Likely heat damage to wine in cellar? (Adelaide heatwave)

[trufflequeen]

Hi all.

I've been travelling around Europe for the last few weeks, and have been watching the weather in Adelaide from afar with some trepidation.

I have around 250 bottles stored in a cellar under our house. As a cellar goes, while it's a cool, dark space under the house, it's not greatly insulated - there are some thin walls and a light well we've boarded up which I think lead to greater temperature variation than desired. Having tracked the temperature over the past 6 months, generally speaking, the temperature fluctuates between around 14-18 degrees (though with very gradual changes). As my collection grows, I've been meaning to install an air conditioning unit and / or purchase a decent wine fridge to protect our best bottles, but that hasn't happened yet.

Anyhow, as we're travelling, the house has been empty, with no air conditioning running through the recent Adelaide heatwave. To get an idea of how dire things are in the cellar, I asked a relative to check the temperature down there, and yesterday (when it was 43 degrees outside, the peak heat), the gauge was showing a temperature of 24.7 c. Assuming that this is the highest temperature the cellar has gotten so far, and that the temperature increases and decreases happen fairly slowly, a few questions:
What are the chances of heat damage? (I'm assuming quite high)
How can I tell - is it just a matter of opening a few bottles and tasting? Or are there other symptoms I should be looking for (i.e. with my cork bottles)
And what would this mean for, say a 2012 Wendouree shiraz - should I be assuming that something I'd put away intending to cellar for 15-20 years should now be opened much earlier?

Either way, I'll definitely be looking at some options to protect my collection from the next heat wave.

[Polymer]

It'll be fine...

Wine is a lot more sturdy than people give it credit for and 24.7 is not that high....

[swirler]

agreed. The wine you buy is often warehoused at around 25'c (eg. Vinpac in the Barossa), so there's no point worrying about a few days more at this temperature.

[catchnrelease]

I start worrying at 27-28C+ for a prolonged period (months).

25C is not ideal but if it's only for a short period of time it should be okay. Try a few bottles near the gauge itself, if they're fine then the rest will be fine.

The only slight concern would be for wines with early/short drinking windows and having their short lives cut even shorter, but again the temp would have to stay up around 25C for a lot longer than a few days.

[Scotty vino]

24.7 is far from catastrophic.
if it's like most cellars temp change is slow and steady. If it was jumping around all over the place
you might have a problem but I wouldn't be concerned.
I've kept an eye on the temp in mine and it's sat at 19.5 the whole heatwave.
The difference I'm sure is that i've had my aircon running 80% of the time.
Even the vintec has struggled a bit. I have it set at 13 and it peaked at 17 for a short time
which I've never seen. For consistency the cellar out did it easily.

this morning the temp has dropped to 20 degrees outside in ade so windows open.
relief! finally.

[Luke W]

An episode of Columbo many years ago suggested that for wine to "go off" it needed to reached a temp of 42 degrees centigrade for 20 minutes (that is the wine temp inside the bottle). I'm not sure whether that is accurate (no doubt there are a few wine scientists on the forum who could elucidate). I know that in the 70's and 80's my wine would go into the mid to high 20's for the summer period. I enjoyed all of those wines over a 20 year period without any showing obvious heat damage. No doubt they matured faster than wine kept at a cool temp but careful selection meant that those that were likely to have lesser life spans were consumed quicker.
Nowadays with Stelvins we've obviated the problems caused by the capriciousness of the corks and their reactions to heat variance. In fact some heat variation may give you some sought after maturation that you won't get in a 12 degree cellar....

[via collins]

At times of worry, I find it helps to think back to that stash of 1872 vintage Craiglee wines found by the Carmody family.

100 years stored in a tumbledown bluestone shed in a part of Victoria susceptible to all sorts of weather - and it came up trumps when opened a century later.

[JamieBahrain]

In reference to the Colombo study, I'd just like to add that warmly stored wines don't just mature faster. They lose freshness , complexity and structural precision . Ullage is another significant consideration too.

[Chris H]

The days of under the house cellaring might be limited given the way summers seem to be getting more extreme lately, Get a fridge.

[swirler]

We all see things differently. If we store wine in a fluid 14-20'c we'll say that's fine. If we've spent thousands on constant 12'c cellaring we'll say that's better, but the reality is that nobody really knows. Science included. Lots of theories, but definitely no certainty. Sheesh, even with all the data on climate change there's still lots of disagreement. Emotion is the real reason for belief, we find data to back up our hunches.

Still time for another Halliday and a screw cap debate before the year's out

[JamieBahrain]

The difference is significant and the only vaguerie is TCA. You can not compare properly stored premium wine to a warm and inconsistent cellar. I'd go as far as to say why bother storing super premium wine if you aren't going to do it properly?

