The Best Australian Pinot ... ?

[Dragzworthy]

One pinot that I like (haven't seen mentioned) is Paringa. I think they do some great wines but it would seem as though some think they've fallen away a bit in the last few years.
I also really like ByFarr but sometimes it can have a tomato stalky note to it that I don't love, think this is stylistic rather than speaking to a quality differential.

[Sean]

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[Raymo]

OK I normally stay out of Pinot debates since it is not my thing and I think everyone knows my views on whether all roads end in Burgundy but my observations:

1) How many times do people say "this is the best Aussie Pinot... its almost like Burgundy / like an old world wine / etc" ... seriously, what is the point of making a wine 12,000 miles away from Burgundy in an entirely different climate and that is your best selling point? I agree, before air planes were invented that might have been a handy trick, but really.

2) Of the names mentioned, I had a Pooley 2011 and a Hoddles Creek 1er 2012 in February, both were pretty good. Both cost probably twice the equivalent Aussie quality of Shiraz or Cabernet. Are they worth it? No, but then even in France half the Bourgogne isn't worth what it costs either (and I dread to think about Aussie prices).

3) I am not surprised no mention of Lucy Margaux, the couple I tried were technically faulty. I am not a natural wine fan. Natural should not be an excuse for lazy or technically incorrect. I am quite sure some of the avant garde Aussie Pinot fits this category.

4) We are debating between about 25 decent Aussie Pinots. Some Burgundy producers make that number of wines themselves from all the different sub-regions/vineyards, or lieux-dits. I don't know if that is good or bad (except I do know it is good marketing, and I fully encourage the Barolo and Barberesco peepz to keep following the same path, as they are)... actually I do think it is a bit ridiculous and invites wine snobbery of the kind "oh darling, you should know of course that no truly good red wine ever comes from Marsannay, you really should go all of 5 miles away to Gevrey-Chambertin before even thinking of buying". But that is just me.

Re: Natural should not be an excuse for lazy or technically incorrect: YES YES YES YES! Can we get this up in neon lights wherever wine is talked about or sold?

[Wizz]

Mahmoud, I really liked Kooyong PNs when they were made by Sandro Mosele, but haven't had one for ages.
Cheers, Mario

Sandro has gone to Ten Minutes By Tractor. That was back in 2017 when they built their own winery. (Previously the TMBT wines were made under contract at Moorooduc Estate.) So it will be interesting to see how that goes.

I had a 2018 10X pinot earlier this month and it was bang on his kind of wine.

Yeah I'm liking 10X these days and not getting as much joy from Kooyong. Although 10X pre Sandro was pretty smart already.

To add a "no one has mentioned" - Yabby Lake. Tom Carson is a gun.

[Rory]

I'm not sure Sandro Mosele is even still at 10X.

[Sean]

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[Cactus]

Ok I am just drinking a Chatto Isle 2017 and it is the most incredible Pinot I can remember drinking in many years. I humbly nominate.

[Wizz]

Ok I am just drinking a Chatto Isle 2017 and it is the most incredible Pinot I can remember drinking in many years. I humbly nominate.

Its pretty good isn't it? as long as you like whole bunch.

Holyman ProjectX is of the same ilk,

[WineRick]

Tapanappa 'Foggy Hill' and his new 'Difinitus' are both tidy wines.

Forgot to mention Apsley Gorge - seriously good pinot in most years.

[marsalla]

Can we keep this topic going for at least 10 years, as I am in the process of planting a vineyard that will, I reckon, getr a mention in discussions such as these,

[Mahmoud Ali]

Apparently you are located in Italy, so where exactly are you planting your vineyard if you don't mind my asking?

[marsalla]

Sorry, I havent changed that since I registered, I used to be in Sicily, but am now in Vic, the vineyard is going in near Ballarat,

Cheers
Sean

[Polymer]

Sorry, I havent changed that since I registered, I used to be in Sicily, but am now in Vic, the vineyard is going in near Ballarat,

Great choice!

[Rory]

Haven't tried them myself, but where would Pooley sit in all this?

[Wizz]

Haven't tried them myself, but where would Pooley sit in all this?

I like them. Sort of new kids on the block in this top echwlon of quality though, or so it seems. However..

Seen the Winefront scores on the new releases ?

[Dragzworthy]

Winfront score is high or low? I like Pooley and Paradigm Hill...think these producers fly under the radar a bit though maybe I'm out of touch

[Wizz]

Winfront score is high or low? I like Pooley and Paradigm Hill...think these producers fly under the radar a bit though maybe I'm out of touch

89 and 90

[Tucker Wine Studios]

Visited the Pooley CD early this year and tried of the 2018 vintage the 'standard', Cooinda Vale, Butcher's Hill and Jack Denis (Reserve) PN's.
My impressions (and I'm still a bloody apprentice when it comes to Pinot Noir) were ... fruit forward (cherry, raspberry, strawberry), but also some minerality, herbs, sweet exotic spices, fine silky tannins, oak present but not prominent, overall rich, flavorsome and succulent wines, easy to like but not 'easy drinking', the wines have a firmness and seriousness. Jack Denis definitely a step up in density and concentration (but also significant step up in price $140). Sadly, the whole bunch Oronsay was sold out already.
Pooley's pinots from 2011 to 2018 vintage were usually rated highly. Unfortunately very sobering reviews by Gary Walsh for the 2019 Cooinda and Butcher. Not sure what happened here.
Cheers, Mario

[Dragzworthy]

Winfront score is high or low? I like Pooley and Paradigm Hill...think these producers fly under the radar a bit though maybe I'm out of touch

89 and 90

So like a suckling "I'm 95 points on that"?

[sjw_11]

It says it all about critics points that 89 and 90 are seen as being a dreadful result and a sign that something went horribly wrong

[Ian S]

It says it all about critics points that 89 and 90 are seen as being a dreadful result and a sign that something went horribly wrong

Fully agreed.

Parker set out to break the cozy relationship between critics and producers (or so he claimed), yet he was the one who realised just how much a '100 pointer' was doubly useful to the producer and to his own brand. Suckling has now taken it to the 'next level', but almost all wine critics are guilty of such scales. Big scores sell subscriptions (and also get you cozy invites).

FWIW I find Italians to have been much more measured in their scales, be it 0-5 grapes or 0-3 glasses, such scales avoid the overloading of the upper end of the scale and faux suggestion of success that 90 point award might suggest to a novice.

[Wizz]

Winfront score is high or low? I like Pooley and Paradigm Hill...think these producers fly under the radar a bit though maybe I'm out of touch

89 and 90

So like a suckling "I'm 95 points on that"?

Ok Ok, anyone who's been around for a while knows how much I hate labelling a wine with a score, so the fuller story - those scores are way off trend, much lower than earlier years which were 93s 94s and better for the black label wines. The tasting notes are, shall we say, "diplomatic" where in the past they have been complimentary. Something has gone wrong this year. Great wines in previous vintages, I have bought them from time to time too.

[Raymo]

It says it all about critics points that 89 and 90 are seen as being a dreadful result and a sign that something went horribly wrong

Or rather, it says it all about the consumers of those critics' output. 89-90 is effectively 18/20. Since when is an 18/20 wine a dud? Since the Holy Grail chasers are fixated on collecting (as opposed to thinking about drinking) the 'next best thing' according to reviewers (who after all are just expressing their own tastes/preferences - orange/natural wine anyone?), whether or not they like or know the wine, the style, the label, whatever.

[Tucker Wine Studios]

Hold on Sam, Ian & Raymo, it’s not about the points (I absolutely despise the points rating system). It’s all in the tasting notes. As Wizz said Gary’s notes were quite diplomatic and Gary says they are still ‘good wines’ but calling the finish ‘a bit soapy and diffuse’ explains the lower rating than usual for these specific wines. Don’t get me wrong, Pooley is a fantastic producer, maybe the wines get around, try them for yourself if you have the opportunity. Cheers, Mario.

[mychurch]

Off years happen - check out scores and reviews of ‘13 Lafite.

I still score according to the Parker scale. A bottle of supermarket Chilean Cabernet or Rioja with no Faults gets a 75-80 score. That’s fine. Most wines I drink would get a score in the 85 to 89 Range. A few time a year I drink a wine in the 95 plus range, but they tend to be older wines with a lot of bottle age. Last weeks brilliant 1990 Vouvray would 89/90 - on the border of 3.5* and 4*.

In that context, I imagine I would score a young Pinot in a difficult year low to mid 80’s.

If you go back to the guides, Parker himself always said that 85pts was a very good wine and 1 he would seek out. The score inflation at the end of his career was more to do with increases in quality and more confidence in his own judgement. He really thought that 00, 05,09 and 10 were younger, better made versions of 82 and 61. The scores just reflected the number of improved wines and I think he was more confident on how these wines would turn out after 10+ years in the bottle. A number of his critics thought he should have stuck to only scoring wines relative to each other in a given vintage, but I think he wanted to show just how far things had moved on.

What probably should have happened was that new critics like Neil Martin should have rebased their scores using a modern version as the yardstick eg make Latour 09 the standard for 100 points, instead of 75 La mission or 82 Pichon Lalande. We all want to read about high scores though, so I presume that idea was always doomed

[Dragzworthy]

Off years happen - check out scores and reviews of ‘13 Lafite.

I still score according to the Parker scale. A bottle of supermarket Chilean Cabernet or Rioja with no Faults gets a 75-80 score. That’s fine. Most wines I drink would get a score in the 85 to 89 Range. A few time a year I drink a wine in the 95 plus range, but they tend to be older wines with a lot of bottle age. Last weeks brilliant 1990 Vouvray would 89/90 - on the border of 3.5* and 4*.

In that context, I imagine I would score a young Pinot in a difficult year low to mid 80’s.

If you go back to the guides, Parker himself always said that 85pts was a very good wine and 1 he would seek out. The score inflation at the end of his career was more to do with increases in quality and more confidence in his own judgement. He really thought that 00, 05,09 and 10 were younger, better made versions of 82 and 61. The scores just reflected the number of improved wines and I think he was more confident on how these wines would turn out after 10+ years in the bottle. A number of his critics thought he should have stuck to only scoring wines relative to each other in a given vintage, but I think he wanted to show just how far things had moved on.

What probably should have happened was that new critics like Neil Martin should have rebased their scores using a modern version as the yardstick eg make Latour 09 the standard for 100 points, instead of 75 La mission or 82 Pichon Lalande. We all want to read about high scores though, so I presume that idea was always doomed

Thanks for this, insightful and I wasn't aware of why the Parker bracket creep scoring had occurred, helps me understand why. I prefer your method but ultimately I'm of the view that 5 stars make sense and one should average score wines around 3 being "OK". I think one of the reasons why critics avoid doing this is they're afraid of tarnishing reputations...but they're precisely there to judge and provide insights, however harsh.

[Wines101]

I am not sure what the best Australian Pinot Noir is, but 2017 curly flats... is very nice

[Ozzie W]

So I don't like Bass Phillip, but I do like what Phillip Jones did at Hillcrest. Last night I tasted a 2005 Hillcrest Premium Pinot Noir. The last vintage made by Phillip Jones at Hillcrest. Oh boy, did he go out with a bang! One of the finest Aussie Pinot's I have ever had the pleasure of tasting, and I've tasted a lot of Aussie Pinot.

So deep, rich and structured. This is clearly New World Pinot but with immense structure and length to burn. A different style of Grand Cru, if you will. The fruit/tannin/acid integration is just spot on. Sweet and sour cherry, raspberry coulis, earthy, meaty, spicy. Wow, just wow!