BYO trial

monghead · Post by **monghead** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:32 pm

Imagine you are restaurant owner, you employ a Wine Waiter/Sommelier and commit substantial sums of money to your beverage budget. You train your staff on how to pour, decant, describe and appreciate the wine that has been judiciously selected for your wine list. Then people arrive at your restaurant with Queen Adelaide Chardonnay, Hardy's RR or even Cleanskins!!.

jpengelly,

I think I covered this in my original post on this thread. I suggested that a reasonable corkage of $20-25 would deter a wynns shiraz BYO, and would certainly deter Queen Adelaide, cleanskins, etc. In an establishment that had employed a sommelier, and trained their staff in the service of wine, I honestly believe a reasonable corkage fee is warranted. Again, I think I suggested this in my initial post...

Here's a thought for restaurateurs, why not set the corkage at the price that would deter bottles you wouldn't want clientele to BYO?

I don't think anyone out there would BYO a bottle of wine less than the cost of BYO. Thus, if a restaurant wants to allow the calibre of wines through to special occassion wines only, and discourage BYO of quaffers, then set it at $30-50 per bottle! Give the diners a chance to decide on: quaffer with dinner (then wine list D'arry's original for $45 lets say) or something special (say, 96 Moss Wood Cabernet and bear the $40 corkage)...

Anyways,

Monghead.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:08 am

Red Bigot wrote:
If Claudes, Marque and Tetsuya in Sydney can do it for under $20 I can't see how $50 can be considered reasonable or a serious offer to allow byo.

BYO at Marque is now $30 pb, but It's worth the asking price even at $50

Paullie · Post by **Paullie** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:22 am

Why the hell would you pay $50 corkage?

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:03 am

Anything more than $10 and I'd be considering an AFD. I have paid $25, but it was a large group and we had fresh ridels with each wine.

The best restaurant around here (IMHO) doesn't allow BYO, has an average wine list and high mark-up. So I only go for brekkie.

Ian S · Post by **Ian S** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:00 am

Daniel
I think these responses give a clear view on your suggestion - effectively $50 corkage is approaching the same as no BYO. FWIW there are worse markups than $50 over here (indeed some much, much worse). However in Oz my impression is this would put you at the very top end - implying you like to make more money out of your customers than other good restaurants! This is likely to be counter-productive to your business.

Here's a more pragmatic option. Is there a quiet night of the week, where getting punters in is a bit of a struggle? If the answer is no, then whilst BYO might get more people in, it's not crucial, so less motivation to do it.

However if there is a quiet night, then set that up as a BYO optional night at a more respectable $20 a bottle. If you're providing suitable glasses (e.g. the cheap but regarded Riedel restaurant range, or equivalents), plus decanters, chilling and a degree of wine expertise, then IMO $20 is not unreasonable. If $10 gets more punters in the door, then it's probably worth dropping as low as that.

Or why not have an occasional 'wine night' where BYO is actively encouraged - maybe even at minimal corkage. Suggest that people bring along good bottles of wine and make a celebration evening out of it. What about $10 corkage for wines matching a pre-determined theme (e.g. Rhone & local Rhone blends) alllowing the chef to tailor the dishes to the majority of the wines that will be drunk. This might even allow the option of a set menu (or limited choice menu).

One alternative I hear of, is (reasonable) corkage if patrons act discreetly, bringing the bottle(s) in before service and not making a big scene about it. This may help filter out the cheapskates.

All this to me depends on the current status of the restauarant. If the order book is chocka for the next 3 weeks on every night of the week, then you've hit upon the right formula and don't need to pitch specifically for the wine geeks.

If you want to pitch for new clientele, don't do it in a half-hearted way. Indeed advertising $50 corkage might even alert existing customers to investigate the current markups on the winelist, with negative consequences.

I hope this helps

Ian

monghead · Post by **monghead** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:20 am

Why the hell would you pay $50 corkage?

