Right, what are we/you drinking now .. tonight

[rooman]

yea, too right!!!
Bordeaux is incredibly difficult to assess out of barrel, much harder than Burgundy. My rule of thumb is that if it tastes good in barrel, it will be good. The 2015's were beautiful in barrel, as were the 2009's and 2010's. The Left Bank 2016's were/are fiercely tannic, IMO, and I am not confident of their balance. They might well go the way of the 2005's, (I never tasted this vintage in barrel), which remain, largely, tannic and un-yielding on the Left Bank, and super duper on the Right.
Plenty of palates far, far better than mine remain super-confident of the 05's, but I have my extreme doubts 12 years down the track..... are we looking at another, slightly better, version of 1986? Goodness, I hope not!!!
If I were a young Bordeaux lover, I would jump all over 2015, and have a quiet look at how 2016 turns out after a few years in bottle.

Not sure which 2005 Left Banks you have been trying but the lesser growths are developing into superb wines. The Du Tertre was one of my favourite wines last year as was the Chateau Marquis d'Alesme. On the other hand, the bigger wines such as Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages which I tried at the end of the year are still quite primal and tannic but will in due course morph into super wines with another 7-10 years in the bottle. For big vintages like the 2005, drinking the major names at 12 years is too early but I would be very surprised if they are another '86, more a 82.

[rooman]

2014 Chateau Mazeris Bordeaux: Earthy and savoury with slightly puckering tannins. A nicely structured wine. Went oh so well with the cheddar.

I haven't had one of these in years but really used to enjoy them. The wines from Fronsac always seem under appreciated and great value.

Mark

[rooman]

Every year is a great year in Bordeaux unless it’s a terrible year in which case it’s an “early drinking year”.
2014 is underrated. 2015 supposed to be good and 2016 even better (supposedly). I wonder how anyone can tell early given how these wines typically need 10yrs minimum... I think your decision to reserve judgement is spot on. I’ll be drinking a Duhart Milon 2005 in the coming days during my holiday in Koh Samui... I’m sure it’s too early after only 13 years but after trying the 1996 a few months back, I’m craving Pauillac.

I adore Pauillac and couldn't resist opening both a Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages towards the end of last year. The lesser chateau from this vintage are starting to open up for business but based on these wines, I would expect the Duhart Milon to still be too young.

[felixp21]

yea, too right!!!
Bordeaux is incredibly difficult to assess out of barrel, much harder than Burgundy. My rule of thumb is that if it tastes good in barrel, it will be good. The 2015's were beautiful in barrel, as were the 2009's and 2010's. The Left Bank 2016's were/are fiercely tannic, IMO, and I am not confident of their balance. They might well go the way of the 2005's, (I never tasted this vintage in barrel), which remain, largely, tannic and un-yielding on the Left Bank, and super duper on the Right.
Plenty of palates far, far better than mine remain super-confident of the 05's, but I have my extreme doubts 12 years down the track..... are we looking at another, slightly better, version of 1986? Goodness, I hope not!!!
If I were a young Bordeaux lover, I would jump all over 2015, and have a quiet look at how 2016 turns out after a few years in bottle.

Not sure which 2005 Left Banks you have been trying but the lesser growths are developing into superb wines. The Du Tertre was one of my favourite wines last year as was the Chateau Marquis d'Alesme. On the other hand, the bigger wines such as Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages which I tried at the end of the year are still quite primal and tannic but will in due course morph into super wines with another 7-10 years in the bottle. For big vintages like the 2005, drinking the major names at 12 years is too early but I would be very surprised if they are another '86, more a 82.

