Replacing corks with crown seals?

[bacchaebabe]

I haven't had a lot of spare time lately so haven't visited here that much of late but just had a chance to read thruogh some old posts. In particular I was reading all about the Adelaide offline at Soho and the various comments on the Rockford sparkling black and the well know cork issues with this wine.

It got me wondering if it is possible to replace the cork with a crown seal. Having dabbled in home brewing (as you do), I have a crown seal machiny thing and I could probably find some bottle caps if I looked hard enough.

So the question is, is it actually feasible to remove the corks almost immediately on arrival and shove a crown seal on instead?

Obviously this addresses the issues of dodgy corks, taint and leakage but do you lose too many bubbles and does it then increase the chance of oxidation or change the whole chemistry of whatever goes on in the bottle with sparkling wines?

Thinking about it a little further, a bottle sealed with cork is probably not the right shape at the lip to take a crown seal but does anyone know if it's actually feasible or is it too late to reseal once it's been opened (in terms of long term storage rather than a couple of days)?

[beef]

Obviously this addresses the issues of dodgy corks, taint and leakage but do you lose too many bubbles and does it then increase the chance of oxidation or change the whole chemistry of whatever goes on in the bottle with sparkling wines?

** How exactly would this address the issue of cork taint?

Stuart

[griff]

Good topic!

I left my bottler in Sydney. Maybe it is worth checking on an empty that it seals well. Considering that they use crowns while the wine is on lees it should be the right. You need the 29mm seals. Depending on your bottler you might need a bigger attachment as the wine caps are wider than beer caps. Should be available at the home brew store.

As for the issue of pressure loss that will definitely be the case. There is a pressure drop after disgorgement (from 7.5 to 5 atmospheres or from about 700-800 kPa to 500-600 kPa) so I suspect there will be when re-bottling as well. The question is would it be significant though. As there is pressure variation between bottles you would need to experiment. Pick a cheapie to start with perhaps!

I'm sure some winemakers out there could assist?

cheers

Carl

[GRB]

You could get around the pressure loss thing by chilling the bottle to a couple of degree's, trick here is don't freeze them. Taint would still be an issue as that can be picked up in a matter of days. One thing that might be a problem though is the greater head space having an impact on oxidization but given that it has quite an amount of CO2 in it you might be OK.

Might just be easier to keep hassling Rockford to go to crown seal

Glen

[Red Bigot]

Obviously this addresses the issues of dodgy corks, taint and leakage but do you lose too many bubbles and does it then increase the chance of oxidation or change the whole chemistry of whatever goes on in the bottle with sparkling wines?

** How exactly would this address the issue of cork taint?

Stuart

Yeah, last year at Xanadu they showed us a barrel sample that had been put in bottle two days before and sealed with a cork. The wine was rank with TCA after that short time.

[beef]

You could get around the pressure loss thing by chilling the bottle to a couple of degree's, trick here is don't freeze them. Taint would still be an issue as that can be picked up in a matter of days. One thing that might be a problem though is the greater head space having an impact on oxidization but given that it has quite an amount of CO2 in it you might be OK.

Might just be easier to keep hassling Rockford to go to crown seal

Glen

** Are many people actively doing this? Or are some people just silently refusing to buy the Sparkling Black on the basis of crap corks?

I am not yet a Stonewaller, but when I become one, I will write to Rockford every year at mailing list time, and tell them that I love the flavours of the Sparkling Black, but cannot bring myself to purchase any, until such time as a crown seal is employed in their bottling.

If everyone of similar mind did the same, and wrote the same letter, I think the good people of Rockford would soon pay attention.

[TORB]

Beef,

Good idea but they keep selling out quickly, so from their perspective, it makes no difference. Robert is adamant that he will stick with corks on the Black.

[beef]

Beef,

Good idea but they keep selling out quickly, so from their perspective, it makes no difference. Robert is adamant that he will stick with corks on the Black.

** They need to realise that it does still make a difference. Sure, the Black might sell out quickly right now, but I assume they want to keep it that way. If enough consumers complain about the corks, and do so loudly enough that both Rockford and the wine buying public can hear, then damage will be done to Rockford's reputation, causing their popularity to fall.

