Why red?

[winetastic]

Welcome aboard Alex, I really started to get into wine a few years ago and basically went out there and tried every aussie variety and region that I could. After about a year I had a fair idea of my own preferences, its a fun journey.

Be forewarned, your wallet will not be pleased once you start to build up a bit of a cellar!

[DerekJ]

I'm a newb too, on this forum and to the world that is wine obsessed.

For me, I too found a progression from white to red, but thats cos I discovered I had been drinking cheap wine, and most cheap reds are rubbish, and as someone else said, I can rarely tell a white thats cheap or expensive, cos they all taste the same, except semillon. Or maybe my palate isnt as developed as some?

A real wine lover gave me a fine aged Shiraz, and I was awaken. So THIS is what the fuss is about! Now I'm hooked!

Of course there are exceptions (and more experienced forumites can give you suggestions), but what I have found is that you need to spend at least $25 for a good red.

As others have, I also suggest do what I did recently, and get yourself to some wine regions and discover for yourself what you really like. Though being in Brisbane makes it tough. Get on a plane and travel south, or south west, and get plenty of different wine into you!

[Daryl Douglas]

Y'know what I like about wine? The variations seem to be almost infinite.
It doesn't matter if it's red or white. Regional variation, vineyard variation, varietal differences, winemaker differences etc, etc, etc.

If it has to be (almost) exclusively red for some, so? Vis a vis those who prefer whites and those who will consume varying ratios of the two basic table wine styles according to their own preference at their time of choosing what to drink. I often prefer to drink a nice cold, relaxing beer before having a wine

Any proclamation of red bigotry though, is, I think, somewhat compromised by preparedness to drink particular styles of white wines such as particular sparkling, fortified and botrytis-affected dessert wines.

[Dave Dewhurst]

Some interesting comments here on white to red progression. If anything, I must be a retard (the other half would definitely agree !!). Being an import here with probably more of a preference for European reds, I have graduated to a large amount of the great rieslings and semillons this country has to offer given climate and also their astonishing value. That's not to say that I don't love the reds here too, but probably with more of a cool climate perspective. Each to their own is the message I guess and its a damn fun trip finding the path. Hopefully I still have a few decades to get to that path yet!!!

Cheers

Dave

[Craig(NZ)]

my deluxe elite version of the kiwiwinefanclub wine database show ive drunk more riesling over the last 10 years than any other variety

[707]

Alex, welcome and lots of good advice has been forthcoming. With reds you generally get what you pay for so avoid really cheap stuff, I doubt you'll like it. Wines like Yering Station Shiraz Viognier at just under $20 are very good and overdeliver at that price. Good advice too on keeping your reds cool when you drink them. Don't be afraid to fridge them before and during consumption. Wine warms up quickly to the room temperature and reds can start to look thin and alcoholic when warm. Enjoy the journey and tell us what you're liking/disliking and there's nothing wrong with enjoying Secret Stone SB either!

Interesting how many started on whites and "progressed" to reds.

A "friend" introduced me to reds and vintage port without starting me on whites and haven't regressed to them. This "friend" introducing me to wine has cost me about half a million I reckon!

I only have a white to be sociable. Maybe because I've blasted my palate with reds and VPs for thirty years I just can't find the quality progression in whites from $10 to $60 that I can in reds. Seems alot of others can't either once bottles are done blind!

[Sparkling Red]

Alex,
Absolutely nothing wrong with whites. I probably drink 60% white and 40% red. Being a woman I have to taste all wines in sight!

Try a soft young merlot to start your adventure into reds.

I went to Coonawarra last weekend and found the chardonays quite thin compared to say the Rutherglen region.
Don't wipe out the whites as they can be quite refreshing with a bbq lunch or served with an entree when entertaining guests for dinner although I do prefer to start a dinner with a magnificant All Saints Sparkling Shiraz.

Good luck.

Cheers
Natalie

[a_kean]

I have been checking out this forum for a while, but this topic is what has prompted me to finally register and post.

I have been drinking, buying and cellaring wine for about 5 years, which isn't a long time, but it's not short either. I have definitely seen a progression in my tastes from warm climate, fruity/ oaky wines to cooler climate balanced wines, but I have in no way progressed away from whites towards reds. I have always enjoyed ALL wine styles (although to a lesser extent Sauvignon Blanc!) As others have pointed out, I think the thing that makes wine so obsessive is the endless variety it has.

