Installation of Cellar A/C

[Paullie]

For anyone that migh be interested, after considerable research I am putting in on Monday the following:

- Daikin 1.5HP Cooling Only Non-Inverter (model FTD35F), and
- Daikin Wiring Adaptor for Stop/Start Interface (model KRP413A1S).

The wiring adaptor is a PCB thats fits into the head unit and allows me to control the unit (on/off) via a dry contact which I connect to my Winland DPM-4 Cellar Monitoring Panel temperature zone.

I'm still waiting on the Windland time delay part, which I should get this week as well. That allows me to add hysteresis to the control loop, basically so the A/C doesn't start and stop continuously around the setpoint.

I have also acquired service manuals for Daikin.

I have the schematic and electrical equation for the room temperature input.

All you have to do is change a resistor out to trick the unit.

If anyone wants it, just holla.

[Teddy]

Hi Paulli, just a quick question, in your cooling research, did you look into the fondis cooling systems?. Im about to build a new house with a climate controlled cellar and at this stage im going to install a fondis 18. have you had any info on this product.

Regards
Trev

[Paullie]

Yes. I was quoted a Fondis split for my cellar because it is underground, I needed to be able to locate the compressor remotely.

It was going to cost me more than $5,000 by the time I brought it over, find someone to install it etc. probably more than 5k.

So price came into consideration for sure, also spare parts, warranty claim issues, turn around time not only on ordering, but delivery of spare parts etc. Local hand on knowledge... etc.

Yes a Fondis can cool down to 12degC, but is that necessary for keeping wines from 5-10 years, no it isn't. I will be able to minimally keep my cellar between 16-18 degrees throughout the year, and possibly less, maybe 15-17, I think that will be possible.

RB has a split in his cellar, and it cools down to 16degC...

People talk about humidity as well, and it is very important. My cellar sits on 70% + humidity (passive/underground). I have noticed that when I have the exhaust fan running, it pulls the humidity up because it draws in nice moist air from outside through the vent. I will run the fan on an auto timer at the coolest times of the day (6am), for 15-20 min to bring in some moist air but also to bring in fresh air. I will see how that goes. Failing that, there are ways to increase humidity.

Hope that helps. I think each installation has to be looked at individually, there are never two the same.

If I'm completely wrong and the split is a disaster, I pull it out, sell it for almost what I paid, and install a Fondis, easy as that. But I have spent almost 2 years (and a lot of people can tell you that) experimenting with my cellar etc. getting as much information from as many people as I could. I know this is the right decision. I'll let you know the result.

[dazza1968]

I have a daikin 1.5 split in my cellar and has been in there running for 5 Years now and the only negative that has occurred is a blocked drain pipe and thats all , wine is at 18 degrees allyear round , in winter it drops slightly from that, humidity is always around 70 % and i do keep a bucket of water in the corner to help out...I read and investigated alot of units decided the have great back up support so if an thing did go wrong i was covered All books i have read about temperature control in a cellar say as long as the temp is stable that is what is critical. wine is keeping well

[Paullie]

Excellent dazza.

Underground cellar?
Volume of cellar?

[dazza1968]

Excellent dazza.

Underground cellar?
Volume of cellar?

Cellar is underground built into limestonefootings and currently has capacity for 1700 bottles , I have worked hard filling it up but what goes in one end comes out the other., Great air cond !!!!

[Rednick]

I have a daikin 1.5 split in my cellar

Is this just a standard Daikin or have you had to "trick it out" as Paullie has done? Do you have it running on a timer?

I'm looking at putting a small cellar (around 1000 bottles) into my garage (using insulation and plasterboard) but the idea of having to tinker with an aircon unit is steering me towards a custom unit such as Eidis, Kirby or Fondis.

Cheers

Nick

[Paullie]

I'm not modifying the Daikin beyond anything the manufacturer does not recommend.

The extra board I am installing is a Daiking PCB.

I did find information about modifying the temperature feedback loop, but I will not be doing this initially.

I dont think I will need to because in my case, the temperature in the cellar will always be a few degrees colder than that in the staircase which is where the A/C head unit is.

[ufo]

Well, from my experience, you don't even need a split airconditioner. As long as you got good location and insulation a small window airconditioner is good enough. I've got semi-underground cellar, it is well insulated, hovers around 13-14 Degrees during cool months naturally.When temperature starts going up, at around 17-18 degrees, I trun the AC on and it keeps it around 17-18 degrees even during hottest days when outside temperature is well above 30 degrees. Also humidity is around 70-80 % without any additional equipment or water bucket.

[ufo]

In addition, it is not a small cellar, at the moment have more than 1000 bottles and it is half empty

[Paullie]

A wall mounted air con is fine if your cellar backs on to the outside of the house. Mine does not, therefore I need the compressor to be installed remotely.

Ever thought about using a thermostat to turn the a/c on for you as required?

[dazza1968]

I have a daikin 1.5 split in my cellar

Is this just a standard Daikin or have you had to "trick it out" as Paullie has done? Do you have it running on a timer?

I'm looking at putting a small cellar (around 1000 bottles) into my garage (using insulation and plasterboard) but the idea of having to tinker with an aircon unit is steering me towards a custom unit such as Eidis, Kirby or Fondis.

