I couldn't believe this...
On Saturday evening I went to Dan Murphy's to pick up some beers and a quaffer for dinner at a Greek restuarant.
In the past I have really enjoyed the 1998 Mt Chalanbar Cabernet, which I have only ever seen at DM at around $16 (not to be confused with Seppelt Chalanbar). They only had the 1999 but I thought I would try my luck asking if there was any of the 98' left.
When I enquired of the staff member his response was "oh, there isn't really any difference between the vintages for cheaper wines....you can only tell the difference with the more expensive ones over there." as he pointed to where the "premium" wines are displayed.
Is it unreasonable to expect a decent level of basic knowledge from the staff serving you?
In any case, it got me thinking of vintages where there is a big difference in quality with the same wine - 96' Penfolds Kalimna compared to the 97'. and 98' Wynns Cabernet compared to the 97' or 99'.
Has anyone had any similar experiences with incompetent staff? Or alternatively any thoughts on wines with significant vintage variation.
Cheers
Andy
Dan Murphy's Staff
Reminds me of the story of Liquorland staff member saying "I don't like wine, will that affect me transferring to Vintage Cellars?" - might just be folklore
Then I was actually working the day Leonard French dropped in to the store to browse - the staff member who talked to him said something about "some artist who used to own a winery"
reminds me I'm glad to be out of the industry
Then I was actually working the day Leonard French dropped in to the store to browse - the staff member who talked to him said something about "some artist who used to own a winery"
reminds me I'm glad to be out of the industry
At one of the Qld cellar doors I came across a staffer who was so incompetent I'm sure he was taking the p!ss. The two statements I remember:
The Hunter Valley is widely known for its quality gewurztraminer, and it makes the best in Australia;
There are rieslings in Germany that have been ageing in wood for over 400 years.
A good belly laugh, anyway.
cheers
Andrew
The Hunter Valley is widely known for its quality gewurztraminer, and it makes the best in Australia;
There are rieslings in Germany that have been ageing in wood for over 400 years.
A good belly laugh, anyway.
cheers
Andrew
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
My experience is that one or two staff know their stuff, the rest just run to them when a question is asked. I've gotten to know which staff to deal with at Hornsby - the rest I tell "I'm OK". Apparently some of the staff that have worked at First Estate have been asked to move across so that knowledge levels improve.
Firstly, it must be remebered that there are many jobs in the retail wine industry that need to be filled by casual employees. They are good jobs (flexible hours, decent pay) and many are students just doing it for the money. So its crazy to expect perfect service at every store, at all hours.
Having said that, I was appalled by a Murphy's staff members ability to tell me that every wine I pointed at was 'really really good'. Seriously, I could of pointed to a 4L cask and asked what would this be like in 4 to 5 years of aging, and he would of replied "really really good". I heard once that the shelf fillers and check out staff at Dan's are not allowed to pass a comment about a wine onto a customer. If you asked what something was like they would refer you to the 'fine wine manager'.
Having said that, I was appalled by a Murphy's staff members ability to tell me that every wine I pointed at was 'really really good'. Seriously, I could of pointed to a 4L cask and asked what would this be like in 4 to 5 years of aging, and he would of replied "really really good". I heard once that the shelf fillers and check out staff at Dan's are not allowed to pass a comment about a wine onto a customer. If you asked what something was like they would refer you to the 'fine wine manager'.
At the end of the day, DM are now 'wine supermarkets' rather than 'wine merchants'. They don't care what they sell, if it's good or bad, all they 'aim at being is the cheapest' and that's all they offer (and do they really offer that?!!).
Good wine ruins the purse; bad wine ruins the stomach
Spanish saying
Spanish saying
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radioactiveman
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:38 pm
- Location: canberra
In my experience, there are very few staff members in these big stores that know what's what, and I can understand that they are casuals or new to the industry or whatever. As a result of regular visits, I've identified which staff are useful to deal with and the most informative and I try to stick with them. Having said that, there are some young guys around that are really enthusiastic about their job and are educating themselves in order to provide a better service to their customers.
As far as Dan Murphy's is concerned, I haven't been blown away by knowledge or service except in the Chapel st store in Melbourne (is this still open).
In thinking about this topic, I wondered what people would consider the perfect wine retailer would be. I've come not to expect too much as this way I'm less likely to be dissappointed. I'd settle for someone who can tell me when a certain vintage will arrive, how much it will be (and for that price to be reasonable and not change after you place the order), and being able to talk to someone who has tasted it. Friendly, efficient service would also help, but I'm willing to let these slide if the other criteria are met. I'm used to being taken the piss out of by wine staff who say things like " it's called that because they put black pepper in" (in reference to E&E Black Pepper), or snigger at mispronunciations of French wine. Am I asking for too much?