[Diddy]

The wine you buy is often warehoused at around 25'c (eg. Vinpac in the Barossa), so there's no point worrying about a few days more at this temperature.

Very true! Recently attended a retailer tasting out of their warehouse and you could tell the air con system was struggling to maintain a low temp - certainly not sitting around the magical 12-15 you might expect.

[swirler]

The difference is significant and the only vaguerie is TCA. You can not compare properly stored premium wine to a warm and inconsistent cellar. I'd go as far as to say why bother storing super premium wine if you aren't going to do it properly?

It's fine to have an opinion. Many (most?) people in the wine industry would disagree with you. In fact, I've heard some say that wine 'lies comatosed' at 12'c and develops more nuance with some warmer/more varied temperature. Again, their view not mine. I couldn't possibly make any definitive statements for something that is so little understood scientifically, relying mostly on anecdotal evidence, where for every point of view there are often plenty of people who could reasonably argue the opposite.

Jancis says, "no great harm will come to wine stored between 15 and 20 °C (59 and 68 °F) so long as the temperature does not fluctuate too dramatically causing the wine to expand and contract rapidly, with a risk of letting air in." This assumes cork closures. Thankfully, in Australia most wine is sealed with screw caps. So even the fluctuation of temperature isn't such an issue.

Also, "Lack of vibration is useful for wines with a sediment, although this widespread belief is based more on hunch than hard evidence." Just because old cellars have certain conditions doesn't mean we have to replicate them all.

Most other sources concur, Wine Advocate says, "Temperatures higher than 70° F (21'c) will age a wine more quickly than is usually desirable. And if it gets too much hotter, your wine may get “cooked,” resulting in flat aromas and flavors. The ideal temperature range is between 45° F (7'c) and 65° F (18'c)"

Wall Steet Journal says, "There are many myths surrounding wine storage, some perpetrated by the wine-storage industry, some by historical accident and some by people with state-of-the-art systems who feel that their hardware proves their credentials as oenophiles. For a marvellously provocative, myth-busting look at all of this, check out Matt Kramer’s book, “Making Sense of Wine.” Among his conclusions: “What constitutes undesirable high heat really begins at about 70 degrees.” "

Professor Cornelius Ough of the University of California, Davis believes that wine can be exposed to temperatures as high as 120 °F (49 °C) for a few hours and not be damaged.

[trufflequeen]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm feeling less anxious now, and will try a few bottles when we get home to see if there is any discernible damage (but that's hopefully unlikely). Having said that, as our wine collection grows, I suspect the temperatures will also continue to rise. It's clear that I need to have better safeguards in place to protect our good bottles. I'll be looking to source a good, large wine fridge once we get back, and we'll also be looking at long term strategies to improve our cellaring conditions.

[JamieBahrain]

The difference is significant and the only vaguerie is TCA. You can not compare properly stored premium wine to a warm and inconsistent cellar. I'd go as far as to say why bother storing super premium wine if you aren't going to do it properly?

It's fine to have an opinion. Many (most?) people in the wine industry would disagree with you. In fact, I've heard some say that wine 'lies comatosed' at 12'c and develops more nuance with some warmer/more varied temperature. Again, their view not mine. I couldn't possibly make any definitive statements for something that is so little understood scientifically, relying mostly on anecdotal evidence, where for every point of view there are often plenty of people who could reasonably argue the opposite.

Jancis says, "no great harm will come to wine stored between 15 and 20 °C (59 and 68 °F) so long as the temperature does not fluctuate too dramatically causing the wine to expand and contract rapidly, with a risk of letting air in." This assumes cork closures. Thankfully, in Australia most wine is sealed with screw caps. So even the fluctuation of temperature isn't such an issue.

Also, "Lack of vibration is useful for wines with a sediment, although this widespread belief is based more on hunch than hard evidence." Just because old cellars have certain conditions doesn't mean we have to replicate them all.

Most other sources concur, Wine Advocate says, "Temperatures higher than 70° F (21'c) will age a wine more quickly than is usually desirable. And if it gets too much hotter, your wine may get “cooked,” resulting in flat aromas and flavors. The ideal temperature range is between 45° F (7'c) and 65° F (18'c)"

Wall Steet Journal says, "There are many myths surrounding wine storage, some perpetrated by the wine-storage industry, some by historical accident and some by people with state-of-the-art systems who feel that their hardware proves their credentials as oenophiles. For a marvellously provocative, myth-busting look at all of this, check out Matt Kramer’s book, “Making Sense of Wine.” Among his conclusions: “What constitutes undesirable high heat really begins at about 70 degrees.” "

Professor Cornelius Ough of the University of California, Davis believes that wine can be exposed to temperatures as high as 120 °F (49 °C) for a few hours and not be damaged.

