Hello to all the forum regulars. I have been lurking for far too long (probably 2 years) and have decided to "come out of the cellar" so to speak. While nowhere near as experienced as many of the members here, I have tried many of the wines that often appear on the board. I'm a Westerner (O.K....I confess - a yank) living in Malaysia. I do have a cellar with probably 500-600 wines, most of which are Australian.
Over the last couple of years there have been a number of posts regarding drinking windows and the extreme variability between different wine writers.
Last night I opened an 00 Bannockburn Shiraz - I purchased a case - and felt that it was probably already drinking near its peak. I looked through the various drinking windows from the various wine scribes and found the following:
Oliver 2012-2020
Haliday before 2012
Parker 2003-2010
Ok...we've heard all this before and many of you have already offered opinions on the variability of the "experts" drinking windows.
I have recently picked up Robin Bradley's "Australian Wine Vintages 2006". I looked up Bannockburn 2000 shiraz. Low and behold....the wine maker themselves estimate the drinking PEAK to be 2005...exactly the same as my impression. For those unfamiliar with Bradleys book, he simply asks the wine producers when, in there opinion, their wines will peak and publishes their advice without any of his own input.
So my question is.....why shouldn't we consider the wine makers themselves to be the best source of estimated drinking peaks? They obviously have many back vintages which they can keep tasting. I was encouraged to see that in some instances, the wine makers actually have adjusted their drinking windows on the earlier wines...presumably because they continue tasting their older wines.
Some might say that the wine makers have an interest to declare their wines ageable and long lived even when they are not. In reality however the opposite is the case. The wine scribes 0ften estimate drinking windows that are much longer than the makers drinking windows.
Thanks everybody for any thoughts you might have. With respect to the 2000 Bannockburn shiraz....I'm drinking up!
Drinking Windows......again
In theory the Bradley drinking windows (winemaker's own) are a good idea, but the trouble is that wines might appear for 6, 8, even 10 years running with 'Now' as the peak window. Which suggests to me that the true 'peak' (inasmuch as it can be ascertained) is consistently underestimated by the makers. That was just another of the reasons I only own a few Gold Books. They're not with me now, or I'd quote a few examples but I'd encourage librarians to have a look...
cheers,
Graeme
cheers,
Graeme
If you have a few bottles of something, try it yourself and try to guess, or space them out over everybody's drinking windows.
If you have only one bottle, go with the recommendation of whoever likes it best. If Halliday says "It's good, drink 09-13" and JO says "It's crap, drink it now" I know which bet offers a better return.
The winemakers are a pretty dodgy source of information. They can be biased in favour of their own style, or talk up the cellaring potential. They can be mind-numbingly vague (like D'Arenberg's drink now or in 2-20 years). They might not be skilled tasters. They might like their wine young, oaky and tannic. The note might be written by the marketing department. It might be from tasting a barrel sample instead of the bottled product. Or the product could change over time, which might be picked up by JO or the like as they change their ratings for old wines from year to year, but the back label remains the same.
Kieran
If you have only one bottle, go with the recommendation of whoever likes it best. If Halliday says "It's good, drink 09-13" and JO says "It's crap, drink it now" I know which bet offers a better return.
The winemakers are a pretty dodgy source of information. They can be biased in favour of their own style, or talk up the cellaring potential. They can be mind-numbingly vague (like D'Arenberg's drink now or in 2-20 years). They might not be skilled tasters. They might like their wine young, oaky and tannic. The note might be written by the marketing department. It might be from tasting a barrel sample instead of the bottled product. Or the product could change over time, which might be picked up by JO or the like as they change their ratings for old wines from year to year, but the back label remains the same.