Which is why I also find it difficult to understand how, if you like variety, you can discount pretty much all white wines. Sure, there is a huge variety of red wines, but they don't taste like their white counterparts, so including whites as well doubles the amount of variety. Which someone who loves variety should be interested in!

So the only explanation that I am comfortable with is simply personal taste, ie most Sauv Blancs don't excite me, so for some people most whites don't excite them. But I would choose a Lawson's Dry Hills SB over a Jacob's Creek merlot if they were the only choices, and if someone strongly recommended a sauv blanc I would try it if the opportunity arose. I tried the Te Mata Cape Crest SB '05 after Atilla's strong review and absolutely loved it. I would have never thought SB could taste like that if I had wrote them all off (and I had tried a number of barrel fermented examples that just tasted like oaked chardonnays to me).

Anyway, I guess you can't argue with the "each to their own" priniciple, but I do scratch my head sometimes when trying to understand...

[Red Bigot]

Anyway, I guess you can't argue with the "each to their own" priniciple, but I do scratch my head sometimes when trying to understand...

Don't scratch your head too much, you'll end up with a haircut like Ric and I have!

Welcome aboard.

It's interesting, the sometimes maligned red bigots have no problems understanding that other people choose to drink what they like, but those that claim to have "more diverse" palates can't cope well with understanding the same thing.

There is such a thing as too much variety and trying to too hard for extra variety only increases the number of duds you come across. Five years is still a fairly short time for your palate to reach it's "final" state, if there is any such thing. Come back in 10 years and report on how your preferences have changed.

BTW, I actually attended a rare white-wine flight in one of my tasting groups on Thursday, all Chardonnay ranging from the $15.95 Lillydale 2005 that ran away with a bunch of trophies at the NWS last year, through Bannockburn, Freycinet, Tyrrells vat 47, Eileen Hardy and a $60 Pierro. The Eileen Hardy 2005 was group-ranked top, followed by the Lillydale, Vat 47, Bannockburn, Freycinet and the Pierro last. I ranked the Lillydale top and EH second, Vat 47 third. I thought the last 3 mentioned were quite ordinary and very poor value. There was not one of them that I would prefer to drink over any of the $20-$30 reds I have in my cellar.

[a_kean]

I guess 5 years is very different to 15 years! I am definitely still at the stage where I want to try as many different things as possible because you never know what you might like. I only rarely buy more than 2 bottles of a particular vintage of a wine, even though I know wines change considerably as they age.

I guess I understand that if you know what you like then that's what you will prefer to drink, but I just wanted to argue the point that if variety is what you are after, sticking to reds will satisfy that urge just as much as drinking both whites and reds. They seem to be two very different approaches to enjoying wine.

[Red Bigot]

I guess 5 years is very different to 15 years! I am definitely still at the stage where I want to try as many different things as possible because you never know what you might like.

Yeah, I finished that (15 year) stage about 25 years ago and worked out what I liked and didn't like. It hasn't changed that much since, you could say I'm in a rut, but it's still an enjoyable rut to me. I still try a few things outside my normal preference zone when the opportunity comes along, seldom find anything that impresses me enough to buy.

I guess I understand that if you know what you like then that's what you will prefer to drink, but I just wanted to argue the point that if variety is what you are after, sticking to reds will satisfy that urge just as much as drinking both whites and reds. They seem to be two very different approaches to enjoying wine.

And both just as valid as each other, there is no right and wrong in wine preference.

[a_kean]

a_kean wrote:

I guess I understand that if you know what you like then that's what you will prefer to drink, but I just wanted to argue the point that if variety is what you are after, sticking to reds will satisfy that urge just as much as drinking both whites and reds. They seem to be two very different approaches to enjoying wine.

And both just as valid as each other, there is no right and wrong in wine preference.

Absolutely. (OK, I got to 5 posts)

[Mahmoud Ali]

Alex, if you want to try a good rosé then I recommend Charles Melton’s Rose of Virginia. In my opinion it is the finest rosé in Australia. I don’t drink a lot of rosés but every time I have tried Melton’s Rose of Virginia (twice at cellar door) I have been impressed. It is a meaty substantial wine with character and depth. It even ages well. Once, in 2001, I found a few bottles of 1998 Rose of Virginia in the refrigerator of a drive-through bottle shop in McLaren Vale. It had some sediment in the bottle but was drinking very well. I went back and got the remaining five bottles for $10 each.