Rooman, yes, I agree on the du Tertre, like many of the Margaux minor Chateau, it is drinking pretty well, indeed, it was pretty much my mid-week quaffer in 2017 when I went thru a couple of cases. At $40, one of the truly great wine values (as are many, many lesser Bordeaux in solar vintages). I did say "largely" not "universally", and Margaux shows the most promise on the Left Bank. (as you would expect from the commune in a solar vintage)
I think i have a lot of experience with the 2005's, over the past 12 months, I would have had at least 25 Left Bank classifieds, and they were largely very, very tannic, closed and pretty one-dimensional, to my palate at least. I purchased a huge amount of 05's EP up here in HK, but have since liquidated almost all of my left-banks, but kept all the right bank wines.
If you look at the truly great vintages of the past 60 years, none of them were hard and tannic at age 12.
I don't have a lot of experience of 61 at age 12, but have had plenty from my father's cellar many moons ago, and they were always beautifully drinkable. He always claimed they were pretty much great from the get-go.
1982 was my first serious foray in Bdx, and those wines were beautiful from release, never overly tannic and never closed down. I purchased many, and there were no exceptions to the open-knit style. Indeed, many English, and one notable Aussie wine critic/maker, assured everyone they were so ripe and lacking structure that they wouldn't see the new millenium in!! At age 36, almost all are still drinking beautifully. Personally, I can't see any similarities between the Left Bank 82's and the Left Bank 05's, but I can appreciate your opinion on that.
1989/1990 were similarly wonderful, and certainly approachable from virtually the infant stage. A minority of wines from both vintages went thru a closed period, but my experience was that few were/are fiercely tannic. If you have a "British Palate" you are probably still sitting on both these vintages, but for me, both have been mature for the past 15 years.
2009/2010 are not yet 12, but even now, most of the 2009's are drinkable, although obviously young. 2010 is a different style, but is also quite approachable. IMO, 2010 will one day be seen as the greatest post-war Bordeaux vintage.
The thing that strikes me about 1961, 1982, 1989, 1990, 2009 and 2010 is their super balance, ultra-ripe tannins and high quality fruit (I reckon 2015 will join that group)
No doubt, 2005 has superb quality fruit, but as a vintage, it differs greatly from the above in that 12 years after vintage, the Left Bank wines remain, largely, unapproachable. To my knowledge, none of the recognised "legendary' Bordeaux vintages were/are like that.
However, only time will tell, maybe we should book mark this discussion and return to it in 2035, when we will have a much better idea of how they are tracking.

[rooman]

yea, too right!!!
Bordeaux is incredibly difficult to assess out of barrel, much harder than Burgundy. My rule of thumb is that if it tastes good in barrel, it will be good. The 2015's were beautiful in barrel, as were the 2009's and 2010's. The Left Bank 2016's were/are fiercely tannic, IMO, and I am not confident of their balance. They might well go the way of the 2005's, (I never tasted this vintage in barrel), which remain, largely, tannic and un-yielding on the Left Bank, and super duper on the Right.
Plenty of palates far, far better than mine remain super-confident of the 05's, but I have my extreme doubts 12 years down the track..... are we looking at another, slightly better, version of 1986? Goodness, I hope not!!!
If I were a young Bordeaux lover, I would jump all over 2015, and have a quiet look at how 2016 turns out after a few years in bottle.

Not sure which 2005 Left Banks you have been trying but the lesser growths are developing into superb wines. The Du Tertre was one of my favourite wines last year as was the Chateau Marquis d'Alesme. On the other hand, the bigger wines such as Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages which I tried at the end of the year are still quite primal and tannic but will in due course morph into super wines with another 7-10 years in the bottle. For big vintages like the 2005, drinking the major names at 12 years is too early but I would be very surprised if they are another '86, more a 82.

Rooman, yes, I agree on the du Tertre, like many of the Margaux minor Chateau, it is drinking pretty well, indeed, it was pretty much my mid-week quaffer in 2017 when I went thru a couple of cases. At $40, one of the truly great wine values (as are many, many lesser Bordeaux in solar vintages). I did say "largely" not "universally", and Margaux shows the most promise on the Left Bank. (as you would expect from the commune in a solar vintage)
I think i have a lot of experience with the 2005's, over the past 12 months, I would have had at least 25 Left Bank classifieds, and they were largely very, very tannic, closed and pretty one-dimensional, to my palate at least. I purchased a huge amount of 05's EP up here in HK, but have since liquidated almost all of my left-banks, but kept all the right bank wines.
If you look at the truly great vintages of the past 60 years, none of them were hard and tannic at age 12.
I don't have a lot of experience of 61 at age 12, but have had plenty from my father's cellar many moons ago, and they were always beautifully drinkable. He always claimed they were pretty much great from the get-go.
1982 was my first serious foray in Bdx, and those wines were beautiful from release, never overly tannic and never closed down. I purchased many, and there were no exceptions to the open-knit style. Indeed, many English, and one notable Aussie wine critic/maker, assured everyone they were so ripe and lacking structure that they wouldn't see the new millenium in!! At age 36, almost all are still drinking beautifully. Personally, I can't see any similarities between the Left Bank 82's and the Left Bank 05's, but I can appreciate your opinion on that.
1989/1990 were similarly wonderful, and certainly approachable from virtually the infant stage. A minority of wines from both vintages went thru a closed period, but my experience was that few were/are fiercely tannic. If you have a "British Palate" you are probably still sitting on both these vintages, but for me, both have been mature for the past 15 years.
2009/2010 are not yet 12, but even now, most of the 2009's are drinkable, although obviously young. 2010 is a different style, but is also quite approachable. IMO, 2010 will one day be seen as the greatest post-war Bordeaux vintage.
The thing that strikes me about 1961, 1982, 1989, 1990, 2009 and 2010 is their super balance, ultra-ripe tannins and high quality fruit (I reckon 2015 will join that group)
No doubt, 2005 has superb quality fruit, but as a vintage, it differs greatly from the above in that 12 years after vintage, the Left Bank wines remain, largely, unapproachable. To my knowledge, none of the recognised "legendary' Bordeaux vintages were/are like that.
However, only time will tell, maybe we should book mark this discussion and return to it in 2035, when we will have a much better idea of how they are tracking.

The one true maxim in the world of wine is that everyone’s palate is different. Although we both started collecting with the 82 vintage, our personal preferences have taken different paths.

I personally find that almost any decent Cab Sav or blend built around it from Aus or France is far too young at 12 years. At that age, I just don’t find that wow factor which I find in older Cab Sav. Whilst the tannins have often softened it is still too early for the secondary development to start coming through and make the wine interesting - though I wouldn’t quite put myself at the British palate extreme.

In this context I find the same with both decent Aussie Cabs especially those from Margaret Rover like Moss Wood and Cullen and Coonawarra like Wynns JR and Left Bank decent classified. At this stage of their development ie 12 years, I am really not expecting much other than awkward tennagers, pimply faced and all arms and legs.

The only reason I’ve started opening cases and tried any from 2005 is I don’t want the last thought on my death bed to be “damn I never tried any of that vintage”. So I’m slowly opening cases and reluctantly trying the odd bottle but not extensively.

The Du Tretre was different because it’s a Cab Franc based wine which is why it was more accessible. But the balance of the 2005 I will probably leave for at least another 5 years at which time I’m hopeful they will develop further. I also accept many will be left to my son who was born that year.

As for the 2009 and 2010, the few I’ve tried out of the cellar show quite different vintages. The 2009 non classified appear really flush and opulent wines - I’ve opened no classified growth at all. The 2010 in contrast are quite structured and tannic with less lush fruit than the 2005 or 2009. I suspect the 2010 might be your 1986 and never come right in my lifetime.

Mark

[rooman]

Given the heat this weekend, it’s definitely a been a chilled riesling weekend. Somehow it has just been the family all weekend so we have been trying a few of the 2012. Last night with an excellent home cooked Chinese meal it was the Pikes Traditional 2012. Tonight with Italian it was the Tim Adam Riesling 2012.

I’ve watched the guys on TWF talk up the Pikes Riesling over the years as a house standard but the 2012 is the first case I ever put away. Compared to the Tim Adams which lacked acidity to support the fruit structure, the Pikes was streets ahead. Big mistake not putting more of the Pikes in the cellar but a mistake I will remedy with the 2017 vintage. I’ve already put one half case away but in likelihood will add another full case. With some age it’s just so moreish.

[Dragzworthy]

Every year is a great year in Bordeaux unless it’s a terrible year in which case it’s an “early drinking year”.
2014 is underrated. 2015 supposed to be good and 2016 even better (supposedly). I wonder how anyone can tell early given how these wines typically need 10yrs minimum... I think your decision to reserve judgement is spot on. I’ll be drinking a Duhart Milon 2005 in the coming days during my holiday in Koh Samui... I’m sure it’s too early after only 13 years but after trying the 1996 a few months back, I’m craving Pauillac.

I adore Pauillac and couldn't resist opening both a Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages towards the end of last year. The lesser chateau from this vintage are starting to open up for business but based on these wines, I would expect the Duhart Milon to still be too young.

Spot on rooman. Opened it, poured a third glass and let it slow ox for about three hours. Opened up a little bit still very tannic... still managed to drink half the bottle.

Next day the remaining half bottle just felt closed off, shutdown... not sure how to explain it, almost like when you leave a wine out too Long (though it had only been overnight with the cork stuffed back in).

[phillisc]

A few over the weekend
2012 Pewsey Contours EV Riesling, third bottle of this that I have had over the last month or so...seems to be quite a bit of variation, from bone dry to being rather muted, to showing a lot of spritz, this bottle was almost carbonated...screw cap doing the job too well. Pleasant enough but think this needs stacks of time, will look at the next one in a decade.
2012 Primo Colombard La Biondina...picked up a dozen of these through an e-tailer for $6...thought being a 5 year old they might be shot, but they were fantastic, really refreshing.
2016 Petaluma Riesling...great wine.
1997 Bests Bin O, at 21 years of age a wonderful wine and bottle, still dark red, lovely savory meaty tones, with a touch of tinned asparagus ( reminded me of an old Rouge Homme Claret). Fabulous warm earthy palate, really rich and mouth filling. Easy decade left here.
1997 John Riddoch, always thought of this as a bit of a sleeper vintage jammed between its more favoured dates. This wine is just entering its drinking window...very dark fruits, olive, spice, tonnes of blackberry...beautiful smooth integrated palate, a twinge of sweetness...just delicious .

Cheers
Craig.

[Rossco]

2012 Wirra Wirra Absconder Grenache
Medium red in colour.... but still really bright for a 6 year old. Same in body as a light-medium with
red fruits.... almost candy like, but not overly sweet.

Quite spicy as well... black and white pepper.

Chocolate dust, red rope liquorice and a slight tobacco. Rose/Turkish delights are in there,
but its the tannins I really like. Soft, dusty and delicate... they are the real superstar here.

No real oak that I can taste, which is actually a good thing as it makes you concentrate on the fruit.... Acidity probably a bit too much/overpowering still and hopefully time will temper it down.... and if it does, wow what a wine this will be in 5 - 10 years.

[rooman]

I adore Pauillac and couldn't resist opening both a Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages towards the end of last year. The lesser chateau from this vintage are starting to open up for business but based on these wines, I would expect the Duhart Milon to still be too young.

Spot on rooman. Opened it, poured a third glass and let it slow ox for about three hours. Opened up a little bit still very tannic... still managed to drink half the bottle.

Next day the remaining half bottle just felt closed off, shutdown... not sure how to explain it, almost like when you leave a wine out too Long (though it had only been overnight with the cork stuffed back in).

Sadly well made cab savs go into a hole after about 3-4 years (and sometimes from day one) and really don't emerge until 15-20 years old. There has been a lot of discussion over time about how many bottles people like to buy. For me I generally like to buy half dozens, if I can, as time and time again I have started drinking a cab sav from a case and initially thought it was dead or average only to find the last bottle at 18 years or so just pops and delivers that wow factor. Obviously it doesn't apply to all regions but it does seem to apply to MR and top end Coonawarra and Bordeaux from good vintages. (You will have seen the discussion above with Felix but that is more a matter of taste and preference I believe).

Mark

[JamieBahrain]

My 2001 Basket Press stole the show from a 300 USD Chinese wine gleefully being presented by a friend who was drunk when he bought it!

2014 Ao-Yun from LVMH is a Bdx blend. Tight, very good, classic cassis mineral nose- long finish, silty tannins.

The BP has quite a reputation as a hard to get Aussie wine better than Grange. So were the thoughts of a few English chaps who loved it!

I felt it fading compared to the last bottle.

[BrandonS]

Enjoyed a Saddler's Creek Bluegrass 2012 Cab Sav (Langhorne Creek) over Friday - Saturday nights this weekend.

It's developing nicely, think I'll wait another few years before cracking another one, very enjoyable now but it's showing a lot of promise that I think will pay dividends in another 4 - 5 years. Hints of tobacco coming through on the palate now, dark plum is dominant, great full mouth feel, excellent tannin structure.

I've noticed that most of the Saddler's Cabernet's tend to have really long aging potential, I know I commited infanticide on this one but I couldn't resist the "check in" to see how they were going

[felixp21]

My 2001 Basket Press stole the show from a 300 USD Chinese wine gleefully being presented by a friend who was drunk when he bought it!

2014 Ao-Yun from LVMH is a Bdx blend. Tight, very good, classic cassis mineral nose- long finish, silty tannins.

The BP has quite a reputation as a hard to get Aussie wine better than Grange. So were the thoughts of a few English chaps who loved it!

I felt it fading compared to the last bottle.

.... wow, if he paid US$300 for that in HK, he must have been drunk when he bought it!!!

[JamieBahrain]

Yeah I think he paid about 70 USD too much?

[felixp21]

yea, at least. It is a nice wine but the 2013 is better IMO, and no vintage thus far is worth anything near the asking price, usually around $250AUD at release.
Rumour is the 2015 is a belter, but I haven't seen it yet.
Nice to hear of the Basket Press performance, when I was last down in Melb, I discovered I have a case of 1996 and 4 mags of the 1998 in the cellar

[felixp21]

Not sure which 2005 Left Banks you have been trying but the lesser growths are developing into superb wines. The Du Tertre was one of my favourite wines last year as was the Chateau Marquis d'Alesme. On the other hand, the bigger wines such as Pontet Canet and Lynch Bages which I tried at the end of the year are still quite primal and tannic but will in due course morph into super wines with another 7-10 years in the bottle. For big vintages like the 2005, drinking the major names at 12 years is too early but I would be very surprised if they are another '86, more a 82.

Rooman, yes, I agree on the du Tertre, like many of the Margaux minor Chateau, it is drinking pretty well, indeed, it was pretty much my mid-week quaffer in 2017 when I went thru a couple of cases. At $40, one of the truly great wine values (as are many, many lesser Bordeaux in solar vintages). I did say "largely" not "universally", and Margaux shows the most promise on the Left Bank. (as you would expect from the commune in a solar vintage)
I think i have a lot of experience with the 2005's, over the past 12 months, I would have had at least 25 Left Bank classifieds, and they were largely very, very tannic, closed and pretty one-dimensional, to my palate at least. I purchased a huge amount of 05's EP up here in HK, but have since liquidated almost all of my left-banks, but kept all the right bank wines.
If you look at the truly great vintages of the past 60 years, none of them were hard and tannic at age 12.
I don't have a lot of experience of 61 at age 12, but have had plenty from my father's cellar many moons ago, and they were always beautifully drinkable. He always claimed they were pretty much great from the get-go.
1982 was my first serious foray in Bdx, and those wines were beautiful from release, never overly tannic and never closed down. I purchased many, and there were no exceptions to the open-knit style. Indeed, many English, and one notable Aussie wine critic/maker, assured everyone they were so ripe and lacking structure that they wouldn't see the new millenium in!! At age 36, almost all are still drinking beautifully. Personally, I can't see any similarities between the Left Bank 82's and the Left Bank 05's, but I can appreciate your opinion on that.
1989/1990 were similarly wonderful, and certainly approachable from virtually the infant stage. A minority of wines from both vintages went thru a closed period, but my experience was that few were/are fiercely tannic. If you have a "British Palate" you are probably still sitting on both these vintages, but for me, both have been mature for the past 15 years.
2009/2010 are not yet 12, but even now, most of the 2009's are drinkable, although obviously young. 2010 is a different style, but is also quite approachable. IMO, 2010 will one day be seen as the greatest post-war Bordeaux vintage.
The thing that strikes me about 1961, 1982, 1989, 1990, 2009 and 2010 is their super balance, ultra-ripe tannins and high quality fruit (I reckon 2015 will join that group)
No doubt, 2005 has superb quality fruit, but as a vintage, it differs greatly from the above in that 12 years after vintage, the Left Bank wines remain, largely, unapproachable. To my knowledge, none of the recognised "legendary' Bordeaux vintages were/are like that.
However, only time will tell, maybe we should book mark this discussion and return to it in 2035, when we will have a much better idea of how they are tracking.

The one true maxim in the world of wine is that everyone’s palate is different. Although we both started collecting with the 82 vintage, our personal preferences have taken different paths.

I personally find that almost any decent Cab Sav or blend built around it from Aus or France is far too young at 12 years. At that age, I just don’t find that wow factor which I find in older Cab Sav. Whilst the tannins have often softened it is still too early for the secondary development to start coming through and make the wine interesting - though I wouldn’t quite put myself at the British palate extreme.

In this context I find the same with both decent Aussie Cabs especially those from Margaret Rover like Moss Wood and Cullen and Coonawarra like Wynns JR and Left Bank decent classified. At this stage of their development ie 12 years, I am really not expecting much other than awkward tennagers, pimply faced and all arms and legs.

The only reason I’ve started opening cases and tried any from 2005 is I don’t want the last thought on my death bed to be “damn I never tried any of that vintage”. So I’m slowly opening cases and reluctantly trying the odd bottle but not extensively.

The Du Tretre was different because it’s a Cab Franc based wine which is why it was more accessible. But the balance of the 2005 I will probably leave for at least another 5 years at which time I’m hopeful they will develop further. I also accept many will be left to my son who was born that year.

As for the 2009 and 2010, the few I’ve tried out of the cellar show quite different vintages. The 2009 non classified appear really flush and opulent wines - I’ve opened no classified growth at all. The 2010 in contrast are quite structured and tannic with less lush fruit than the 2005 or 2009. I suspect the 2010 might be your 1986 and never come right in my lifetime.

Mark

hi Mark.... forgot to mention we went thru a case of the 2005 La Clemence over the CNY up here, a beautiful wine and drinking sensationally. I would certainly agree that 2005 on the right bank is mind-blowingly good. As usual in great Bdx vintages, there were so many bargains to be had from places like Lalande de Pomerol and the St Emilion lesser lights... particularly the latter after RPJ called 2005 St Em's crap in the early days (he, of course, did a complete about-face 10 years after the vintage, but by then I had been able to capitalise fully on his nonsense )
your thoughts on 2010 are interesting, I find them tannic but approachable already... indeed I had a 2010 Grand Puy Lacoste the other day that was just wonderful. The 86's were, and most remain, out of balance, which I don't find in 2010. I am still sitting on several cases of 86, in the hope they come around. Frankly, having to wait almost 40 years for any wine is something I find ridiculous.

[Bobthebuilder]

Hi Felix,
It might just be your unique palate
Please pm me and I will give you my address so you can send me one of those 86 ers to sample and I will provide you with an honest opinion on how they are drinking

[felixp21]

Hi Felix,
It might just be your unique palate
Please pm me and I will give you my address so you can send me one of those 86 ers to sample and I will provide you with an honest opinion on how they are drinking

hahaha, yea, maybe I will finally turn up to an off-line one day, and I'll bring a couple along. Sadly, it's not my unique palate, there are plenty of wine-lovers still complaining about 86.

[Mike Hawkins]

Hi Felix,
It might just be your unique palate
Please pm me and I will give you my address so you can send me one of those 86 ers to sample and I will provide you with an honest opinion on how they are drinking

hahaha, yea, maybe I will finally turn up to an off-line one day, and I'll bring a couple along. Sadly, it's not my unique palate, there are plenty of wine-lovers still complaining about 86.

And 88, and I suspect some 95s in the future....

[rooman]

hi Mark.... forgot to mention we went thru a case of the 2005 La Clemence over the CNY up here, a beautiful wine and drinking sensationally. I would certainly agree that 2005 on the right bank is mind-blowingly good. As usual in great Bdx vintages, there were so many bargains to be had from places like Lalande de Pomerol and the St Emilion lesser lights... particularly the latter after RPJ called 2005 St Em's crap in the early days (he, of course, did a complete about-face 10 years after the vintage, but by then I had been able to capitalise fully on his nonsense )
your thoughts on 2010 are interesting, I find them tannic but approachable already... indeed I had a 2010 Grand Puy Lacoste the other day that was just wonderful. The 86's were, and most remain, out of balance, which I don't find in 2010. I am still sitting on several cases of 86, in the hope they come around. Frankly, having to wait almost 40 years for any wine is something I find ridiculous.

Sadly I have not tried La Clemence and to be honest if I could rebalance my cellar, I would trade a few of the Left Bank wines for more Right Bank. I do like GPL however and have a bit of the 2010 tucked away. For the same reasons above however, I have only just tried one of the 2005 so far so I can't see myself getting out the screwdriver for the 2010 for another decade.

I have been wondering however how our palates have diverted so significantly given we come off a similar base. I wonder, since you are in HK, whether you tend to drink these wines more often with Chinese food? I appreciate there are wide range of styles in China but I find whenever I cook or order Chinese I invariably order at least one spicy dish - more if the kids aren't dining with us.

For this reason I could see why perhaps you prefer younger and slightly fresher reds. I am guessing with older reds that the stronger Chinese flavours would potentially overpower the wines. I appreciate this is a gross generalization but find with Chinese food, I almost always prefer aromatic whites wines due to the stronger acid structure. In contrast, I tend to drink the older reds with lamb roasts and steak etc. It is just a thought but does the dominant cuisine one eats affect ones wine preferences over time.

Mark

[felixp21]

yes, a lot of people state the term "Chinese food" which is actually no different from the term "European food"
there are a huge number of diverse Cuisine throughout China, lumped into seven main regions. Stuff from the South, South Central and South West is indeed spicy, particularly from places like Changsha and ChongQing.
However, food from the North East regions are much more "European-like" and, as a generalisation, have far less spice than their Southern counterparts.
Even though I live in SZ, in the South, it is an "immigrant" city (special economic zone) and as such, all of China's cuisines are widely available. For me, I almost always eat food from the North, less spicy, which is amplified by the fact that our cook at home is from the North. Typically, I drink Bordeaux with beef, lamb or wild boar (when in season) dishes, and red Burgundy with chicken, pork and duck dishes. Often have Bordeaux with simple noodle or dumpling dishes, and usually drink White Burgundy with fish, although Fiano gets a fairly decent run too.
If you can find affordable 2005 Right Banks down there, I urge you to try one. La Clemence is certainly considered a "lesser" Pomerol, off the plateau, but in good vintages it absolutely out-performs it's station. Feytit-Clinet is also a ripping little Pomerol. I would imagine these wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, should be about the same as du Tertre.
I guess the main reason I drink younger wines up here is because my HK cellar only really dates back to 2006, and therefore most of it is from recent vintages. I occasionally buy older wines up here, but only cheaper ones, as the fake market is absolutely thriving in HK (as it is in the mainland)
When in Aus, I am more than happy to open my older bottles out of the cellar, you know, the ones hidden under younger vintages in the diamonds so the thirsty sons can't find them

[felixp21]

oh, cellar dates back to 2006, so wines pretty much from about 2003 onwards.

[Bobthebuilder]

2012 Castagna Genesis
I like this very much
great structure laden with dark fruit but still retaining the mouthfeel of a medium bodied wine.
A little savoury and some earthy and herby flavours.
good stuff and will do my best to hold the other bottle for atleast 5 - 10 years more, hopefully!

[rooman]

yes, a lot of people state the term "Chinese food" which is actually no different from the term "European food"
there are a huge number of diverse Cuisine throughout China, lumped into seven main regions. Stuff from the South, South Central and South West is indeed spicy, particularly from places like Changsha and ChongQing.
However, food from the North East regions are much more "European-like" and, as a generalisation, have far less spice than their Southern counterparts.
Even though I live in SZ, in the South, it is an "immigrant" city (special economic zone) and as such, all of China's cuisines are widely available. For me, I almost always eat food from the North, less spicy, which is amplified by the fact that our cook at home is from the North. Typically, I drink Bordeaux with beef, lamb or wild boar (when in season) dishes, and red Burgundy with chicken, pork and duck dishes. Often have Bordeaux with simple noodle or dumpling dishes, and usually drink White Burgundy with fish, although Fiano gets a fairly decent run too.

I bought an excellent Chinese cookbook last year from the US called China The Cookbook by two Chinese chefs, a Mr & Mrs Chan. At 700 pages long, it has a superb introduction that works its way through the eight cuisines of China, though I see you prefer seven. Its been an excellent introduction to the various regional difference. With close to 1000 recipes, I may however never get through them all but so far I am having a good crack at it.

Mark

[felixp21]

haha, yea, a lot of chefs, and books, usually Westernised Chinese expats, classify the best "eight" cuisines. These are considered the "best" by these people, although China has scores more cuisine than that.
However, that classification basically ignores all of the NE China. The "eight" cuisines only go as far North as Shandong, so basically everything North of there has been ignored (which is ridiculous, as the ignored area includes Jin Cuisine, Beijing, the home of China's most famous dish!!!!)
It also basically ignores Yunnan, which many people think produces China's finest cuisine (best noodles in the World, IMO)
Mainlanders talk about the seven great regions/cuisine, and, for example, the cuisines of Anhui and Fujian in your classification are seen as the same.

A lot of Northerners are quite pissed off with that strange "eight cuisine" notion, but many Southerners think it's the go lol.
'

[Bobthebuilder]

yes, a lot of people state the term "Chinese food" which is actually no different from the term "European food"
there are a huge number of diverse Cuisine throughout China, lumped into seven main regions. Stuff from the South, South Central and South West is indeed spicy, particularly from places like Changsha and ChongQing.
However, food from the North East regions are much more "European-like" and, as a generalisation, have far less spice than their Southern counterparts.
Even though I live in SZ, in the South, it is an "immigrant" city (special economic zone) and as such, all of China's cuisines are widely available. For me, I almost always eat food from the North, less spicy, which is amplified by the fact that our cook at home is from the North. Typically, I drink Bordeaux with beef, lamb or wild boar (when in season) dishes, and red Burgundy with chicken, pork and duck dishes. Often have Bordeaux with simple noodle or dumpling dishes, and usually drink White Burgundy with fish, although Fiano gets a fairly decent run too.

I bought an excellent Chinese cookbook last year from the US called China The Cookbook by two Chinese chefs, a Mr & Mrs Chan. At 700 pages long, it has a superb introduction that works its way through the eight cuisines of China, though I see you prefer seven. Its been an excellent introduction to the various regional difference. With close to 1000 recipes, I may however never get through them all but so far I am having a good crack at it.

Mark

Does it have a chilli tripe from the Hunan province recipe?
If so I look forward to your invitation to sample once you have perfected this superb dish
It will go beautifully will a nice Riesling which I know you don’t mind occasionally

[Dragzworthy]

The eight cuisines of China according to most aussies are:

Mongolian Beef
sweet n sour pork
Chicken with cashews
Lemon chicken
Beef and black bean
Chow mein chicken
Honey chicken
Beef with broccoli

I hope no one is offended... this from someone who spent a lot of time in China but experienced aforementioned in the 80s growing up in ‘stralia.

[Ian S]

You probably get a more wide-ranging set of styles than us - outside of a small number of specialist restaurants, most will be an anglicised version brought from Hong Kong.

We did have a wonderful one for a while here, the stuff from the standard menu was stunning and unlike the typical bland 'chinese' food that has taken root here over recent decades. There was also a chinese language menu, which also had all the stuff we'd be too squeamish to eat, but loved by the chinese folk that were eating there. As good as it gets over here IME. It then shut.

A few months later it re-opened, but when our friends went to eat there, the staff were oddly reluctant to serve food, saying they were fully booked when it was almost empty and they wouldn't even do a take-away. Roll on a couple of months and it's been closed down again, but this time by the police as they'd been using the 'restaurant' as a front for a brothel!

[BrandonS]

Had the '07 Turkey Flat Grenache last night - just great wine.

It actually seemed like it could have continued to develope for another few years, but it was drinking really well. The bottle disappeared pretty fast considering it was a school night, but I shared it with the old man and we just couldn't stop topping our glasses up.

[Chuck]

After assisting Roger Pike as one of his volunteer to harvest some of his 2018 grapes at Marius Wines in McLaren Vale yesterday we took part in an interesting and fun tasting of his and other MV wines, some in an options format. Riedel shiraz glasses used. Those tasted included:

Marius Wines 2016 Symphony Shiraz (Release date Sept18). His flagship wine and very impressive with great fruit and serious oak. French I think.Needs plenty of cellar time.

Marius Wines 2016 Simpatico Shiraz and back vintages 2004,2005, 2006. His entry level wine but still estate grown grapes. The back vintages were in great shape with the screwcaps locking in the flavour.

Marius Wines 2016 Symposium Shiraz Mourvedre. An interesting style with the Mourvedre sourced from a local grower.

Lazy Ballarina 2005 McLaren Vale Shiraz. An obscure label and really good juice. Good fruit and structure. Lovely perfumed nose. Cork gods were kind

The Good Doctor 2007 McLaren Vale/Adelaide Hills Tannat, Cabernet Sauvignon, Shiraz. An interesting blend that worked well. Not sure what the ratios were. Again cork gods were kind.

Roger is always looking for volunteer pickers. All his grapes are harvested by volunteers over 3 days in late Feb/early March each year. No experience required and you are well fed and watered and rewarded with a take home pack of his wines. A good way to get these hard to source wines. Drop him a PM or email if interested next year. I think he still needs help this Saturday too.

Cheers

Carl