Jamie
As far as Dan Murphy's is concerned, I haven't been blown away by knowledge or service except in the Chapel st store in Melbourne (is this still open).
In thinking about this topic, I wondered what people would consider the perfect wine retailer would be. I've come not to expect too much as this way I'm less likely to be dissappointed. I'd settle for someone who can tell me when a certain vintage will arrive, how much it will be (and for that price to be reasonable and not change after you place the order), and being able to talk to someone who has tasted it. Friendly, efficient service would also help, but I'm willing to let these slide if the other criteria are met. I'm used to being taken the piss out of by wine staff who say things like " it's called that because they put black pepper in" (in reference to E&E Black Pepper), or snigger at mispronunciations of French wine. Am I asking for too much?
Jamie
Jamie,
Look out for Adam (Fine Wine Section) at DM Belconnen, very helpful and knowledgeable.
All I want from a wine merchant is to stock or be able to get the wines I like (tastings a bonus) at a good price. I'm happy to do my own research and don't trust any of the retailers recommendations. That means I spread my buying around a bit as no one merchant carries all the reds I want to buy retail - where I can't get it direct or it's cheaper retail.
Look out for Adam (Fine Wine Section) at DM Belconnen, very helpful and knowledgeable.
All I want from a wine merchant is to stock or be able to get the wines I like (tastings a bonus) at a good price. I'm happy to do my own research and don't trust any of the retailers recommendations. That means I spread my buying around a bit as no one merchant carries all the reds I want to buy retail - where I can't get it direct or it's cheaper retail.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
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radioactiveman
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:38 pm
- Location: canberra
It is interesting to read some of the comments in this thread about bottle shop staff. I retired early less than a year ago and because of my interest in wine developed over more than thirty five years, being too young to really give up work and not wanting to appear a kept man by ‘her indoors’, I sought casual work in a bottle shop.
Managers in these establishments earn between $28K and $32K per year. Assistants of course earn much less. Casuals do better at about $15 per hour.
Most of the casuals are, as has been mentioned before, uni students with great knowledge of beer and bourbon and get these jobs to extend that knowledge. Should they get a liking for wine in the meantime and develop some skills will certainly help them when they graduate as medicoÂ’s and can afford good wine (just jokin' about the medico's).
People with extensive knowledge of wines have developed this knowledge from years of trying wines of all types and quality. If I was earning between $28 to $32K with a family, it would be difficult to go beyond a Sacred Hill @ $5 per bottle twice a week and my chances of drinking a 2000 and a 2001 dÂ’Arenberg Dead Arm in the same week would be like Collingwood winning the flag anytime soon (we Queenslanders can say that).
The number of serious wine collectors and drinkers that we see each week is very small. Most people come in to buy the cheap Chardy or Merlot on special for under $8 and the profit on that bottle for the store may be as low as 39 cents. Serious people have some sort of wine budget and seek out the best prices for the wine they are adding this month. I do exactly the same thing and get every brochure available before making my purchases. If my store doesn't have good quality wines on special, buyers will go to where it is on special.
Customers get to know your skills and seek you out when they come to the store (my store is small with usually only one staff working). If you can help to develop their palate and gradually introduce them to better quality wine, they appreciate that. I seek out certain people who I know have good knowledge when I go to the opposition to buy wines on special.
The main thing I want to say is:
Would you work for $28K to $32K for 40 hours a week?
Could you still drink the wines you do on this wage?
I do the job because it give me money to spend on good wine and I love meeting and talking to people about wine. As someone said
"So many wines - so little time"
Graham
Managers in these establishments earn between $28K and $32K per year. Assistants of course earn much less. Casuals do better at about $15 per hour.
Most of the casuals are, as has been mentioned before, uni students with great knowledge of beer and bourbon and get these jobs to extend that knowledge. Should they get a liking for wine in the meantime and develop some skills will certainly help them when they graduate as medicoÂ’s and can afford good wine (just jokin' about the medico's).
People with extensive knowledge of wines have developed this knowledge from years of trying wines of all types and quality. If I was earning between $28 to $32K with a family, it would be difficult to go beyond a Sacred Hill @ $5 per bottle twice a week and my chances of drinking a 2000 and a 2001 dÂ’Arenberg Dead Arm in the same week would be like Collingwood winning the flag anytime soon (we Queenslanders can say that).