Kieran
"In the wine of life, some of us are destined to be cork sniffers." - Dilbert
Thanks for the replies
Graeme – you make a very good point that drink “now†can at times run for more than one year. It does support you’re your conclusion that the wine makers are perhaps consistently underestimating the drinking windows of their wines. After some thought however I think that there is another explanation. If you were a wine maker and were asked to select a peak year for your wine (as Bradley does) it would ultimately create a dilemma. If you felt that the wine was drinking at its peak in 2012 (and just for discussions sake lets assume that this is somehow correct) you would be forced to use “prior†for the following year (2013) when Bradly came around again. In his preface he wants the wine maker to select a single year that the wine is supposed to be at its peak. If the wine is still drinking beautifully, do you describe the peak as “prior� In a way the format of the book is flawed trying to select a single peak year. With a Sauvignon Blanc this might be possible, but it really becomes quite silly when a wine has say a 10 year drinking window. However, I’m not so sure we should throw the baby out with the bath water. The book still contains valuable information as to when the wine makers expect their wine to be drinking well.
Kieran – Fair enough – the wine makers might be a dodgy source of information. However, most of your points are slightly off the mark. The wine makers aren’t allowed to choose mature 2-20 years in Bradley’s book. Most wine makers would have some reasonably good skill at tasting wine. I would also think that they monitor their older wines (tasting back vintages) much more regularly than say Oliver. I subscribe to Oliver’s site – most wines seem not to be revisited again after they are tasted upon release. Also, it seems that Oliver and Haliday talk up the potential far more often than the wine makers do – again contradicting your point. Another example from my cellar: Seppelt St Peters 2000 Shiraz – makers peak 2006……Oliver – 2012-2020.
LetÂ’s maybe phrase the question another way. If you were talking to a wine maker (who obviously is more familiar with his wine than anybody else could be) and he told you when he felt his wine would peak, wouldnÂ’t that be very meaningful? Perhaps even more meaningful that what a reviewer thought?
Graeme – you make a very good point that drink “now†can at times run for more than one year. It does support you’re your conclusion that the wine makers are perhaps consistently underestimating the drinking windows of their wines. After some thought however I think that there is another explanation. If you were a wine maker and were asked to select a peak year for your wine (as Bradley does) it would ultimately create a dilemma. If you felt that the wine was drinking at its peak in 2012 (and just for discussions sake lets assume that this is somehow correct) you would be forced to use “prior†for the following year (2013) when Bradly came around again. In his preface he wants the wine maker to select a single year that the wine is supposed to be at its peak. If the wine is still drinking beautifully, do you describe the peak as “prior� In a way the format of the book is flawed trying to select a single peak year. With a Sauvignon Blanc this might be possible, but it really becomes quite silly when a wine has say a 10 year drinking window. However, I’m not so sure we should throw the baby out with the bath water. The book still contains valuable information as to when the wine makers expect their wine to be drinking well.
Kieran – Fair enough – the wine makers might be a dodgy source of information. However, most of your points are slightly off the mark. The wine makers aren’t allowed to choose mature 2-20 years in Bradley’s book. Most wine makers would have some reasonably good skill at tasting wine. I would also think that they monitor their older wines (tasting back vintages) much more regularly than say Oliver. I subscribe to Oliver’s site – most wines seem not to be revisited again after they are tasted upon release. Also, it seems that Oliver and Haliday talk up the potential far more often than the wine makers do – again contradicting your point. Another example from my cellar: Seppelt St Peters 2000 Shiraz – makers peak 2006……Oliver – 2012-2020.
LetÂ’s maybe phrase the question another way. If you were talking to a wine maker (who obviously is more familiar with his wine than anybody else could be) and he told you when he felt his wine would peak, wouldnÂ’t that be very meaningful? Perhaps even more meaningful that what a reviewer thought?
OK, well, (posting from home now) the only book I have to hand is the 97 edition - but an example will illustrate my point. Penfolds Bin 389. Current release is 1994 by the book. Vintages 81-89 are drink now - possibly fair enough. 90,91,92,94 are listed as 2000, and 93 alone is marked 2002.