So I don't have to pay $800-1500 for Grange, HOG, or first/second growth bordeaux from wine list, which I often see from lesser vintages...

monghead · Post by **monghead** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:41 am

Just to demonstrate, this weekend saw us attending a couple of group outings with non-wine friends who drank mainly beers, spirits, and cocktails. Both nights, we dined at non-BYO places.

2006 Escarpment Martinborough Pinot Noir- Paid $100 (costs $40-45 retail)
2001 Ata Rangi Pinot Noir- Paid $170 (costs $65-75 retail)
2004 Henschke Keyneton Estate Shiraz Cabernet Merlot- Paid $110 (costs $35-40 retail)

Looking at this, even if I had paid $50 corkage per bottle (who many think on this forum is excessive), I would have been at least $70 better off, and I could have been drinking the '91 or '96 Keyneton instead...

Cheers,

Monghead.

Paullie · Post by **Paullie** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:37 pm

So because they rip you off with menu wines, its ok to rip you off with BYO. pfft. Take a $400 Grange for them to charge you an eighth of what it is really worth, pfft.

About 0.004% of the population can even afford to go out and take Grange etc. to a dinner. It doesn't make sense for a restaurant to target such a small group of people.

Mong, I respect your point of view, but I'm afraid your a small %.

griff · Post by **griff** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:12 pm

Paullie wrote:So because they rip you off with menu wines, its ok to rip you off with BYO. pfft. Take a $400 Grange for them to charge you an eighth of what it is really worth, pfft.

About 0.004% of the population can even afford to go out and take Grange etc. to a dinner. It doesn't make sense for a restaurant to target such a small group of people.

Mong, I respect your point of view, but I'm afraid your a small %.

Don't qualify your percentages by saying "about" Paullie. Getting to three decimal places is pretty accurate :lol:

Most services target a subsection of the community. In general the fine diner targets a small section of the community with high disposable incomes so the line of reasoning that you are targeting a small section of the community is already occurring whether it is BYO or not. As long as you turn a profit it doesn't matter how small the target population is.

In response to the topic of the thread, I don't see the the harm of having a high BYO charge. As to what I would pay personally versus what is too much is a flexible line for me and depends on a lot of variables e.g. how much I wanted to try the food at that particular restaurant and if there was a particular wine that I wanted to bring (like an anniversary wine perhaps). $50 is steep for me however purely due to being used to having $20 as a ceiling. If all the competition started charging $50 then maybe I would think this normal however.

I don't like the some can and some can't situation. There should be one rule for all. I have in the past refused to go to a restaurant again that does this on principle when I heard a friend not being allowing to bring a wine to a particular restaurant that I recommended to him after going there myself and being allowed to BYO. I don't like inequity even if I am the one being privileged.

One suggestion that seems to occur in Sydney a fair bit is the BYO during the week (Mon/Tue to Thur) to boost covers on the low days. I find this a fair compromise myself. Not completely the punter's way and not completely the owner's way. We just ate at these restaurants on Thursdays

Good to see some restaurants in Perth starting to do the same. I also like the suggestion that BYO should only be wines that they don't have on the list. I think this should also be vintage specific i.e. if you want to bring an older/younger vintage of the same wine the restaurant is happy to allow you to do so.

cheers

Carl

Gary W · Post by **Gary W** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:30 pm

Most restaurants in Australia that offer no BYO generally have pretty dire lists. Current vintages marked up to the hilt, backvintages backfilled with off vintages - often from dodgy auction provenance. It is a much safer bet paying a higher byo to drink good wine (if you are fussed about such things). It is not like France where they often genuinely cellar wines from release and manage a real list - and often these come at fair prices. There are some good lists in Sydney that are an exception - Bentley Bar springs to mind - where the sommlier knows their stuff - but by and large the quality of winelists and those managing them are far from imaginative..yet you are expected to pay top whack....
GW

Ratcatcher · Post by **Ratcatcher** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:37 pm

I didn't read all the posts so I apologise if someone already said this:

My opinion is I hate huge mark ups on wines at restaurants because it means wine drinkers subsidise other diners. ie: we are paying so that the restaurant makes a big profit on wine and meals can therefore be cheaper. Therefore other diners are subsidised by me.

ie; I go to dinner with my wife. We order a $140 bottle of wine that retails for $80. The couple at the next table have 2 beers and 2 spirits or even worse 4 mineral waters. I bet they don't pay $60 over RRP for their 4 drinks yet the work in serving and glassware etc is the same. Different if you are talking about a 15 year old Bordeaux that has been cellared lovingly for 10 years but not a current release Aus wine.