By the way, one doesn’t “progress” to red wines. I hardly think that Hugh Johnson, Jancis Robinson and Michael Broadbent’s palate haven’t “progressed” and have remained stagnant all these years. You may find that you prefer red wines and that is just fine. There are even people who only drink white wines (shudder). A person’s palate can progress or develop through the years but it can do so in any or all directions. My first wine drinking experience was a slightly sweet German wine called Winzertanz that I drank at my grandmother’s place. It was slightly better than the Blue Nun and Black Tower brands that did so much to ruin the reputation of German wines. But since then I have progressed to appreciate the wonderful qualities of the vineyard designated German Rieslings. I have also experienceded the magic of some very special (and expensive) Rhone whites, as well as the character filled white wines from southern Italy made from Greco di Tufo, Falanghina and Fiano di Avellino. And then there are the glories of sherry, particularly the olorosos. In red wines there have been similar discoveries along the way. Once again Italy turns out to be the home of character driven reds made from varieties like Negroamaro, Primitivo (a relative of Zinfandel), Aglianico, Nero d’Avola, and Uve di Troia (literally grapes from Troy). There is even a Greek variety called Xenomavro that is supposed to age well and resemble a Barolo. I have put a few bottles away to see if its true. There are many ways to progress, experiences to be gained , and lessons to learn along the vinous byways.

A Keane, you may be interested to know that in a BBC series on wine Jancis Robinson also admitted to being unexcited by Sauvignon Blanc. When Stoneleigh’s Sauvignon Blanc first appeared on the scene in Canada I loved the exotic nature of the New Zealand style however it didn’t take long for the novelty to wear off. Now you could say that I have developed a bit of bigotry towards New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc and the copycat styles in Australia. I much prefer the more subtle style of Bordeaux whites, which is a blend of Semillon and Sauvignon, and the Australian blends that tames the wilder side of the Sauvignon Blanc.

Cheers........Mahmoud.

[Red Bigot]

By the way, one doesn’t “progress” to red wines.

Some do, I did and I know a lot of other people who started on sweetish white wines and "progressed" (in the moved on sense) to prefer reds.

I hardly think that Hugh Johnson, Jancis Robinson and Michael Broadbent’s palate haven’t “progressed” and have remained stagnant all these years. You may find that you prefer red wines and that is just fine. There are even people who only drink white wines (shudder).

I find the term "stagnant" repugnant in this context. There are surely less pejorative terms to describe someone who prefers particular types and styles of wines and that preference doesn't change for many years. Personally I think my palate is "mature", I've tried just about every type and style of wine over the years and it's my considered choice to stick to a subset of them that I like and can afford.

I also have some good friends who drink almost exclusively white wine, apart from sparkling reds, I don't shudder at that thought, it's their choice and cannot be wrong for them. So when we get together we share red and white bubblies and go our own way on the still wines.

Sometimes I wonder who are the real bigots in the wine-drinking world, none of the "red" ones I know are actually intolerant of other peoples wine choices.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Gee Red Bigot, you seem to be going out of your way to find fault in anything that I say related to red or white wines.

I may be a bit pedantic but drinking white wines and then preferring reds is not a “progression.” Your attempt to redefine the discussion of progress as “moving along” is disingenuous. One may prefer Auckland to Sydney but moving there cannot be called progress in any sense of the word. Switching from white to red wines or from red wines to port is neither progress nor a progression. Both are examples of preferences. If you played tennis and then switched to rugby that is not a progression. Progression is if you improve or develop something along the same lines. Switching from Biology to Geography at university is not progression, but going from a BSc to a PhD is. Hence a person can progress if they improve their palate and learn to appreciate better wines. Just switching is not a progression.

You, like many others, may have found that you prefer red wines. Like I said, that is just fine. Also, your appreciation of red wines may have progressed. That is commendable. However, to say that moving from white to red wine by itself is progress is, I believe, incorrect, no more, no less. In fact I believe that even though you prefer reds to whites, your palate has likely improved (or progressed if you will) to the point where you can probably discern the better whites.

Red Bigot, I think you should also re-read what I said about “stagnant” palates. You completely misinterpreted it. I did not say that people who prefer certain styles of wines have stagnant palates. What I said was that if people choose to define the preference of red wines to whites as “progress” then they are implying that the people who continue to drink white wines are, relatively speaking, not progressing or stagnant. So what I said was that I don’t think that Messrs. Broadbent, Robinson and Johnson’s palates are stagnant. You may have misunderstood what I was saying but my comments were not “repugnant” and you should be able to see the difference.