So they're saying, basically "Only the last 5 vintages are not at their peak now. Of those, 4 will peak in 3 years, and one in 5." Perhaps the picture is less conservative in the current release, but I'd be surprised. And this is Bin 389. I don't find that sort of information terrible helpful - only in as much as they suggest one vintage will drink for longer than another. They actual years chosen seem very wrong to me.
cheers,
Graeme
So they're saying, basically "Only the last 5 vintages are not at their peak now. Of those, 4 will peak in 3 years, and one in 5." Perhaps the picture is less conservative in the current release, but I'd be surprised. And this is Bin 389. I don't find that sort of information terrible helpful - only in as much as they suggest one vintage will drink for longer than another. They actual years chosen seem very wrong to me.
cheers,
Graeme
Wow, Bradley's book is still going in Oz? 
I used to get it in UK until I realized it's stunningly unhelpful and poor value. That was years ago.
Bradley marks out of seven so ...
Worst I used to find the latest vintages of a wine always came out at 6/7 (bad vintage) or 7 (good or better). I remember 1987 Hill of Grace was initially 7 only to be downgraded to 4 about 2 years later.
There is some good in it though. For the record I have a signed copy of the second - 1981 edition, bought as a curio in a second-hand book store.
Therefore I can reliably inform you both that a young bloke called James Halliday used to be the winemaker for Brokenwood (***** no less), and that if you have any Karrawirra Fronignan Spaetlese Bin 72, by now all vintages will be - officially - and irrevocably - shagged.
I used to get it in UK until I realized it's stunningly unhelpful and poor value. That was years ago.
Bradley marks out of seven so ...
Worst I used to find the latest vintages of a wine always came out at 6/7 (bad vintage) or 7 (good or better). I remember 1987 Hill of Grace was initially 7 only to be downgraded to 4 about 2 years later.
There is some good in it though. For the record I have a signed copy of the second - 1981 edition, bought as a curio in a second-hand book store.
Therefore I can reliably inform you both that a young bloke called James Halliday used to be the winemaker for Brokenwood (***** no less), and that if you have any Karrawirra Fronignan Spaetlese Bin 72, by now all vintages will be - officially - and irrevocably - shagged.
“There are no standards of taste in wine. Each mans own taste is the standard, and a majority vote cannot decide for him or in any slightest degree affect the supremacy of his own standard". Mark Twain.
From long (and sometimes costly) experience:
1. "Drink from" is easy - if the cork is out or the screwcap is off, it's ready to drink.
Seriously though, this is as individual as the other drinking window marks, I can drink big alcoholic reds when young, fierce tannins only bother me after the third glass, I'm an oak-slut. So I can drink most reds from date of release, yet I do prefer many reds with a bit of age. If a wine had good balance, it should be drinkable almost from release.
2. "Peak" is a moving feast, again individual, sometimes you think it can't get better, sometimes it does, sometimes you think it has years to go and it immediately goes downhill in a hurry.
3. "Drink To" is a movable feast, again depending on how mature you like your wines. Red wine is amazingly resilient, sometimes you think a wine should be drunk asap as it is fading, then 2 years later you find a bottle lost in your cellar and it is magnificent. As your drinking journey progresses you may find you appreciate older wines more, or you may decide you like the fresh flush of fruit still there.
Of the widely published wine writers, Jeremy Oliver is the closest match to my preferences that I have found, if I take a few years off his "drink to" year, yet I find some wines that for me peak/fade well before his rated window and also some that are drinking well for my tastes a few years after the end of his window. No-one is infallible in picking drinking windows.
Solution: Keep good cellar records, allocate at least drink-from, peak and drink-to years and get into the habit of trying wines you expect to cellar for say 10 years every 2-3 years from purchase (up to 4-5 years for a first taste for wines you are pretty certain will go the distance). This way you will build experience with maturation patterns and detect when the wine has improved sufficiently to adjust the peak drinking period or get stuck into drinking the remainder. If you find wines maturing faster than you expect or differently to your hopes you can drink them asap or send them off to auction. Conversely those that are maturing slowly may have their peak/drink-to years extended.