Why should I pay $40 more than the other couple for the same service? So because of that $40 they make out of me they can keep food prices down which benefits non-wine drinking diners. Why do restaurants think it is OK to exploit wine drinkers more than other beverage drinkers?

Same goes for BYO. If the restaurant is not cellaring the wine and that cost does not have to be factored in then the corkage should be the same as the profit they make from selling 4 Crown Lagers.

Paullie · Post by **Paullie** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:37 pm

Good point GW, very good indeed.

Ratcatcher · Post by **Ratcatcher** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:57 pm

For example Daniel

For 750ml of Cascade Premium you charge $14.40 making $9- 10 profit on RRP.

For 750ml of current release D'Arry's Original you make $36 profit on RRP

Why does the wine drinker subsidise the beer drinker?

monghead · Post by **monghead** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:08 pm

Most restaurants in Australia that offer no BYO generally have pretty dire lists. Current vintages marked up to the hilt, backvintages backfilled with off vintages - often from dodgy auction provenance. It is a much safer bet paying a higher byo to drink good wine (if you are fussed about such things). It is not like France where they often genuinely cellar wines from release and manage a real list - and often these come at fair prices. There are some good lists in Sydney that are an exception - Bentley Bar springs to mind - where the sommlier knows their stuff - but by and large the quality of winelists and those managing them are far from imaginative..yet you are expected to pay top whack....
GW

Which is why I am saying I don't mind being "ripped off" with wine service/BYO fees. This way, I am ultimately paying the restaurant less, yet being able to drink what I want...

Disadvantage of this of course, is that if my bottle was a dud- corked/oxised/over the hill, I wouldn't get a replacement from the restaurant.

Monghead.

monghead · Post by **monghead** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:29 pm

Why should I pay $40 more than the other couple for the same service? So because of that $40 they make out of me they can keep food prices down which benefits non-wine drinking diners. Why do restaurants think it is OK to exploit wine drinkers more than other beverage drinkers?

I'm not sure if I agree here. A couple of points...

A restaurant should be able to stay afloat and generate a profit solely on it's food. I believe that if an establishment has to rely on it's ability to sell drinks to turn a profit let alone stay afloat, it is in dire trouble. This would certainly affect the integrity of the wine list, as the restaurant will thence chase the "best deals" offering them an opportunity for the highest mark-ups or profit margins. We would also see the ability of larger companies to offer their wines at a cheaper rate if the restaurant bought 80-100% of the wine list from them.

I'm not sure, but I thought the non-alcoholic beverages at restaurants generate similar incomes at the end of the day, as they sell alot more of it, and mark-ups are certainly much more extravagant. For example, I think most restaurants/cafes still get their coffee for free/nominal fee and yet charge up to $6 for an espresso don't they?

Anyways,

Monghead.

Gary W · Post by **Gary W** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:37 pm

monghead wrote:
Most restaurants in Australia that offer no BYO generally have pretty dire lists. Current vintages marked up to the hilt, backvintages backfilled with off vintages - often from dodgy auction provenance. It is a much safer bet paying a higher byo to drink good wine (if you are fussed about such things). It is not like France where they often genuinely cellar wines from release and manage a real list - and often these come at fair prices. There are some good lists in Sydney that are an exception - Bentley Bar springs to mind - where the sommlier knows their stuff - but by and large the quality of winelists and those managing them are far from imaginative..yet you are expected to pay top whack....
GW

Which is why I am saying I don't mind being "ripped off" with wine service/BYO fees. This way, I am ultimately paying the restaurant less, yet being able to drink what I want...