Thing is, that won't affect sales right away. There's enough inertia behind the label to perpetuate full sales for many years to come. They can't afford to wait for the eventual drop in sales before doing something, however. Because by that time, consumers will have already soured on the brand, and they'll no longer be an icon of Australian wine.

Or maybe everything will stay rosy. But they need to acknowledge the risks. And with enough voices, I reckon we could convince them.

Stuart

[GraemeG]

Obviously this addresses the issues of dodgy corks, taint and leakage but do you lose too many bubbles and does it then increase the chance of oxidation or change the whole chemistry of whatever goes on in the bottle with sparkling wines?

** How exactly would this address the issue of cork taint?

Stuart

I think Kris is aiming to fix the leaking/oxidation problem, not address TCA.
cheers,
Graeme

[Wayno]

As much as I dislike Rockford's stance about the cork seals on the Black Shiraz, I must say from my limited experience, the leaking corks haven't made much difference to the quality of the wine (although I suppose it's hard to compare). I've seen but two leaking corks on older bottles of this (97 and 95 disgorgements from memory) but both have been brilliant, better (complexity-wise at least) than their younger non-leaking cousins.

[bacchaebabe]

Obviously this addresses the issues of dodgy corks, taint and leakage but do you lose too many bubbles and does it then increase the chance of oxidation or change the whole chemistry of whatever goes on in the bottle with sparkling wines?

** How exactly would this address the issue of cork taint?

Stuart

I think Kris is aiming to fix the leaking/oxidation problem, not address TCA.
cheers,
Graeme

Actually, I was stupidly thinking that if there was mild taint in the cork, if you got it out quick enough after bottling, the effect wouldn't be as bad or potentially resolved but Brian set me straight on that one!

[Davo]

Beef,

Good idea but they keep selling out quickly, so from their perspective, it makes no difference. Robert is adamant that he will stick with corks on the Black.

** They need to realise that it does still make a difference. Sure, the Black might sell out quickly right now, but I assume they want to keep it that way. If enough consumers complain about the corks, and do so loudly enough that both Rockford and the wine buying public can hear, then damage will be done to Rockford's reputation, causing their popularity to fall.

Thing is, that won't affect sales right away. There's enough inertia behind the label to perpetuate full sales for many years to come. They can't afford to wait for the eventual drop in sales before doing something, however. Because by that time, consumers will have already soured on the brand, and they'll no longer be an icon of Australian wine.

Or maybe everything will stay rosy. But they need to acknowledge the risks. And with enough voices, I reckon we could convince them.

Stuart

Sorry, but this is absolute dribble.

Why concentrate on 1 maker of sparkling wines?

Write to every champagne house, every maker of sparkling red and every maker of sparkling white and voice the same complaint because those who retail sparklers under crown seal is way in the minority and there are a hell of a lot of other labels out there way more expensive than Rockford Black that continue to seal with cork.

FWIW there was again no Black available for sale at CD this year, and has only ever been available once to CD sale in the past 5 years as it invariably sells out rapidly to mail order customers, most of whom don't bother reading these forums.

[beef]

Beef,

Good idea but they keep selling out quickly, so from their perspective, it makes no difference. Robert is adamant that he will stick with corks on the Black.

** They need to realise that it does still make a difference. Sure, the Black might sell out quickly right now, but I assume they want to keep it that way. If enough consumers complain about the corks, and do so loudly enough that both Rockford and the wine buying public can hear, then damage will be done to Rockford's reputation, causing their popularity to fall.

Thing is, that won't affect sales right away. There's enough inertia behind the label to perpetuate full sales for many years to come. They can't afford to wait for the eventual drop in sales before doing something, however. Because by that time, consumers will have already soured on the brand, and they'll no longer be an icon of Australian wine.

Or maybe everything will stay rosy. But they need to acknowledge the risks. And with enough voices, I reckon we could convince them.

Stuart

Sorry, but this is absolute dribble.

** You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion.

Why concentrate on 1 maker of sparkling wines?

** Ummm, I never said that I concentrate on a single wine maker. Nor did I advise anyone else to do so.

As a matter of fact, I regularly email other wine makers (of sparklers and still wines), and tell them that I would love to buy their product, if only they wouldn't "seal" it with tree bark.

I buy very few wines under cork these days. Especially if those wines are expensive.