Of course the dreaded bottle variation can play havoc even with this ordered process, you may strike a prematurely aged wine due to a sub-standard cork and decide to sell the remainder, only to taste the wine from a friends cellar some years later and find it magnificent.
If you don't adopt these habits and have a sizeable cellar you may find you discover too late that your particular 6-pack of some wines don't seem to conform to expectations and the wine is unpalatable to you. It's then a personal decision to send it off to auction, give it away to someone you don't like or pour it down the drain.
1. "Drink from" is easy - if the cork is out or the screwcap is off, it's ready to drink.
Seriously though, this is as individual as the other drinking window marks, I can drink big alcoholic reds when young, fierce tannins only bother me after the third glass, I'm an oak-slut. So I can drink most reds from date of release, yet I do prefer many reds with a bit of age. If a wine had good balance, it should be drinkable almost from release.
2. "Peak" is a moving feast, again individual, sometimes you think it can't get better, sometimes it does, sometimes you think it has years to go and it immediately goes downhill in a hurry.
3. "Drink To" is a movable feast, again depending on how mature you like your wines. Red wine is amazingly resilient, sometimes you think a wine should be drunk asap as it is fading, then 2 years later you find a bottle lost in your cellar and it is magnificent. As your drinking journey progresses you may find you appreciate older wines more, or you may decide you like the fresh flush of fruit still there.
Of the widely published wine writers, Jeremy Oliver is the closest match to my preferences that I have found, if I take a few years off his "drink to" year, yet I find some wines that for me peak/fade well before his rated window and also some that are drinking well for my tastes a few years after the end of his window. No-one is infallible in picking drinking windows.
Solution: Keep good cellar records, allocate at least drink-from, peak and drink-to years and get into the habit of trying wines you expect to cellar for say 10 years every 2-3 years from purchase (up to 4-5 years for a first taste for wines you are pretty certain will go the distance). This way you will build experience with maturation patterns and detect when the wine has improved sufficiently to adjust the peak drinking period or get stuck into drinking the remainder. If you find wines maturing faster than you expect or differently to your hopes you can drink them asap or send them off to auction. Conversely those that are maturing slowly may have their peak/drink-to years extended.
Of course the dreaded bottle variation can play havoc even with this ordered process, you may strike a prematurely aged wine due to a sub-standard cork and decide to sell the remainder, only to taste the wine from a friends cellar some years later and find it magnificent.
If you don't adopt these habits and have a sizeable cellar you may find you discover too late that your particular 6-pack of some wines don't seem to conform to expectations and the wine is unpalatable to you. It's then a personal decision to send it off to auction, give it away to someone you don't like or pour it down the drain.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Interesting topic. I think the scribes offer up their opinions with optimal cellaring conditions in mind, and perhaps personally appreciate aged nuanced secondary characteristics more than most of the general drinking public.
Winemakers generally go the other way. They seldom reccomend cellaring to the extreme as it ensures most of their wine is drunk whilst it still has a pulse, and thus few disappointments are recorded. My personal motto is tis better to appreciate potential rather than lament demise. You may not always scale the mountain, but you'll always get a good view of the peak from a safe distance.
LL
Winemakers generally go the other way. They seldom reccomend cellaring to the extreme as it ensures most of their wine is drunk whilst it still has a pulse, and thus few disappointments are recorded. My personal motto is tis better to appreciate potential rather than lament demise. You may not always scale the mountain, but you'll always get a good view of the peak from a safe distance.
LL
Fully agree with Brian here, drinking windows are a matter of taste and experience. Most wines will be a moving feast in terms of development with some falling in a hole for certain periods. the only real way to follow the development is to try the wines and use past tastings as a guide. Unfortunately some won't go the distance and others will pleasantly surprise.