Disadvantage of this of course, is that if my bottle was a dud- corked/oxised/over the hill, I wouldn't get a replacement from the restaurant.

Monghead.

Which is why I am in full agreement with you..
GW

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:32 pm

I have to say that most restaurants' wine lists are boring at the least. the mark up does not bother me that much if it is backed by good quality service, good stemware. When I go to a restaurant, most of their wines on the list do not interest me, with the few that does, I have better vintages at home.

I am with Monghead about BYO. I have no problem paying $30 pb at Marque where I am getting good stemware, good decanter, good service and the most important great food by drinking aged Burgundy, Bordeaux and classic aged champagne.

Dave Dewhurst · Post by **Dave Dewhurst** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:26 pm

Ian S wrote: However if there is a quiet night, then set that up as a BYO optional night

Or why not have an occasional 'wine night' where BYO is actively encouraged - maybe even at minimal corkage.

I hope this helps

Ian

Yep, I think this is a really good idea. Some of the top restaurants in Perth are doing this. For example, Star Anise (no affiliation BTW

) does BYO on Tuesdays with no corkage, and last time I wanted to go on a Tuesday, I had to book 3 weeks in advance and then got the last table. Many of the top restaurants here are closed Monday and Tuesday I would guess is their next quietest night.

As a customer, when I do BYO like this, I still would buy something off the winelist, e.g. champers/manzanilla aperitif and/or sticky to finish, with a couple of BYO bottles along for the main ride!

Cheers

Dave

Matthew Moate · Post by **Matthew Moate** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:32 am

I think the $20 mark is fairly appropriate for corkage / service. But I also think that it is also polite to send a glass to the kitchen for the head Chef.

In regards to tipping I think this is fine. I've even tipped taxi drivers here in Australia if the service is right and especially if they get me to the airport in time for flights that I always seem to be late for.

And I ALWAYS tip concierge staff as I remember back when I did work experience at the Adelaide Hilton. I used to make around $40 - $80 a day and think that this money is good for them.

And I remember this one time where I carried about 50 boxes of paper up to a suite for this QC who was doing a big trial, he had his Bentley parked out the front (the rumour was he bought one for him and his wife). And then I got the job to bring all the boxes down the following two weeks later and never saw a tip. I'll never forget that. So that's why I tip.

Paullie · Post by **Paullie** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:39 am

oh Mat. thats low, I would have tipped you for sure.

Craig(NZ) · Post by **Craig(NZ)** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:55 am

I'll argue it at a price point roughly $50/btl corkage.

nothing advertises an "us and them" mentality better than this! perhaps you should work for the tax department??

Rednick · Post by **Rednick** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:36 am

I would think that a BYO charge of $20-$30 should be the maximum. To be fair to Daniel though the $50 charge was something suggested by other forumites in this previous thread

http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=7685

in response to the restaurants no BYO allowed policy.

Nick

Daniel Jess · Post by **Daniel Jess** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:59 pm

To be fair to Daniel though the $50 charge was something suggested by other forumites in this previous thread

Indeed it was, and I've been away with no ability to recuse myself! Anyway, that aside this thread was developed to get market information. And no, I'd rather not work for the tax office, thanggggggggggggkew!

Thanks all for their input - no matter how controversial, it's good to have it out there for analysis by all.

And don't stress, we won't be putting $50 charges anytime this decade. The owners and I have been keen to develop BYO for some time, but... we just weren't sure how to go about it (I've literally only ever worked in European and Australian restaurants that are BYO unfriendly, which is, in the first instance, why I have a job at all!). Don't hate me for putting the question out there - someone had to?

paulsa · Post by **paulsa** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:40 pm

Daniel Jess wrote:
To be fair to Daniel though the $50 charge was something suggested by other forumites in this previous thread

Indeed it was, and I've been away with no ability to recuse myself! Anyway, that aside this thread was developed to get market information. And no, I'd rather not work for the tax office, thanggggggggggggkew!

Thanks all for their input - no matter how controversial, it's good to have it out there for analysis by all.

And don't stress, we won't be putting $50 charges anytime this decade. The owners and I have been keen to develop BYO for some time, but... we just weren't sure how to go about it (I've literally only ever worked in European and Australian restaurants that are BYO unfriendly, which is, in the first instance, why I have a job at all!). Don't hate me for putting the question out there - someone had to?

Your business needs to compete with others, so I would assume your byo charge would need to be competitive as well.

Problem I find is that restaurant wine lists are often crap with the better bottles mostly too young & too expensive. Buying a bottle of 96 Grange for around $300- @ #Seven @ the Crown Melbourne and a 2002 Armagh for around $200- @ Euro in Auckland were good buys which don't happen very often. PS the Euro in Auckland was great & wine was the best we tried during our stay in Auckland after consuming much NZ stuff.

I would consider paying $50 byo charge if bringing a top wine eg. Grange, other top Pennies, HOG, Frog stuff, etc, subject to quality glassware, etc. However, I would not always bring such bottles and I would not pay $50 to bring wine which I buy under $100/bottle.

I would consider paying $15 to $30 if bringing other wines such as Rockford, Torbreck, Henschke, etc, depending on the quality off food, etc. A $15 to $30 byo charge would eliminate those wanting to bring in cask wine.

Whilst some other would, I would not wear a Panda outfit to get free byo! LOL

Wayno · Post by **Wayno** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:02 pm

Daniel Jess wrote:
Don't hate me for putting the question out there - someone had to?

One of the fascinating and compelling questions of our time.

Dr - 307 · Post by **Dr - 307** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 pm

Why is it that restaurants feel free to charge 3-4 times the retail price of a bottle. I don't know and I don't understand. Food is the first thing that springs to mind when I think about going to a restaurant. I go to a restaurant because I'm hungry, not because I'm thirsty. So why is the drink so hiked up. I want to speak to the manager.
Mr Manager sir, why are you charging me through the nose for a bottle of wine? Please educate me so that I can better understand your plight.

Santa · Post by **Santa** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:59 pm

When I visit a restaurant of this calibre with the option of BYO, I take along a special bottle of red and am comfortable with a $15-$20 corkage charge. For that, I would expect decantering of the wine and quality stemware.

Kudos to you Daniel for having the gonads to start this informative thread.

Maria

Daniel Jess · Post by **Daniel Jess** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:44 pm

Thanks Maria, it has become a valuable (but very controversial!) thread.

Honestly, it's given a very sound record of what average price guests, who are wine lovers and know wine well, would expend on BYO services - something that would otherwise have taken weeks to evaluate. To that end, thank you all.

Popov · Post by **Popov** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:18 pm

Here is my take on things by way of example.
Back in 2003 someone I know :wink:

was going to propose and thought it would be great to go back to the restaurant where we went for our first date (The Point). So I rang the restaurant and explained what I was doing and that I had a couple of special bottles I wanted to bring and open (ie. '95 Dom and '99 RWT) and told them I would be happy to bring them in earlier so no one was the wiser and pay a large corkage fee. After being flat out rejected, I looked elsewhere and ended up speaking to Radii @ the Park Hyatt. They were more than accommodating and happy to help so we ended up booking a night at the Park Hyatt as well and they handled everything perfectly on the night.
We had always said that The Point was somewhere we would like to be married but after this we never gave it a look and have in fact never been back.
So their strict policy cost them a wedding and a dinner reservation on our anniversary every year thereafter.
Something for restaurants to think about when they reject people for wanting to bring a nice bottle on a special occasion.

Cheers
Popov

Daniel Jess · Post by **Daniel Jess** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:42 pm

Point taken well, Popov. After much thinking, I get strong feelings the restaurant industry in Australia teaches it's staff bad habits like being overly firm on matters like you mentioned. I admit I've never really looked at the problem from the many (varied) perspectives given in this thread. Beginning to wonder why I never did before...