All that aside however, Rockford is actually unique, with respect to this issue. Rockford's corks leak. No one else's do. Which means that, even disregarding issues like TCA and random oxidisation, cork is clearly the wrong seal for Rockford's Sparkling Black.

And when I become a Stonewaller, I will politely inform them of my opinions on a regular basis.

Thanks,

Stuart

[Davo]

All that aside however, Rockford is actually unique, with respect to this issue. Rockford's corks leak. No one else's do. Which means that, even disregarding issues like TCA and random oxidisation, cork is clearly the wrong seal for Rockford's Sparkling Black.

And exactly how many Black Shiraz have you had with cork failure. I may have been lucky going by the accounts here but I have not had one yet with a failed seal.

And I have actually had failed corks in champagne.

[griff]

All that aside however, Rockford is actually unique, with respect to this issue. Rockford's corks leak. No one else's do. Which means that, even disregarding issues like TCA and random oxidisation, cork is clearly the wrong seal for Rockford's Sparkling Black.

And exactly how many Black Shiraz have you had with cork failure. I may have been lucky going by the accounts here but I have not had one yet with a failed seal.

And I have actually had failed corks in champagne.

One each for me. A 1997 Blackie and a 1990 Veuve Cliquot reserve release. And I can say that the Black was still drinking well (can't say whether it could be better but it was pretty damm good) and the Veuve was sherry!

And just as an aside to beef, not sure that Robert closely follows public opinion. Seems a pretty individual kind of person (judging by his writing mostly) and I don't think numerous pleading emails etc will change his mind unless it wants to be changed.

cheers

Carl

[beef]

All that aside however, Rockford is actually unique, with respect to this issue. Rockford's corks leak. No one else's do. Which means that, even disregarding issues like TCA and random oxidisation, cork is clearly the wrong seal for Rockford's Sparkling Black.

And exactly how many Black Shiraz have you had with cork failure. I may have been lucky going by the accounts here but I have not had one yet with a failed seal.

And I have actually had failed corks in champagne.

** Me? Zero. I have tried it, but haven't cellared it. Other peoples' experiences are well documented here, however:

http://www.torbwine.com/pa/2006/rockfordrag.shtml

Thanks,

Stuart

[Davo]

All that aside however, Rockford is actually unique, with respect to this issue. Rockford's corks leak. No one else's do. Which means that, even disregarding issues like TCA and random oxidisation, cork is clearly the wrong seal for Rockford's Sparkling Black.

And exactly how many Black Shiraz have you had with cork failure. I may have been lucky going by the accounts here but I have not had one yet with a failed seal.

And I have actually had failed corks in champagne.

** Me? Zero. I have tried it, but haven't cellared it. Other peoples' experiences are well documented here, however:

http://www.torbwine.com/pa/2006/rockfordrag.shtml

Thanks,

Stuart

Stuart, I am fully aware of others complaints and Rics article. What I was interested in was your personal experience, which was obviously bad enough to drive you to complain and demand change.

So, actually you personally have had no problems with the wine or the closure but you are going to complain anyway.

My original comment stands I am afraid.

[wineguy]

if only they wouldn't "seal" it with tree bark.

YAWN

Oh please, this whole issue has been so blown out of proportion that it borders on ludicrous Why not just stick it in aluminium cans available in cartons of 24. Then we could all stop using melted sand and why we're at it they should really stop using pieces of tree to store the wine in, I'm sure that cutting down those trees is causing gloabl warming.

Please get over it and move on, there are way more interesting and relevant topics to discuss on these forums I don't like how they become a place to "anonymously" bitch about a product/company. If you have a genuine complaint contact the company yourself, don't hide on an internet forum.

[griff]

if only they wouldn't "seal" it with tree bark.

YAWN

Oh please, this whole issue has been so blown out of proportion that it borders on ludicrous Why not just stick it in aluminium cans available in cartons of 24. Then we could all stop using melted sand and why we're at it they should really stop using pieces of tree to store the wine in, I'm sure that cutting down those trees is causing gloabl warming.

Please get over it and move on, there are way more interesting and relevant topics to discuss on these forums I don't like how they become a place to "anonymously" bitch about a product/company. If you have a genuine complaint contact the company yourself, don't hide on an internet forum.