As for the “shudder” comment I think you know it was a tease. I had just finished saying that it was perfectly fine to prefer red wines just as it was to only drink white wines. As there are a few self-professed red bigots on the board I thought that it was a funny aside. I guessed wrong. It seems that some red bigots are a bit defensive.

Let’s get one thing straight. Nowhere in any of my posts have I said anything pejorative about people’s wine preferences. All I have done is defend preferences; in this case the people who like white wines. But despite my defence of those who appreciate white wines somehow you seem to want to interpret my remarks as critical of both red and white wine drinkers. By defending people’s preferences, in your eyes I am the wine bigot. Remarkable! Brian, you call yourself the Red Bigot, not me. It is your by-line that reads “Life’s too short to drink white wines.”

I meet wine bigots all the time. They always have some idea ab that ne that I feel compelled to oppose. Maybe that’s my problem. There was the French woman who scoffed at the Californian wine. Then there are some Australians who think that all Italian wines are thin and weak. There are people who think that Grenache cannot make good wines. There are even people who think that Australian wines don’t age. In each instance I tend to argue the opposite. Sometimes I can do something to remove the bias. I once took the same Portuguese wines to a dinner, the 1985 and the 1995 that was currently available. Everyone was surprised, including the agent who represented the very same wine. She didn’t think that Portuguese table wines could age so well. Another time after constantly hearing about how Australian wines couldn’t age I pulled a 20-year old Victorian cabernet and served it blind. The tasters were quite shocked, remarking about how amazing that an Australian wine survived 20 years and that its bouquet was Bordeaux-like. Recently I was reading about how Sangiovese wines cannot age for the 20-30 years that Bordeaux can and couldn’t help thinking about how I would love to serve the author of the article a bottle of the delicious 1974 Castello di Nipozzano that I last had in 2004. There are lots of stereotypes, biases and bigotry, if you will, in the world of wine. So it is with red and white wine bigotry. Though I don’t care if people prefer red or white wines, and to drink it exclusively, I will always defend the tastes of people who appreciate and enjoy all the different styles of wine in the world.

Frankly, I get the distinct impression that there is an element of defensiveness about this red wine/white wine debate. Its as if some red wine drinkers feel compelled to explain away their almost exclusive preference for red wines. Don’t worry, it’s not a big deal. Those of us who drink and enjoy different styles of wine know that there are people who don’t like peas, others hate broccoli, and some won’t touch brussel sprouts. There is nothing wrong with your tastes, it’s just a matter of preferences. You don’t have to explain.

Cheers………….Mahmoud.

PS: Robert Parker once said that "Life is too short to drink Croizet-Bages." He was talking about a fifth growth Bordeaux from Pauillac that was performing well under par. Well, your truly, once again the dissident voice, has kept a bottle of the 1978 Croizet-Bages to see if Parker was right.

[Red Bigot]

Mahmoud,

I don't see any point in responding, it's obvious we are never going to reach consensus and it really doesn't matter at all.

[Sorbtastic]

I think the beauty of wine is its diversity. There is such a range that anyone can find their own happy place within varieties, styles, regions, age etc. As someone in their mid 20s, the experience I get from a new grape or region is all part of the journey and determines what I would like to try again.

To tell someone that to only focusing on reds or whites is not a 'full wine experience' is a bit rich. I believe its very much each to his own - if you don't like whites, you don't like whites or if you enjoy reds drink them!

Personally, being able to try and match wines with foods is what I enjoy the most about wine. For me its not a case of do I like white or red, its about what would go best with the food I’m eating (obviously I have to like the wine as well – as I enjoy most styles I can experiment with both whites and reds). For example - I find the combination of whites and seafood magic, do I try riesling with prawns or would semillon do the job, if I pick a riesling, which one, what age, region? It’s the same with trying different reds with red meat or having a go at matching a wine with spicy food.

There are just so many experiences out there for all of us to enjoy – so go out there and taste – find out what you like and then enjoy it.

Cheers,
Steve

[kirragc]

Now who said forum baiting doesnt work

[griff]

So what I said was that I don’t think that Messrs. Broadbent, Robinson and Johnson’s palates are stagnant.

Is there another famous Robinson in the wine scribing world?

[Mahmoud Ali]

Sorbtastic................................BINGO!!!!!!!!

Cheers................Mahmoud.