The number of serious wine collectors and drinkers that we see each week is very small. Most people come in to buy the cheap Chardy or Merlot on special for under $8 and the profit on that bottle for the store may be as low as 39 cents. Serious people have some sort of wine budget and seek out the best prices for the wine they are adding this month. I do exactly the same thing and get every brochure available before making my purchases. If my store doesn't have good quality wines on special, buyers will go to where it is on special.
Customers get to know your skills and seek you out when they come to the store (my store is small with usually only one staff working). If you can help to develop their palate and gradually introduce them to better quality wine, they appreciate that. I seek out certain people who I know have good knowledge when I go to the opposition to buy wines on special.
The main thing I want to say is:
Would you work for $28K to $32K for 40 hours a week?
Could you still drink the wines you do on this wage?
I do the job because it give me money to spend on good wine and I love meeting and talking to people about wine. As someone said
"So many wines - so little time"
Graham
Graham's point is pertinent. Although, I don't imagine assistants in clothing shops, for example, earn much more, yet they're expected to be able to judge sizes, shapes, make recommendations, etc. It's possible there is a knowledge difference in a bottle shop between the 'permanent' staff and the 'casuals', although logic tells me it's probably foolish to have only casuals on the floor when many customers are buying - presumably the weekend?
Certainly, I wouldn't ever expect to get quality advice from someone working in a Macs, Quaffers, Liquorland, Murphy's, BWS (don't know what names these use outside NSW!). I might expect more in First Estate or Vintage Cellars, but in reality I'd never rely on it. Almost by definition, I'd expect a better chance of an informed assistant in an independent store...
cheers,
Graeme
Certainly, I wouldn't ever expect to get quality advice from someone working in a Macs, Quaffers, Liquorland, Murphy's, BWS (don't know what names these use outside NSW!). I might expect more in First Estate or Vintage Cellars, but in reality I'd never rely on it. Almost by definition, I'd expect a better chance of an informed assistant in an independent store...
cheers,
Graeme
Surely any reputable wine merchant and manager , irrespective of their pay would have comprehensive in-house tastings of their wines - wine companies would be continously sending samples to the main wine merchants etc. , main selling wines surely would be tasted so that information etc. could be passed onto the purchaser. I don't think the issue is pay - rather the wine education of their staff. it would be of course tax deductible to the wine merchant.
Cheers
paul
Cheers
paul
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Andy
Some really good posts above,
I take your point BobMac and Graham and have no problem with uni students and others working these casual jobs and not having extensive knowledge on wine.
However, when asked for advice they should refer customers to someone who knows what they are talking about. Otherwise it just reflects poorly on the store, as happened on Saturday with the "no difference between vintages" comment.
I too seek opinions from reviewers who I trust as well as this forum and friends who share the passion. But I do try and seek out stores that offer fair prices, a good range and great service/tastings. In Melbourne I have had great experiences with Randall's in AP, Tannins in Clifton Hill, King & Godfrey and Nicks, but I am always on the lookout for others.
Cheers
Andy
I take your point BobMac and Graham and have no problem with uni students and others working these casual jobs and not having extensive knowledge on wine.
However, when asked for advice they should refer customers to someone who knows what they are talking about. Otherwise it just reflects poorly on the store, as happened on Saturday with the "no difference between vintages" comment.
I too seek opinions from reviewers who I trust as well as this forum and friends who share the passion. But I do try and seek out stores that offer fair prices, a good range and great service/tastings. In Melbourne I have had great experiences with Randall's in AP, Tannins in Clifton Hill, King & Godfrey and Nicks, but I am always on the lookout for others.
Cheers
Andy
PaulV wrote:Surely any reputable wine merchant and manager , irrespective of their pay would have comprehensive in-house tastings of their wines - wine companies would be continously sending samples to the main wine merchants etc. , main selling wines surely would be tasted so that information etc. could be passed onto the purchaser. I don't think the issue is pay - rather the wine education of their staff. it would be of course tax deductible to the wine merchant.
Cheers
paul
Paul
In five months, I have not been offered the opportunity for inhouse tasting. Wine merchants take their wines to the head purchasing person in the group but this does not filter down to lowly casuals. When I once asked if I could get a discounted ticket to a wine show organised by the company, I was told that these tickets were for paying customers. As a matter of interest, I did purchase a ticket.
Wine education within these companies is non existant. Buy a bottle and try it yourself. Of course you get 10% off the shelf price, but it's cheaper to buy elsewhere when it is on special.
Enough wingeing, I love the wine and I love the job and people.
