Who likes Grange?

Ratcatcher · Post by **Ratcatcher** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:08 pm

A lot of people comment on Penfolds but what about Grange?

Is it a truly great wine?

Is it one of the top 3 AUS wines every vintage (ignoring QPR)?

Who loves drinking it?

Who can name 10 wines they would rather drink than Grange assuming someone else is paying?

PAS · Post by **PAS** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:19 pm

I took a punt at a auction last year.
Ended up with a 1971 grange with badly damaged label.
My wife and I drank it recently (with the delicious dinner she cooked).
I managed to get the cork out without it crumbling.
The first sniff had me worried.... the wine was the best aussie wine we have ever drunk by a wide margin.
Cost me about $150 and worth every cent.
In my opinion, it would be worth not drinking for a couple weeks to have the opportunity to have a 71!!!

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:29 pm

On average, Grange is the greatest Australian red wine. In many years it is the red wine of the vintage.

Yes, it is a truly great wine, particularly in its style.

With regard to whether there are 10 wines I would rather drink than Grange, I could get to 100 very quickly, but I have no issue with others having it in their top 10 or Number One, because for its style, it is great.

However, like any great wine, it is subject to vintage variation and some vintages are not so great.

Adair

P.S. Good bottles of the 1971 Bin 389 are awesome too... but can take a few hours to reveal it.

Roscoe · Post by **Roscoe** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:25 am

Adair wrote:On average, Grange is the greatest Australian red wine.

IMHO, I agree.
IMHO, I believe it now has an extremely poor QPR, obviously the price being the issue rather than the quality. It may in fact have one of the worst QPR in Australia (of course this is a totally subjective measure), due to the efforts of trophy collectors and speculators.

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:25 am

Roscoe wrote:
Adair wrote:On average, Grange is the greatest Australian red wine.

IMHO, I agree.
IMHO, I believe it now has an extremely poor QPR, obviously the price being the issue rather than the quality. It may in fact have one of the worst QPR in Australia (of course this is a totally subjective measure), due to the efforts of trophy collectors and speculators.

I am fine with the price in great years - I have not had the 1998 or 1999 yet but I am happy with the 1996 price... as well as the 1983. (

)

However, I agree with your comments in years like 2000 and 1997 where I will leave the Grange for the collectors... although there was a fair bit of the 1997 on special around the $200 mark but that is too muich as well

Adair

Maximus · Post by **Maximus** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:45 am

Bo-ring.

Sheez, haven't we seen this style of post a gazillion times?

I think Penfolds can cut any allocated funds into marketing Grange. We all do it for them. Sorry. Just a dummy spit. :shock:

For the record, no Grange I've had has been a religious experience, and I've had about six or seven different vintages; young and old (nothing before 1980 though). Would much prefer the single vineyard individuality of a great like Hill of Grace.

Craig(NZ) · Post by **Craig(NZ)** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:56 pm

Ive only had a few vintages of Grange, some vintages more than twice. Some experiences have been stunning eg 96 and the first time I had the 92. Other experiences have been excellent without being sublime and some disappointing eg 93.

I dont even think of buying it anymore. Its too expensive and would rather try other of the worlds great wines to broaden experience.

Ratcatcher · Post by **Ratcatcher** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:57 pm

I guess I'm just curious about who actually likes the wine itself rather than just the prestige that now goes with drinking it.

Is anyone on here old enough to have been a regular drinker of it before the price explosion?

When Grange was a $50 - $60 bottle of wine did it stand head and shoulders above the $30 - $40 bottles?

Roscoe · Post by **Roscoe** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:32 am

Ratcatcher wrote:When Grange was a $50 - $60 bottle of wine did it stand head and shoulders above the $30 - $40 bottles?

FWIW, I don't remember any Australian wines being 30-40 when Grange was 50-60, apart from some special releases and rare muscats/tokays. Perhaps others may have better memories.
I can't claim to ever be a regular drinker. It has always been pricey, just not as pricey as it is now. I have to be honest, I am totally unwilling to pay this price. I was willing to when it was around $50. In today's dollars I would guess that is around $130. I think $130-150 is a fair price in a good vintage- but that's only my opinion.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:51 am

My father inlaw stopped buying it when it went over about $30 I think. He pulls out a bottle of 70's grange every xmas and yes it is impressive, the last couple were 76's and just fabulous. Would I fork out $400 for it now, no way for $100 I would contmeplate it though.

Glen

Ratcatcher · Post by **Ratcatcher** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:00 pm

I guess that's sort of what I'm getting at.

If all of a sudden Max Schubert returned to Earth and launched a takeover bid for Penfolds and assumed control and reduced Grange's price to $75 a bottle and the other Penfolds reduced accordingly would it be an automatic buy for everyone?

Would you buy it ahead of your current favourite $50 - $100 wines every time?

Roscoe · Post by **Roscoe** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:57 pm

At $75, I would almost certainly buy every year.