The wine industry is rather deceitful when it comes to transport and storage. They have a lot to lose if forced to store and transport properly. I was approached by a guy with heat damage technology for wine bottles years ago and he throught he was on his way to millions. I said I felt there would be zero interest and I think there was- I must check in with him on this.

I'd be happy to present wines I've cellared versus the same wines via a secondary market purchase. Time and time again I've seen the results and they are startling with the better Aussie wines. Direct Chateau versus secondary market I have a lot of exposure to as well- doing one next week Jadot is sending the tasting wines to us though we have had to source dinner wines locally. In Piedmont it's becoming a real concern with producers who have been shocked by poor European storage and have stared their 10th anniversary releases to counter their concerns for their brand reputations- I've had Voerzio, Sandrone and Massolino with the Sandrone in direct comparison to a secondary market bottle.

If you've seen the difference it becomes obsessive . I was in ADL a few weeks ago and drove between real estate appointments to get to rockfords and pick up my allocation. Your wine can get off to a really bad start with the summertime logistics .

[grapeobserver]

There are some studies in this area. Here's a couple:
http://researchrepository.murdoch.edu.a ... 2Whole.pdf (see p88ff and findings on pp103ff)
http://www.awri.com.au/wp-content/uploads/TN09.pdf

Studies have their limitations but they do suggest that storage matters.

[swirler]

The wine industry is rather deceitful when it comes to transport and storage. They have a lot to lose if forced to store and transport properly. I was approached by a guy with heat damage technology for wine bottles years ago and he throught he was on his way to millions. I said I felt there would be zero interest and I think there was- I must check in with him on this.

I'd be happy to present wines I've cellared versus the same wines via a secondary market purchase. Time and time again I've seen the results and they are startling with the better Aussie wines. Direct Chateau versus secondary market I have a lot of exposure to as well- doing one next week Jadot is sending the tasting wines to us though we have had to source dinner wines locally. In Piedmont it's becoming a real concern with producers who have been shocked by poor European storage and have stared their 10th anniversary releases to counter their concerns for their brand reputations- I've had Voerzio, Sandrone and Massolino with the Sandrone in direct comparison to a secondary market bottle.

If you've seen the difference it becomes obsessive . I was in ADL a few weeks ago and drove between real estate appointments to get to rockfords and pick up my allocation. Your wine can get off to a really bad start with the summertime logistics .

Anecdotal evidence.

My quotes are not producers/distributors/sales. They are from academics and the world's top, independent journalists. They have no reason to support dodgy practices. They are consumers, too.

I've said enough now......

[sparky]

An episode of Columbo many years ago suggested that for wine to "go off" it needed to reached a temp of 42 degrees centigrade for 20 minutes (that is the wine temp inside the bottle). I'm not sure whether that is accurate (no doubt there are a few wine scientists on the forum who could elucidate).

I think we need to see an episode of CSI on the same topic to back the validity of that up... Any thoughts on which location would provide the most robust answer?

[JamieBahrain]

Swirler

What you've quoted looks pretty anecdotal to me and in some cases lacks CDF and the wine journos don't seem to be pursuing any myth busting science.

Anyways, I should approach my wine storage facility and see if they'll sponsor a big taste off- wines stored with them for 15 years + and since release versus secondary market purchases.

[Michael McNally]

An episode of Columbo many years ago suggested that for wine to "go off" it needed to reached a temp of 42 degrees centigrade for 20 minutes (that is the wine temp inside the bottle). I'm not sure whether that is accurate (no doubt there are a few wine scientists on the forum who could elucidate).

I think we need to see an episode of CSI on the same topic to back the validity of that up... Any thoughts on which location would provide the most robust answer?

CSI Napa? I was also amazed that the previous posters let the Colombo reference sail through to the keeper!

The Episode of Magnum P.I. set in Argentina showed that wine went off after exposure to temperatures higher than 40.5 degrees C for more than 11 seconds. Higgins was quite the authority on it. This was contradicted however by Kit in Knight Rider in the landmark French Sommelier episode.

It is so hard to get one's facts from popular culture these days.

Cheers

Michael

[swirler]

University of California, Davis? Only the most important university in the world in wine terms. Much of the foundations of New World winemaking come from there. The modern Old World, too.

Your 'experiment' would add a few data points only and, being sponsored by a business with hugely vested interests, would have as much credibility as an episode of a Seventies US detective series

[odyssey]

Certainly our grandparents and parents stored wine at a constant 25 degrees and kept it going for a decade or two. The wines weren't perfect but they could still usually be enjoyed. Typically they had more stewed fruit flavours than those cellared at cooler temperatures.