Graham
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Gavin Trott
- Posts: 1860
- Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:01 pm
- Location: Adelaide
- Contact:
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Gavin Trott
- Posts: 1860
- Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:01 pm
- Location: Adelaide
- Contact:
Anthony wrote:At the end of the day, DM are now 'wine supermarkets' rather than 'wine merchants'. They don't care what they sell, if it's good or bad, all they 'aim at being is the cheapest' and that's all they offer (and do they really offer that?!!).
I must agree
Quaffers is near me. It looks like a supermarket, it feels like a supermarket, its run like a supermarket, and so, I'm sure, its staffed like a supermarket.
It even has shopping trolleys!
No point in seeking advice I feel, you'd be very lucky to strike someone knowlegable.
Besides, most people shop there as against here, or other small merchants, based solely on price.
regards
Gavin Trott
Gavin Trott
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radioactiveman
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:38 pm
- Location: canberra
GrahamB wrote:PaulV wrote:Surely any reputable wine merchant and manager , irrespective of their pay would have comprehensive in-house tastings of their wines - wine companies would be continously sending samples to the main wine merchants etc. , main selling wines surely would be tasted so that information etc. could be passed onto the purchaser. I don't think the issue is pay - rather the wine education of their staff. it would be of course tax deductible to the wine merchant.
Cheers
paul
In five months, I have not been offered the opportunity for inhouse tasting. Wine merchants take their wines to the head purchasing person in the group but this does not filter down to lowly casuals. When I once asked if I could get a discounted ticket to a wine show organised by the company, I was told that these tickets were for paying customers. As a matter of interest, I did purchase a ticket.
Wine education within these companies is non existant. Buy a bottle and try it yourself. Of course you get 10% off the shelf price, but it's cheaper to buy elsewhere when it is on special.
Maybe I'm a bit simple, but surely education (of both the staff and customer) should be a priority or at least practised to some extent!? The mind boggles.
Jamie
I thought, by law, companies had to sink a certain % of their turnover into staff training?
I work at a big retailer and we seem to have a very "clued up" staff....MOST have a real passion for wine, a few with wine marketing/science degrees,vintage experience, etc and we all try the wines we have instore at every opportunity...staff dinners,tastings,instore tastings and the like....
Cheers
Dave
I work at a big retailer and we seem to have a very "clued up" staff....MOST have a real passion for wine, a few with wine marketing/science degrees,vintage experience, etc and we all try the wines we have instore at every opportunity...staff dinners,tastings,instore tastings and the like....
Cheers
Dave
Woolworths Liquor and Liqourland
I remember seeing on many occasions the 2001 Petaluma Riesling in both Woolworths Liquor and Liqourland. As I knew the 2002 vintage had been released and was after some, I asked the staff if they had had any and/or would be getting some.
The replies included:
- It's not released yet
- They don't make it anymore; and my all time favourite
- We've only got what's on the shelf
When I enquired further as to the possibility of another shop having any the replies were always 'I don't know' or 'You'd have to go there and see'.
Customer service is their forté!
The replies included:
- It's not released yet
- They don't make it anymore; and my all time favourite
- We've only got what's on the shelf
When I enquired further as to the possibility of another shop having any the replies were always 'I don't know' or 'You'd have to go there and see'.
Customer service is their forté!
Ciao,
michaelw
You know it makes sense!
michaelw
You know it makes sense!
DaveB wrote:I thought, by law, companies had to sink a certain % of their turnover into staff training?
Dave
Ah yes, the Training Levy! Another brilliant scheme dreamt up by a witless bureaucrat at the behest of an idiot minister in a futile attempt to convince everyone we were the clever country. As if the byzantine administrative nightmare of the FBT legislation wasn't enough to convince the rest of the world we were woolly-headed dolts, we had this bizarre exercise in paper storage to prove beyond doubt we had no grasp of the real world outside the feathered cloisters of Capital Hill.
'Suspended' some time in the mid-nineties, as I recall. Not cancelled, though. No admission that the whole labrythine concept should never have left the Member's Bar in the first place, but instead some weasely announcement that it had achieved its purpose (what? - demolished entire pristine rainforests to provide the endless reams to paper necessary to substantiate that valuable 'training' had taken place?) and was therefore being deferred. But, keep on spending the money, because it just might come back if needed.
Yeah, and one day when the House of Reps is in session 24 hours might pass without a lie being told in the chamber. Shall I hold my breath? Sure, I'll be the purple guy gasping in the corner...
wheezingly,
Graeme
as more and more indepedent wine merchants and bottle shops bought up by giant company like woolworth, coles and the like. less competition exists so they don't have to educate their staff as much to have an edge over the competitors. a greater percentage of wine buyers do not know much about wine. Special and lables become which wines they buy. something needs to be done to protect smaller shop that provides great service and knowledge.
