of "sameness" of all Oz wines in that market, particularly shiraz. And yes, fashion is a major determinant, eg SB/SBS/SSB seem to be challenging chard as the preferred white tipple of many women - and I'm seriously not being sexist in saying that - I don't mind the occasional good example myself. Southcorp didn't do any favours for the image of Oz wines in the UK either.

daz

[Ian S]

Craig, Brian
If anything I veer slightly towards Craig on this. There are just too many instances over the years of labels reputations being destroyed under 'corporate' ownership. This isn't restricted to wine of course and there are instances where corporates do nicely out of this (asset stripping can be profitable) and instances where they get it completely wrong and card a huge loss (Castel > Oddbins in the UK is looking that way). There are certainly some awful instances where a proud and successful company has been reduced to the base level in the market, with the corporation failing to make the profit they banked on.

There are however also instances where a parent company handles the subsiduary with greater understanding and acts as a great enabler for that subsiduary to shine in it's own right and to see a wider audience. Maybe Cloudy Bay is a success story here - I'm sure it is financially for LVMH.

Maybe Wynns is another interesting case, where the introduction of mechanical harvesting etc. damaged the vineyards, but that the corporation stumped up the cash to turn it around. If an independant company was in that position, they may have to take out a substantial loan or delay the improvements.

So IMO a mixed bag and on balance the corporates haven't got a great record. FWIW I have more faith in Fosters wine group than I had in the Rosemount managed Southcorp.

regards

Ian

[Daryl Douglas]

So IMO a mixed bag and on balance the corporates haven't got a great record. FWIW I have more faith in Fosters wine group than I had in the Rosemount managed Southcorp.

regards

Ian

Yair, well, Southmount is probably in the crosshairs of many here. I have little more faith in Fosters' management of it's wine resources than I had in it's precursor. Perhaps Wynns is a label that's profitable for it, even after the massive discounting of the "Black Label" that's now crept back up to $25-$30. The 03-05s were good value for $17-$20. At $25 I prefer Polleter's Cab 05 and am increasingly looking to the smaller, "boutique?" wineries/winemakers/vintners who supply wines that offer some individuality and very good quality. That's mostly because of the forums I frequent. Winepros got me on the road initially and I still lament the demise of that info resource - Halliday's current online Winecompanion offering is but a shadow of Winepros but commercial/financial reality usually prevails.

As all here surely do, I seek wines that suit my palate and have real character.

daz

BTW GW, vintner is a term that also applies to winemakers, and yes, I can be a smartarse too
http://www.yourdictionary.com/vintner

[Red Bigot]

I don't know where you've been the last 5 years or so, but from my viewpoint (red) wine drinkers have had a dream run where there have been some pretty good vintages and where the wine glut has kept prices of many desirable wines pretty static. In fact I just bought the 2004 vintage of a wine I buy most vintages for a few dollars per bottle less than I bought the 1996 vintage back in 98 or 99. Sure there have been some increases by some high-flyers, but in general prices have been pretty static in the under-$40 range for some years now. That's just about coming to an end as the glut drains away and so prices on many wines will increase. Luckily there are so many wineries and there is always some good wine available at a reasonable price to replace those that do increase over the mystical personal QPR cut-off point.

Don't see it that way. What I do see is a lot of wineries producing a couple of good wines and then marking up the cost of all of their wines the following vintage whether they be as good or not.

A bit of an exaggeration surely. Yes, they've bought a few over the years and not all of them have turned to crap either. Southcorp and the majors may have a lot of brands, many of them could be called "industrial swill" and many of their best wines are out of my buying range these days, but that's not really a problem, I just find a replacement, usually from one of the large number of smaller makers who still regularly turn out good wines at fair prices. There are so many good wines from the recent good vintages from all over Australia it's beyond my capabilities to keep up with them all and I'm blessed with choice of wines at prices I can still afford.

If that's your opinion, you're more than entitled to it. I'm yet to see South corp bring about an increase in quality or decrease in cost from any of the wineries/brands they have brought. If anything, they've done the opposite.