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:58 pm

Ratcatcher wrote:I guess that's sort of what I'm getting at.

If all of a sudden Max Schubert returned to Earth and launched a takeover bid for Penfolds and assumed control and reduced Grange's price to $75 a bottle and the other Penfolds reduced accordingly would it be an automatic buy for everyone?

Would you buy it ahead of your current favourite $50 - $100 wines every time?

Yes.

Ratcatcher · Post by **Ratcatcher** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:17 pm

If I could buy Penfolds outright the first thing I would do is reposition all the wines.

Grange $80
707 & RWT $50
Magill & St Henri $35
Bin 389 $22
Other Bins $16

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:19 pm

Ratcatcher wrote:If I could buy Penfolds outright the first thing I would do is reposition all the wines.

Grange $80
707 & RWT $50
Magill & St Henri $35
Bin 389 $22
Other Bins $16

Hyland $11
Rawson Retreat $8

Looks good.

Adair

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:20 pm

Maximus wrote:Bo-ring.

See Max, this is getting fun!
Adair

GraemeG · Post by **GraemeG** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:32 pm

Ratcatcher wrote:I guess that's sort of what I'm getting at.

If all of a sudden Max Schubert returned to Earth and launched a takeover bid for Penfolds and assumed control and reduced Grange's price to $75 a bottle and the other Penfolds reduced accordingly would it be an automatic buy for everyone?

Would you buy it ahead of your current favourite $50 - $100 wines every time?

Oh yes, without hesitation. It's a very good wine - actually it's outstanding 4 vintages out of 5. No-one has really matched the style with any real consistency, either. At up $150 I'd probably buy a bottle or two in those 4 good years ('though 00, 97, 95 wouldn't see my money). Has a complexity and depth that transcends mere size, which is what many pretenders don't quite seem to manage. I've drunk about half the vintages between 72 and 96 and never really been disappointed (although value for money is less certain...)
cheers,
Graeme

mattECN · Post by **mattECN** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:39 pm

I've only ever had the 1982, and that was in 1998, it was amazing. having said that, I've had other wines that I have enjoyed more.

some people say that you should have a bottle of grange from your birth year. I keep dropping hints to my wife and my mates, but they never oblige. i personally would not buy a bottle of grange unless I were lucky enough to win division 1 in the lotto.

TORB · Post by **TORB** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:55 pm

mattECN wrote:some people say that you should have a bottle of grange from your birth year.

Matt,

That a bit hard for some old bastards like Red Bigot (Brian) who were around before it was first made. I can be rude about him as yesterday he called me a "young fella" when he wished me happy birthday. And Grange was made in my birth year - just.

jacques · Post by **jacques** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:59 pm

I tried 76, 80,83,86,95,96,97and 98, all of them ar excellent except 80 and 97. For the good vintage, I am will to pay up to 200 for bottle, however, the 2000 and 2001 is mark over 400 at the moment!

Christo · Post by **Christo** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:20 pm

TORB wrote:
mattECN wrote:some people say that you should have a bottle of grange from your birth year.

Matt,

That a bit hard for some old bastards like Red Bigot (Brian) who were around before it was first made. I can be rude about him as yesterday he called me a "young fella" when he wished me happy birthday. And Grange was made in my birth year - just.

Happy birthday Ric!

christo

platinum · Post by **platinum** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:28 pm

I dont think Grange would be half as dear as it is if it werent for speculators. With the high release prices and so much being made these days some of them will realise that the Days of making easy money out of Grange are gone and even 20 years down the track there will be much more of the current stuff around than they anticipated.

I would be happy to pay just over $200 per bottle for the good vintages as it is a great wine. $400-$500 is beyond a joke. Thats $1200 per 6 pack at $200 per bottle versus $3000 per 6 pack at $500 per bottle. :shock:

For $3000 I can have more than 6 of alot of other super wines in my cellar.

TORB · Post by **TORB** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:44 pm

Christo wrote:
Happy birthday Ric!

Thanks Christo, and the good news was I was able to enjoy some good wine for a change.

As far as the cost of Grange is concerned, I stopped buying it when it with the 96 vintage when I could buy it $300 and even then, I only bought three bottles.

As far as the speculators are concerned, I agree with other peoples comments about them forcing the price up. The other side of that coin is that I have found that older vintage, like the 83 which is ready to go now can be had for $300, so why buy current vintages at $500 and have to wait 20 years for them to peak when you can get them via auction for less and the wines are ready to go?

Ratcatcher · Post by **Ratcatcher** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:52 pm

The comment I always liked was Huon Hooke or Mark Shield who said you used to splash out and buy a bottle of Grange when you got a promotion or for a special birthday or anniversary.

Not many people would do that now, certainly not off a restaurant wine list.

What annoys me about the Grange speculators is what the Grange price frenzy has done to the prices of Magill, St Henri and 389.

They've all been dragged along in the hype and are all about 40% over priced.

These days I only buy 1-2 of these wines and only in the standout vintages.