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Gavin Trott
- Posts: 1860
- Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:01 pm
- Location: Adelaide
- Contact:
Rob wrote:as more and more indepedent wine merchants and bottle shops bought up by giant company like woolworth, coles and the like. less competition exists so they don't have to educate their staff as much to have an edge over the competitors. a greater percentage of wine buyers do not know much about wine. Special and lables become which wines they buy. something needs to be done to protect smaller shop that provides great service and knowledge.
Simple answer I know, and I am such a smaller operation, but the answer is, buy from them and support them.
You may pay a few $ more, but you get their expertise, passion, knowledge ... and continued existence.
Off the soap box now -
regards
Gavin Trott
Gavin Trott
I now work for an independant small liquor store in an environment where everyone knows their wines, even the casuals, but i worked for several months in a large chain store a couple of yrs ago.
The limitations on staff knowledge in such chain liquor stores are accentuated by several major issues
1. In most chains, drinking is strictly prohibited by staff in uniform on the premises, even out of uniform, after work ANS spitting. That means that even the weekly in store tastings are strictly off limits.
2. Because most buying in chains is done from a head office, reps will not bring samples around for staff to try (many reps will only stop in to make displays and collect ullaged stock). Regularly, winemakers will do rounds of the capitol cities with their local distributor when they release some of their wines- a great way to try new vintages, that is usually confined only to the odd premium chain and independant liquor stores.
These tours don't usually go past the store manager in chain stores so everyone else only gets lucky left overs (unlike good independants where tasting everything is encouraged). Further, as many reps dont visit the chain stores (it is usually only a merchandiser) no sample bottles are dropped around for anyone to try, let alone the broad range required for real knowledge
3.Further, only a select few store managers (if anybody from the chain besides the fine wine managers and buyers) actually attend major trade tastings and special events, which severely limits the knowledge of your average staff member, right up to store manager.
4.In house programs are only confined to staff in the premium chains, whereas the average education program is elementary, and limited at best (which leads to comments like the DM example above 'all cheaper wines taste the same vintage to vintage') giving a knowledge of the basics (shiraz is red, chardonnay is white) rather than extensive, ongoing education and experience.
The premium chains (ie Vintage Cellars and First Estate) have flexibillity in these rules and will have reasonable staff tastings and education, but the staff are simply not exposed to anything that falls outside their designated range book (Walk in and ask about Liebichwein, look for the blank looks)
If you want experienced staff who actually like wine (rather than just selling it) then go independant every time. Reject the vanillin liquor chain store, and check out Gavin's prices, comfortable in the knowledge you are keeping the forum alive.
Junior
The limitations on staff knowledge in such chain liquor stores are accentuated by several major issues
1. In most chains, drinking is strictly prohibited by staff in uniform on the premises, even out of uniform, after work ANS spitting. That means that even the weekly in store tastings are strictly off limits.
2. Because most buying in chains is done from a head office, reps will not bring samples around for staff to try (many reps will only stop in to make displays and collect ullaged stock). Regularly, winemakers will do rounds of the capitol cities with their local distributor when they release some of their wines- a great way to try new vintages, that is usually confined only to the odd premium chain and independant liquor stores.
These tours don't usually go past the store manager in chain stores so everyone else only gets lucky left overs (unlike good independants where tasting everything is encouraged). Further, as many reps dont visit the chain stores (it is usually only a merchandiser) no sample bottles are dropped around for anyone to try, let alone the broad range required for real knowledge
3.Further, only a select few store managers (if anybody from the chain besides the fine wine managers and buyers) actually attend major trade tastings and special events, which severely limits the knowledge of your average staff member, right up to store manager.
4.In house programs are only confined to staff in the premium chains, whereas the average education program is elementary, and limited at best (which leads to comments like the DM example above 'all cheaper wines taste the same vintage to vintage') giving a knowledge of the basics (shiraz is red, chardonnay is white) rather than extensive, ongoing education and experience.
The premium chains (ie Vintage Cellars and First Estate) have flexibillity in these rules and will have reasonable staff tastings and education, but the staff are simply not exposed to anything that falls outside their designated range book (Walk in and ask about Liebichwein, look for the blank looks)
If you want experienced staff who actually like wine (rather than just selling it) then go independant every time. Reject the vanillin liquor chain store, and check out Gavin's prices, comfortable in the knowledge you are keeping the forum alive.
Junior