Craig, we are obviously looking at different wineries / wines and I've looked at a lot of wines pretty well every day for the last 5 years. Then again, when a wine/winery goes above my perception of a good QPR level, I just move on and find something else to fill the gap, that happened a lot for most of the big companies a long time ago when they upped the prices of their $30-$40 wines to $60 and then $90 and more. Not that many have dropped off in the past few years, but I expect more to drop off in the next year or two as price increases accelerate.

If you subscribe to Jeremy Oliver, he has an interesting article dated 16/12/07 and titled "It's high time Australian wine was priced properly" exhorting Australian producers to re-consider their pricing models and strategies. "In 2008 there is no room for the old-fashioned sentimentality that has hitherto determined the prices for which Australian wine is bought and sold. In fact, unless much of the wine industry thoroughly redresses its approach to price, it will slowly, but surely fade away."

Re Exaggeration, I was referring to "buying up every winery that has a good reputation" (obiously not close to being true) and "then producing crap wines", which is a bit different from "increasing price and not increasing quality".

I don't have any Southcorp barrow to push, their products don't feature much in my purchases over the past few years and is rapidly diminishing as a % in my cellar.

[marsalla]

I am no fan of Fosters, quite the opposite in fact, but I would say that the quality of Coldstream and Devils Lair has at least been maintained, if not improved since Southcorp originally bought them.

Its easy to bag the corporates, ( I know, I do it all the time), but thats the nature of wine companies. Whenever corporates merge there is always a few labels that die, think of Woodleys, thats just the way it goes. There is always another new wine coming through.

As for the Wynns case, it was minimal pruning and irrigation upgrades that was improved, not machine harvesting. And it was Phillip Shaw who directed that, and you couldnt get more Rosemount then that.

Cheers

[craig loves shiraz]

Craig, we are obviously looking at different wineries / wines and I've looked at a lot of wines pretty well every day for the last 5 years. Then again, when a wine/winery goes above my perception of a good QPR level, I just move on and find something else to fill the gap, that happened a lot for most of the big companies a long time ago when they upped the prices of their $30-$40 wines to $60 and then $90 and more. Not that many have dropped off in the past few years, but I expect more to drop off in the next year or two as price increases accelerate.

If you subscribe to Jeremy Oliver, he has an interesting article dated 16/12/07 and titled "It's high time Australian wine was priced properly" exhorting Australian producers to re-consider their pricing models and strategies. "In 2008 there is no room for the old-fashioned sentimentality that has hitherto determined the prices for which Australian wine is bought and sold. In fact, unless much of the wine industry thoroughly redresses its approach to price, it will slowly, but surely fade away."

Re Exaggeration, I was referring to "buying up every winery that has a good reputation" (obiously not close to being true) and "then producing crap wines", which is a bit different from "increasing price and not increasing quality".

I don't have any Southcorp barrow to push, their products don't feature much in my purchases over the past few years and is rapidly diminishing as a % in my cellar.

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying there. I guess I may have "generalised" a little, but I still think the argument holds true. Wines are being sold at inflated prices. Both major commercial producers and smaller wineries too are guilty of inflating their prices based on their reputation and previous vintages. Thus devaluing their own brand. Never a good idea in a market where your brand is everything. Though the majors seem to be more methodical, delibrate and consistant about it than smaller independents, they're both guilty.

FWIW, I think wine makers are artisans and not factory foremen/women. You can't produce a production line of Picasso's, Nor can you produce a production line of fine wine. Large corporate type structures do not assist the artist in creating their product IMHO.

[n4sir]

As for the Wynns case, it was minimal pruning and irrigation upgrades that was improved, not machine harvesting. And it was Phillip Shaw who directed that, and you couldnt get more Rosemount then that.

I think that could be arguable - I heard Sue Hodder had been pleading for changes for years, and it was the increasing non-productivity of Wynn's vines that finally forced the issue until finally the chainsaws & bulldozers were called in.

Cheers,
Ian