Cool! I would prefer tetrapaks but a slab of the juice sounds great!

cheers

Carl aka anonymous

[beef]

if only they wouldn't "seal" it with tree bark.

YAWN

Oh please, this whole issue has been so blown out of proportion that it borders on ludicrous Why not just stick it in aluminium cans available in cartons of 24. Then we could all stop using melted sand and why we're at it they should really stop using pieces of tree to store the wine in, I'm sure that cutting down those trees is causing gloabl warming.

** Your comments are tangential to those of my original post. My complaints arise from the poor performance of cork as a wine-bottle seal. And you're talking about the use of cardboard in packaging wine, and the resulting environmental impact (an important issue, no doubt). And suggesting that for some reason we might stop using sand to bottle our wine, even though glass is an inert robust enclosure, and silicon and oxygen are the two most abundant elements on earth? Exactly what, do you imagine, are you contributing to this discussion?

Please get over it and move on, there are way more interesting and relevant topics to discuss on these forums I don't like how they become a place to "anonymously" bitch about a product/company. If you have a genuine complaint contact the company yourself, don't hide on an internet forum.

** I am neither anonymous, nor am I hiding. Quite a few people on this forum have met me in person at Brisbane off-lines. Furthermore, I am going to contact the company myself, and have stated so quite clearly. I was merely asking if other dissatisfied customers (and they do exist on this forum) would do the same. Once again, you seem to have had trouble reading or understanding my original post.

Also, I find the continued use of cork in sealing wines to be one of the most interesting (and baffling) issues in the wine world today. You may disagree, but that's why forums such as this maintain many different threads of discussion. That way, each user can focus on the issues that most interest them.

Stuart

[wineguy]

LOL, sarcasm my friend, its called sarcasm. As to what I'm contributing, well about as much as you are, which if we're both honest probably doesnt amount to all that much. One thing I'm confused on though is what exactly you are going to contact the winery about. You've stated that you presonally have not had the same problem that was described earlier in the topic, so what do you expect them to do about it?

oh and btw I was talking about barrels, not cardboard, they're also made from trees.

[pokolbinguy]

Hi all,

Interested to quickly read this thread while sitting in a uni lecture.

Not sure if it was covered but the use of crown seals in wine making are extremely common.

Champagne houses / sparkling wine producers use crown seals, while a larger style then that used for beer, everyday in producing their products.

While a bottle of bubbles sits in a riddling rack (now a large cage rotated by a machine), and for the life of the bottle in the winery it is sealed with a large crown seal, known as a triage cap i think.

Once the wine is finished - disgorged and re-filled, the bottle is "corked and caged". This is for retail purposes only, really just an aesthetic thing.

The use of crown seals is not new and is a fantastic idea. It removes both the cause of TCA (cork taint) as there is no cork involved, and highly reduces the chance of oxidisation as there is no air movement like there is with cork, as cork is porous (naturally being a timber).

So much like the use of screwcaps, crown seals are fastly making their way to retail shelves

To those who are against the idea, remember there is nothing worse than opening a special bottle of wine or champagne to find that after possibly years of cellaring it has been ruined due to a failed cork. And anyway screwcaps and crown seals allow longer aging due to no micro-oxidisation due to air movement through the porous cork.

So drink up boys and girls ... there is plenty of good bubbles out there in groovy crown seals.

Brett

[wineguy]

You read this whilst sitting in a lecture?? Man, uni's changed since I was there then. Love it!

[Davo]

The use of crown seals is not new and is a fantastic idea. It removes both the cause of TCA (cork taint) as there is no cork involved, and highly reduces the chance of oxidisation as there is no air movement like there is with cork, as cork is porous (naturally being a timber).

Actually no to both. I have had TCA affected wine under screwcap. While it removes the risk from cork exposure cork is not the only source of TCA in a winery, nor the only source of other "cork" faults such as mustiness.

And oxidation does occur under rote closures due to failure.

ROTE closures also have a higher reductive fault level than cork.

And anyway screwcaps and crown seals allow longer aging due to no micro-oxidisation due to air movement through the porous cork.

Brett

Air movement through a "porous" cork does not cause a problem with sparkling wines due to the high level of CO2 naturally in the bottle. The problem with cork is when it fails to seal properly and allows firstly the CO2 under pressure to escape and then oxidation. This can happen even with ill fitting or damaged crown seals.