Cheers

Nick

M air cond is standard with out any heating option , a friend of mine fitted it and i have it running all year round as in winter it stillcirculates the air and controls humidity ,i must say i am wrapped with it and i was concerned with some people saing it needed to be colder but when you look into all the cellar books temp control is critical to looking after our collection and the other thing i learnt was the bottle is also a great insulator anyway..............Hope that helps Dazza

[dazza1968]

What i meant b the heating was i gota unit without that option on it asi have kids and wanted to negate any option of plating with the remote , The air cond has not been tricked up

[Paullie]

Good idea, I also opted for cooling only dazz. Removes the possibility of any mishaps.

[dazza1968]

Good idea, I also opted for cooling only dazz. Removes the possibility of any mishaps.

Yes with kids around you never know and i dont go in there that often so i would hate to see what would happen if heated at 30 degrees for a week!!! So peace of mind prevailed Good luck with it

[Paullie]

Thanks, goes in on Monday.

[craig loves shiraz]

100mm sandwich panel will also do your cellar a world of good. May not even require conditioning..... And if it does, at the very least it will cut your electricity consumption by about 70%.

[Paullie]

It is underground and insulated, I don't expect the cooler to run often at all.

[Paullie]

A/C goes in today.

[dazza1968]

A/C goes in today.

Fantastic hope ou get as good a run as i have had!!!

[Paullie]

ok its all in and running, my panel controls the a/c perfectly, exactly as planned, worked first time too.

Just cooling now.

[Paullie]

Here are the days temperature readings in Perth from the BOM.

24/05:00pm 34.7
24/04:30pm 36.4
24/04:00pm 37.1
24/03:30pm 37.5
24/03:00pm 37.6
24/02:30pm 37.5
24/02:00pm 37.2
24/01:30pm 37
24/01:00pm 36.4
24/12:30pm 35.5
24/12:00pm 34.9
24/11:30am 34.1
24/11:00am 32.8
24/10:30am 31.2
24/10:00am 28.9
24/09:30am 26.9
24/09:00am 24.9
24/08:30am 23.7
24/08:00am 22.5
24/07:30am 21.6
24/07:00am 21
24/06:30am 21.3
24/06:00am 21.5
24/05:30am 21.9
24/05:00am 22.2
24/04:30am 22.4
24/04:00am 23.1
24/03:30am 23.1
24/03:00am 24.1
24/02:30am 24.5
24/02:00am 25.3
24/01:30am 25.9
24/01:00am 25.9
24/12:30am 23.9
24/12:00am 24.2


Here is my cellar (ignore the first 20 or so minutes for the sensors to re adjust to cellar conditions):

[plummy]

Hi Paullie
I, like you, have a Daikin air con 1HP FTKE25BVM cooling only as a climate control for my new cellar (which is small). The installers were somewhat unhelpful when I asked for the temperature to be lowered. All they could offer is for the fan to run continuously at a higher speed. It lowered the temp to 19.5 degrees but I'm unhappy with the wind from the unit drying out the corks not to mention I would like the temp lower.
Any info and help would be most appreciated.
Plummy in Perth

[Duncan]

I'm about to install a cellar in the above-gound garage. 3x2m, using cool-room panels. I was going to go for a Mitsubishi unit set at 16C, cooling only (though it can get to 2C at night, 10C day). Any thoughts ?

[Davo]

Dunc, I put a Fujitsu r/c split inverter unit, which I think is about the smallest model of the range. My room is about the same size as yours but has no insulation. The unit is set at 18deg and keeps the room at 16.5 to 17.5 degrees, including over summer up here when we had that run of 35 to 40 deg days over Xmas. It cost about $1000 including installation.

You risk freezing the unit if you set at 16deg.

[plummy]

Duncan
The only thing I can quickly think of, is to ensure you have ventilation "ports" so that some fresh air can enter and stale air can exit. Entry point is low and exit point is high. Don't forget the insect screens as well. Hope this is helpful.
plummy

[Paullie]

plummy what dimensions is your cellar? where is the head unit located, what type of insulation/door etc. are you using? Where are you measuring the temperature, and how? Have you measured humidity?

My A/C is starting to be used less now that the cooler months are coming, which is great.

[plummy]

My cellar is located under the stairs, dimensions are 1990 x 2450 with a centre wall coming into the room so giving a 'U' shape. The floor was sunk 6 courses to give sufficient head room so there are three steps down into the cellar. The door is solid timber and painted to exclude humidity. The walls are double brick and back onto the garage so no sun gets anywhere near them. I have no other insulation. The head unit is just below ceiling height and located to blow across the widest point. I measure the temperature with a thermometer and an electronic gauge and the humidity with the electronic unit. The thermometer is half way from floor to ceiling directly in line with the head unit and the electronic unit two shelves higher. The lowest temperature has been 19.7 degrees and the humidity 60% by the electronic gauge and the thermometer shows a shade under 20 degrees so it measures the same.
I spoke recently to the air con installers and they were not helpful. Unfortunately I am very busy clearing out of the old house as it has been sold so I haven't had time to chase up the info you gave. Another 10 days and I will be free and clear of the old house (and probably exhausted!). Then I'll investigate further.

"My A/C is starting to be used less now that the cooler months are coming, which is great."

I would expect that with the cooler weather but I don't know if that is happening with my system as my monitoring system is very crude (so far). Once I get the computer hooked up I'll know better what's happening.
Regards

[plummy]

Paullie
I should add that the widest part of the cellar is the 1990 dimension with the intruding wall holding up the staircase dividing that dimension in half. It's a darn sight easier to draw it that describe it!
Regards