If 389 was $25 and St Henri was $40 I'd probably buy 6 of each every year and 12 in the outstanding ones.

But I suppose Southcorp or Fosters or whoever factor this into their decisions and if they can sell enough at current prices they don't need customers like me.

It's not like there are no other wines to spend my money on.

I reckon it will one day come back to bite them on the a$$ though.

ps: Happy birthday Ric. And continued thanks for your great website and contributions to this forum. May there be many more. (both Birthdays and contributions)

Maximus · Post by **Maximus** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:17 pm

Maximus wrote:Bo-ring.

Adair wrote:See Max, this is getting fun!
Adair

Still wouldn't buy, even with the pricing restructure. :wink:

Gianna · Post by **Gianna** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:47 pm

This arguement (discussion) is a bit like if one feels flying first class is worth it.
Grange, just like first class, is definitely not worth it.
But that's just the way it goes, it still costs the price it does and it is still the best...
( just try econonmy or rawson retreat afterwards and see how you feel then..... :wink:

)

Mike Hawkins · Post by **Mike Hawkins** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:21 am

Rat,

I don't understand how you can say these wines are overpriced, when they're walking off the shelves. Grange sells out in a few days in most stores (here in the US, most stores had sold their allocations before it even hit the shores). St Henri and RWT, especially in good years, doesn't seem to last more than 4 or 5 months either. The Bin series always seem to "just" last until the following release is scheduled.

The market will dictate whether they are overpriced - because they just wont sell if they're too exxy. I am sure when the 02 Grange is released, it would still sell out at $550+.

You mentioned if you ran Penfolds you would drop the prices. It would probably wipe out 10%+ of Fosters market cap overnight !

Nevertheless, I understand your concerns. I do not buy as much Penfolds as I did 15 years ago, as I believe there is better value to be had elsewhere, in the main. But I don't begrudge them selling for what they can.

My two bob's worth....

Mike

Aussie John · Post by **Aussie John** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:31 am

Roscoe wrote:
Ratcatcher wrote:When Grange was a $50 - $60 bottle of wine did it stand head and shoulders above the $30 - $40 bottles?

FWIW, I don't remember any Australian wines being 30-40 when Grange was 50-60, apart from some special releases and rare muscats/tokays. Perhaps others may have better memories.
I can't claim to ever be a regular drinker. It has always been pricey, just not as pricey as it is now. I have to be honest, I am totally unwilling to pay this price. I was willing to when it was around $50. In today's dollars I would guess that is around $130. I think $130-150 is a fair price in a good vintage- but that's only my opinion.

In the late 70's, Wolf Blass Black Label was released at a higher price than Grange. Leeuwin Estate Chardie was the same price in the early 80's.

Ratcatcher · Post by **Ratcatcher** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:49 am

Mike, from what I've read on previous posts Magill, St Henri, 389 and other Bin wines are reasonably priced in the US. Allowing for currency I think they are still 20-30% less than they sell for in Australia.

If you shop around you can get fair prices in Aus but you have to be alert. The RRP for those wines are over the top.

Here in backwards old Hobart there is still plenty of 2001 Bins and 1999 St Henri available on the bottle shop shelves. A few on-line sites still have a fair stock of back vintages of these wines too.

I realise of course what you are saying about Fosters but I am taking a romantic view and putting Penfolds realistically back in the regular drinking range for the average punter.

My perception is that pre 1990 vintage a serious wine drinker on a moderate income might buy 2-3 bottles of Grange a year for special occasions. St Henri, 707 and 389 were pretty standard restaurant wine list purchases.

I only started buying wine around 94/95. As a result I have only ever had one bottle of Grange (1984) and I would only think about buying St Henri etc at dinner if it was a special occasion and I will never order Grange at a restaurant and probably never buy a bottle retail.

And all this not because people drink it because they enjoy it, so many people buy it as an investment or as a pretentious display of their wealth.

platinum · Post by **platinum** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:31 pm

Ratcatcher wrote:Here in backwards old Hobart there is still plenty of 2001 Bins and 1999 St Henri available on the bottle shop shelves. A few on-line sites still have a fair stock of back vintages of these wines too.
.

In Melbourne there is a suprising amount still around aswell although, I expect the 2002 St Henri to walk out the door very fast with the Vintage quility and some of the reviews it has already got.

One DM store in my area that I hadnt walked into for a few months still has about 95% of the same premium bottles that they had back then on the shelves. So I guess its not just Penfolds but premiums in General which still need some sort of market outside the enthuisists (like most of us) market. So whats stopping everyday people buying a bottle for that special occasion? I guess there can be so many answers and I have read some great articles on this topic recently. One thing I will say is that DM is fierce for prices where they have competition in the lower end of the market but some of there prices for premiums is very overpriced and alot of the times they are stocking premium labels from not so good years and they are dearer than the exact sister labels from better years. So are consumers not silly or are they just not spending/induldging even if there were to be a bargain?

Sorry to get slightly away from Grange topic :oops: