If you were starting your cellar again...

[Wizz]

Here's a hypothetical question for some fun.

Suppose you could empty your cellar and start again. Same budget, and you could buy wines of the same age.

How closely would this hypothetical cellar resemble your actual cellar?

[Mahmoud Ali]

Within limits, more Burgundy, Barolo, and some Ridge wines.

[Waiters Friend]

Interesting question. I'm not sure I would want to (start again). The journey to get it to this point, and any future evolution, has and will be a highly educational process.

I recall 15 or so years ago (and on this very forum) some similar questions from novices about starting a cellar - what to buy, how much, how long to keep them, when to try, etc. Much of the advice provided by more experienced people back then has turned out to be accurate.

As an example, following a random search I found this: http://forum.m.auswine.com.au/forum3/viewto ... 30e#p19114. Entirely coincidentally, the writer's name was also Allan! (No relation whatsoever). Some of the advice provided further down the post made sense to me at the time (I think I had just joined the forum around then). I'm sure there's been a number of similar threads over the years.

I'm still enjoying the somewhat experimental nature of my cellaring obsession, and over the years have narrowed down my buying habits (less dozens for a start), while expanding the vinous boundaries, especially internationally.

Cheers
Allan

[Wizz]

Interesting question. I'm not sure I would want to (start again). The journey to get it to this point, and any future evolution, has and will be a highly educational process.

I recall 15 or so years ago (and on this very forum) some similar questions from novices about starting a cellar - what to buy, how much, how long to keep them, when to try, etc. Much of the advice provided by more experienced people back then has turned out to be accurate.

As an example, following a random search I found this: http://forum.m.auswine.com.au/forum3/viewto ... 30e#p19114. Entirely coincidentally, the writer's name was also Allan! (No relation whatsoever). Some of the advice provided further down the post made sense to me at the time (I think I had just joined the forum around then). I'm sure there's been a number of similar threads over the years.

I'm still enjoying the somewhat experimental nature of my cellaring obsession, and over the years have narrowed down my buying habits (less dozens for a start), while expanding the vinous boundaries, especially internationally.

Cheers
Allan

OMG I'm all over that thread too! Wow, look at the advice i gave...

[felixp21]

If I could replace what I didn't want with what I want, which is essentially the question, I would replace the approx 1,500 bottles of Australian wine with Bordeaux and Burgundy and Rhone wines.
To be totally honest, I would only have those three regions plus Champagne and a smattering of German riesling in my cellar.
I would ideally have:
Bordeaux 35%
Burgundy 35%
Rhone 15%
Champagne 10%
Riesling 5%

oh, wouldn't it be lovely!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ozzie W]

Great question. I'd replace almost all the Shiraz I've got with my favourite B's -- Burgundy, Bordeaux, and Barolo/Barbaresco. Obviously, I'd have less bottles since the budget is the same, but I'd be fine with that.

[rens]

I'd junk all the Shiraz from SA and replace it with more Margaret River, Barolo, German Rizzas and a few more European wines.

[Mahmoud Ali]

These responses, and the previous thread that Allan provided the link to, highlights one thing, that this forum has changed quite a bit, from an almost exclusively Aussie-centric forum to a much more worldly forum. I've noticed this over the years and whereas once upon a time I would only post notes on Australian wine, now I will post on wines from elsewhere.

[Chuck]

More a re-balancing job. Less Coonawarra cabs and more Margaret River cabs and blends. MR cabs don't have that eucalyptus and mint flavours I find distracting in Coonawarra cabs. Also MR cabs are also more approachable in their youth. And more MR chardonnays that age well. The process has started but will take time to implement as I need to keep numbers under control. I'd love to have some Bordeaux and white burgundies but they are out of my budget. Sticking to OZ wines means more wines

Carl

[mjs]

I think I would definitely have more Bordeaux and Burgundy (currently sitting at a measly 2% and 1% of the cellar respectively, Bdx has been higher in the past) and the rest of the Australian stuff would be more focussed. Another thing, those bottles that you know are going to be special, I never seem to have enough of them (eg I bought a reasonable amount but not enough '82 JR in 1985, ditto '90 707 and BL in circa '93 ), so perhaps a little more quantity of things that appear to be destined for a long life. So, a broader sweep, more focus at the same time and targeted quantities.

Doesn't really look like I'm going to be able to fit it all in the same budget!

[JamieBahrain]

I would buy more wines I identified as being investment grade and dump wines that will always be obtainable. As my cellaring costs are relatively high, a percentage of my cellar being investment grade, makes the cash-flow worthwhile.

So a little more Burgundy and Bordeaux, more Italian and more classics from other Old World regions.

Having moved abroad near 20 years ago and being able to obtain foreign wines at a fraction of Australia and elsewhere in a tax free market, obtaining the classics at the expense of Aussies would be common sense.

[Redav]

and the rest of the Australian stuff would be more focussed. Another thing, those bottles that you know are going to be special, I never seem to have enough of them (eg I bought a reasonable amount but not enough '82 JR in 1985, ditto '90 707 and BL in circa '93 )

Interesting idea. So also in the vein of the OP, what Aussie wine they they have (maybe like the JR and BL above) would people hang onto if they were in this situation?

[Con J]

A good question to ponder.

I think I'm pretty happy with where my cellar is at the moment, so I wouldn't change much.
I've narrowed my cellar over the last 4 or 5 years to where I want it be.

Cheers Con.

[mjs]

I would buy more wines I identified as being investment grade and dump wines that will always be obtainable. As my cellaring costs are relatively high, a percentage of my cellar being investment grade, makes the cash-flow worthwhile.

So a little more Burgundy and Bordeaux, more Italian and more classics from other Old World regions.

Having moved abroad near 20 years ago and being able to obtain foreign wines at a fraction of Australia and elsewhere in a tax free market, obtaining the classics at the expense of Aussies would be common sense.

Jamie,
That's all eminently sensible, having been overseas myself for a couple of reasonable stints some decades ago. Access to Bdx and Burgundy was very good for me back in the day in London. Sadly, the Australian market doesn't provide the same economies with respect to Old World wines.
cheers, Malcolm

[Ian S]

I suppose I've already been through the rebalancing exercise, and indeed continue to do so. Where I've over-bought, they've to a large part already been marginalised out of the cellar.

Most of what I'd call a problem area, amounts to a dozen bottles (e.g. South Aussie shiraz) at most.

One great early decision, that I would do again, is to have an obsession with wines that are built for cellaring, and again I'd repeat having a range of styles from cheapies such as various rieslings, Tahbilk Marsanne, Rutherglen Estates durif, Houghton HWB etc. to grander bottles, including many that absolutely insist on cellar time. The huge win here, is that overbuying leaves you longer to edge them out of the cellar, or indeed the option to sell if the problem got too big.

However to balance that out, I think I should have got into the auction scene earlier, to get already mature bottles to stop me opening cellaring wines too soon. I stopped playing the auction scene when prices started rising up to or above retail (just crazy!), and haven't returned, but I have less need now the wines I'd bought retail have hit maturity.

I did for a few years get a bit too obsessed with the fancier bottlings of wineries, not necessarily 'investment class' wines (oh how I hate that term - I buy to drink), but often overlooking good cheaper wines that would have better balanced the cellar. This was most obvious with what I bought in Italy, as limited baggage allowances meant 4-6 bottles was often the limit, and I treated this constraint too preciously, so it was Barolo, Barbaresco and the like all the way. That started to change from 2012, when we drove over there and thus could return with a wider selection. Some of the cheaper wines (e.g. Mirù Vespolina from Ghemme for IIRC 6 euro) were a revelation, and I've subsequently sought them out. I still had place for Barbaresco, Barolo, plus a few other fancier bottles, but that trip started a trend to rebalance the cellar away from simply the fancy bottlings. On recent trips to Torino, I've enjoyed buying some of the lesser seen wines of Piemonte and have enjoyed what I've opened.

[Matt@5453]

I don't think I would change much to date with regards to what I have in my cellar, but I would change (and have changed) a couple of habits:

- Particularly for wines I've tried and really love, maybe buy 1 or 2 more than usual. I always say after finishing my last bottle: "I wish I had bought more of that."
- Buy a few more white wines
- Show more restraint & patience at times

[Rossco]

Im reasonably happy with my cellar so far, of course I have too much Australian Shiraz and Cab, but most of it is relatively young (2010-2014) and very good quality, so im not worried. A lot of it is birth year wines for my children, so its a while off being drunk. I dont regret the amount I have, its just I dont need to buy any more, no matter how many 'vintage of the centuries' come up in the next 10+ years. i just pray that my kids will like red wine when they turn 21+ (in Particular Aust Cab & Shiraz )

I only have around 450 bottles (in total), so there is plenty of scope to balance out.... whether there is plenty of room is another matter
entirely!

Im happy with my Australian Whites, so will just top up what I drink.
Need more NZ reds are on the cards, even some more Aust Pinot would be good (Ashton Hills, ByFarr ect).

I would like to expand my Italian range, Ports and Sauternes. Especially Italians, before I get priced out of Barolo and
Barbaresco which I can see happening very soon. Etna will follow that same path shortly, so better get onto that. Funny that
I still find Sauternes quite good value (apart from the TOP/d'Yquem types). Some simply stunning wines are floating around if you
look hard enough.

I would Love more White Burg...... but we all know thats a path to sadness, so have refrained from buying, one or two here and there.
I have probably been priced out of Bordeaux and Burg (white & red), but will keep looking and seeing what comes up.
I have some Champagnes, and im pretty happy that they are still in my budget for now.

Would like some German Rieslings and some Alsace (currently have NONE) and would like a few US Cabs and Pinot's but
that is well down on my list.......... better get back onto Cellartracker to actually get an accurate breakup of what I have and from where.

[asajoseph]

Allan put it perfectly - a cellar is a by-product of your own journey.

Would I love to have more Burgundy? Sure (my biggest splurges have been on Bordeaux & Barolo). But what could I give up? I don't know! I know a lot of people talk about palates changing (moving away from big Aussie shiraz onto something else), but I personally still love the style albeit in moderation & on the right occasion - usually when people who are less geeky about wine are visiting.

[JamieBahrain]

I did for a few years get a bit too obsessed with the fancier bottlings of wineries, not necessarily 'investment class' wines (oh how I hate that term - I buy to drink), but often overlooking good cheaper wines that would have better balanced the cellar.

Me too. I hate the term as well, but by gosh they are!

The "good, cheaper wines" are so readily available, years down the track at maturity and often less than retail release, that balancing the cellar is an easy task. But you can never get your hands on the "investment class" wines again unless you open your pockets.

[TiggerK]

Less NZ Pinot (keep a couple of choice producers like Bell Hill, Escarpment)
Much less Oz Shiraz (but keep a selection of the less Parkerised Hunter stuff from the 00-09 era)
Less $30-50 wines, focus on a slightly smaller cellar of higher quality over quantity. (Other than Riesling)

More NZ Chardonnay from Kumeu River, Neudorf and Bell Hill
More Champagne, because that extra few years cellaring does wonders for the likes of Krug NV, Comtes, Pol Vintage etc
Plenty more white and red burgundy from select vintages and producers. (would have had to drink the whites early to avoid premox, no problem!!)
More Oz Riesling because at ~ 10-15 years, I just love it.
Much More Jura.
More Loire Chenin & Cab Franc
A bit more Beaujolais, mainly from Thivin.
A smattering of eclectic, off beat stuff that (having tasted it) feels like it will cellar well.

Ain't hindsight a painful thing.

Cheers
Tim

[kenzo]

I started building my cellar up in the late 90s and early 2000s, with most of my wine up until around the 2001 vintage. Still abroad and with access to my cellar only once a year or thereabouts, I've observed the following in recent revisits (in brief):

The traditionals:

Good 90s vintages of "traditional" blends such as the Mentor, Signature and the like have aged deliciously well, with a lovely soft creaminess and wonderful balance. I wish I had bought many more of these for the long haul. Likewise Metala OP and similar.
Wines such as D'Arenberg's Old Vine or Footbolt shiraz have also aged superbly, seemingly with years to go. Still have a few of these and they're a no-brainer, and the price point means they can be a house wine.
Likewise Wynns black label and similar stalwarts would be enjoyable now, plus the added fun of being able to taste through verticals and the like. The odd stretch bottle of John Riddoch for example make a nice comparison.
Penfolds Bin 28, 389, and 407 were competitively priced back then, and have lasted well. I wouldn't revisit them at their price points these days. St Henri and Henschke Mt Edelstone were around at a bit of a stretch, and good bottles can out perform their higher priced siblings at age.

So my observation out of this would be to put down a small quantity of ageable standard label wines, with a couple of their stretch pricepoint siblings (and see later large format). I wish I had a few more of these, however based on my cellar access I'm not going to finish them any time soon.

Whites:
I had put down a lot of Rieslings, but drank or sold them off far too early. The Leonays were superb, but the Pewsey Vales and similar would have been great to visit again with a lot of age. These sorts of wines should be part of every cellar, and I wish I'd kept mine.
Wish I had aged more Leeuwin Estate Art Series chardonnay - an 87 in magnum had a few years back was stellar.
I did put a few Tahbilk Marsannes away based on advice from this forum - have revisited them at 20 years in 750ml bottle format and some were past it, some sublime with honeyed characteristics. Still haven't touched the magnums, but will do soon.

Having some aged whites in the cellar is a good thing. Even if your own tastes change away from them, they're still there to come back to, and others around you might love them more than you do at dinners or parties. I'd rather trust my own cellar's provenance on these than chance picking up older vintages at auction.

Aussie reds:
Despite Barossa and McLaren Vale being seemingly out of vogue from time to time, I'm glad I still have bottles in the cellar from the 90s and early 2000s. I'm looking forward to visiting bottles from the Barossa and McLaren Vale producers later this year.
I did put down some usual suspect cabernets, and have enjoyed revisiting some of these over the years too.
I did buy pinot at the time, but never kept any for aging. I didn't have as much exposure to the higher end producers back then.

Sparkling shiraz - ages superbly and I always wish I had more in the cellar for festive occasions. IMHO you just can't beat a good aged sparkling Shiraz. Glad I still have some Rockford and Primo Joseph; wish I had more Seppelts - some of the older show reserve have been mind-blowingly good.

Vintage ports and NV Tokays/Muscats - so long out of favour, you could pick these up sub-$10 back then at auction, and when they're on they're absolutely fantastic. Glad I still have some of these, and whenever I bring them out they're a crowd pleaser - especially when you show people the vintage on the bottle! Still also have a few bottles of more recent VPs and used to always try and get one in the mix in a case buy from the wineries.

Large format bottles - very glad to have magnums of the cheaper reds like Leasingham Bin 56 / 61 and similar pricepoint wines - they travel well in the larger format, and are great to take to parties or when friends visit. The odd buy from wineries like Turkey Flat and others will also be fun to look at in the next few years.

The holy grails - I did go through a period of trying to collect certain wines that had blown my mind or had some meaning - still have a few 82 John Riddochs and birth year Penfolds and Henschke, but I suspect I'll have polished most of the latter off by the time my next "milestone" birthday comes around. Haven't bought this type of wine for some time now however.

Yes I still wish I had kept more of my Bordeaux, Champagne, and Italian wines picked up in another country, but later travels meant I had to sell or drink. Still have access to more recent vintages, but prices have moved upwards since the heyday...

The collector in me used to find it fun to seek out the latest and greatest and source the rarities, but there are many wines I know I consistently enjoy and wish I had bought year after year.

I did used to try to buy at least 3 of each bottle depending on the situation. One to try, one to sample later down the track, and one to keep based on the second bottle's progress. And it if was a cracker I'd buy more.

I'm hoping to start in on building up the cellar again soon, but with the way prices are at the moment I'll be very selective this time around!

[felixp21]

I did for a few years get a bit too obsessed with the fancier bottlings of wineries, not necessarily 'investment class' wines (oh how I hate that term - I buy to drink), but often overlooking good cheaper wines that would have better balanced the cellar.

Me too. I hate the term as well, but by gosh they are!

The "good, cheaper wines" are so readily available, years down the track at maturity and often less than retail release, that balancing the cellar is an easy task. But you can never get your hands on the "investment class" wines again unless you open your pockets.

so true. For reasons that now totally escape me, hehe, I have a pretty large collection of the Wynns stuff from the 80-90's (not a single bottle beyond 1998)
apart from the 1982 vintage, I actually prefer the Black Label to the John Riddoch. Even in 1982, the Black Label is a ripper, but the JR that year is stupendous (although not up to the level of the 1976 Black Label, which is as good as any wine made in Australia from about then on)
I think the Black Label has a better sense of place, it seems to have more purity, and it ages phenomenally well (not something you can say about too many Aussie wines) Of course, that applies to the good vintages of Wynns, which actually counts out most of the stuff in the 90's. I must say, very recent vintages of Black Label seem to be a return to the good old days, but we will have to wait two decades to confirm that suspicion.

[Mike Hawkins]

Skip the off vintages and buy many, many cases of my favourite wines from the great vintages. I (now) don’t subscribe to the notion of max 6 or 12 bottles of a given wine. I wouldn’t get sick of drinking a favourite wine 3 times a year for 20 years....

Also, hold on to top rizzas for much longer than I have, and indulge in grower Champers 10 years earlier than I did.

[Scotty vino]

I doubt i would change much.
I wish i had more german rizza if anything. IN a few comparative tastings with aussie rieslings i've always found them to my taste but quite often i'm not sure where to start. Laziness gets the better of me when i find myself in a local region and I can't resist.
One thing i wouldn't change is my selection process. A very large chunk of my cellar are wines i've tried and susequently bought. Very early in the piece i started buying on scores and hype but i quickly learned how skewed this can be when i tried said wines at the cellar door. More often than not, when flagship wines and high priced hyped gear was on offer, i'd myself disappointed and quickly realise some of the mid tier gear was just as good (JR v BL a good example in this thread). Lesson for me was to build my cellar on my palate. Pure and simple. That mantra will never change. If anything i've found my palate has become a little more experienced and more focussed. So with that I carry on. Its hard to discuss such a hypothetical when your palate is ever evolving. Sometimes it takes time to 'get it'. But that's part of the fun and you have to 'go there to come back' in a sense. One thing I will say is always stay open minded. For example there seems to be a generic rejection on this thread for Barossa Shiraz. It's being treated as the rookie first rung on the ladder for some. I think this is a bit of reverse rookie error following some of the wines I've tasted recently coming out of the region. Change is afoot. Producers such as Standish, Izway, Sami Odi, Tom Foolery, Spinifex etc are changing the game. Yes the old styles are still in abundance but it would be folly to turn ones back on region based on past experiences.

[phillisc]

Good post Scotty

No worries about Barossa Shiraz here...Standish, Rockford, Greenock Creek, Powell and Sons, Quin, Yalumba, St Hallet, Heritage, Kaesler, Gomersal, Peter Lehman, Penfolds and some others have that sorted.

Starting the cellar again, nope...to be honest, I would like to finish it now, just once!

I do wonder though, instead of a measly 2 dozen 90 HOG buy that gave a 14 fold return, the purchase needed to be 20 or 30 dozen to really get things cracking. As a consequence the cellar today might look a lot different.

Cheers
Craig

[kenzo]

Definitely agree on the bigger purchases of wines that are crackers, and if I knew now what I did then, that would have been both possible and preferable!

As an exploration of a variety of new (to me) wines, learning to understand my preferences, and on a budget, the 3 bottle start worked well for me at the time. Some great comments in the threads above.

One thing I will be wary of when rebuilding the cellar again with the new vintages of many of the wines mentioned above is the "layering" of wines at price points above and below the labels that used to be rock solid. I need to do some research on labels that remain the same but are now lesser wines...

[paulf]

If I was starting my cellar again, it would look a fair bit different to what I have now. That isn't to say that I dislike what I have now. I'm happy with what I have and while I wouldn't mind having a range of European wines that I simply don't have now, what i do own now is a function of places I have traveled to, cellar doors I've visited, tastings I've attended as well as the cost and availability of of those wines.
There are certainly styles I find a little less appealing than I used to but for me, that just means there are less times during the course of a year that I'm inclined to want to drink that style, not that I used to drink it and now don't.

[Polymer]

Fewer average priced bottles....There are some regions where this is the norm..so like Jura, Beaujolais, German Riesling, Loire...and that's great...but I don't seem to know what to do with bottles in that same price range from other regions...

More Vin Jaune...a lot more...
More Champagne...
More off vintage Bordeaux
More Burgundy - It is odd how so much of my budget goes into this yet it all comes and goes....

[VINH NGUYEN]

I would buy more wines I identified as being investment grade and dump wines that will always be obtainable. As my cellaring costs are relatively high, a percentage of my cellar being investment grade, makes the cash-flow worthwhile.

So a little more Burgundy and Bordeaux, more Italian and more classics from other Old World regions.

Having moved abroad near 20 years ago and being able to obtain foreign wines at a fraction of Australia and elsewhere in a tax free market, obtaining the classics at the expense of Aussies would be common sense.

LMAO blindy freddy can tell you that...

[JamieBahrain]

Not sure of your take on my comments but one easy way to balance my cellar now has been buying "failed" investment fund wines. Some poor bugger spent their money storing wines at a great loss that many of us now drink at a fraction of their release prices.

So I'm not sure wines that are going to rapidly appreciate are that easy to pick for many punters? I found I was pretty accurate in Piedmont though I did not "capitalise" as I had a foolish desire to run "balanced" cellar.

A simple example being Giacomo Conterno Monfortino was available in three's for the price of Grange/HofG in Australia. Now, Monfortino is worth far more than both these wines. If I'd bough 100 bottles its over 100 grand Aussie now for an outlay of 20K. Yet I only have a dozen or so having wasted money pleasing my conscience with a balanced cellar.