One of the first documents I read when learning about the effect of heat on wine was the following:

http://www.wineperspective.com/STORAGE% ... 0AGING.htm

Unfortunately it doesn't go into full detail about its principles and assumptions so it's arguably also "anecdotal" but I still find the document very interesting. To a layman with only high school chemistry knowledge it seems logical that it's not only the rate of reactions but also the types of reactions will be different at 25 degrees than at 14 degrees.

[Bobthebuilder]

I like to think (with absolutely no scientific basis or evidence, just the vibe ) that wine should store considerably well at similar temperatures to what the wine was made under.

[redstuff]

Certainly our grandparents and parents stored wine at a constant 25 degrees and kept it going for a decade or two. The wines weren't perfect but they could still usually be enjoyed. Typically they had more stewed fruit flavours than those cellared at cooler temperatures.

One of the first documents I read when learning about the effect of heat on wine was the following:

http://www.wineperspective.com/STORAGE% ... 0AGING.htm

Unfortunately it doesn't go into full detail about its principles and assumptions so it's arguably also "anecdotal" but I still find the document very interesting. To a layman with only high school chemistry knowledge it seems logical that it's not only the rate of reactions but also the types of reactions will be different at 25 degrees than at 14 degrees.

I love the last sentence on that site : "Red wine can be poured in a glass and allowed to slowly warm before consumption or put in a microwave oven for 15-20 seconds."

[odyssey]

I wouldn't be too shocked... some here with some level of experience (Gary Walsh, Red Bigot, Bick) have indicated they've used it as a way to raise the temperature of a very cold glass of wine, although 15-20 seems like an awful lot...):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1746&hilit=microwave
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4710&hilit=microwave
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10419&hilit=microwave

Not saying that I would do it (at least, not to anything really good/expensive!), but it's certainly not unheard of...

[winetastic]

15-20sec with the whole bottle in the microwave does the trick on a cold day.

[swirler]

Certainly our grandparents and parents stored wine at a constant 25 degrees and kept it going for a decade or two. The wines weren't perfect but they could still usually be enjoyed. Typically they had more stewed fruit flavours than those cellared at cooler temperatures.

One of the first documents I read when learning about the effect of heat on wine was the following:

http://www.wineperspective.com/STORAGE% ... 0AGING.htm

Unfortunately it doesn't go into full detail about its principles and assumptions so it's arguably also "anecdotal" but I still find the document very interesting. To a layman with only high school chemistry knowledge it seems logical that it's not only the rate of reactions but also the types of reactions will be different at 25 degrees than at 14 degrees.

I Agree with everything you say about the (missing) assumptions.But most people seem to agree that 25'c is rather high, especially over an extended period.

As far as microwaving wine, I've never been in such a hurry that I would consider anything as drastic as that. Talk about cooking a wine Not saying it does, but....

[JamieBahrain]

Your 'experiment' would add a few data points only and, being sponsored by a business with hugely vested interests, would have as much credibility as an episode of a Seventies US detective series

The sponsorship would be someone buying the secondary market wines and pitting them against wines cellared in a controlled environment since release. I don't see your issues in credibility. And your scientific and statistical analysis insistence doesn't serve collectors or drinkers from where I sit

It's an understandably prickly subject. A lot of premium wine in Australia is not stored well. Passive Aussie cellars seem warmer than claimed too and the collectors understandably defensive of their investment. There's also the limited access Australian drinkers have to vintage European wine due cost and distribution. Exposure would give a wider appreciation of why it is important to cellar wine properly as there is so much vintage European wine available stored properly versus the wine that hasn't. So provenance is a elemental consideration abroad.

Yes, statistically there may be no credibility, but there are many Aussie wines I know well and I have enjoyed them so much I've spent the money on storing them in a controlled environment for 20 years. It's CDF they show better than passive cellared and ullaged examples. Do they present better than wines cellared at 17 degrees? Or 20 degrees ? That would be a painfully drawn out argument.

I'm confident the general results would be dramatic. The only vagaries will come with cork taint and perhaps palates drawn to overly tertiary development. I'd be happy to put some of my wines up though not in too generous numbers- they are too precious, they've been stored perfectly.

[dave vino]

Your 'experiment' would add a few data points only and, being sponsored by a business with hugely vested interests, would have as much credibility as an episode of a Seventies US detective series

I'm confident the general results would be dramatic. The only vagaries will come with cork taint and perhaps palates drawn to overly tertiary development. I'd be happy to put some of my wines up though not in too generous numbers- they are too precious, they've been stored perfectly.

Happy to help out in the name of science as always

I just got a 98 Cyril from Auction that I'd be willing to contribute as a 'random provenance' example and say a 96 Rockford Cab Sav (if you have them)

Let's do it!!

[swirler]

What? Of course they would like to show that their 'perfect cellaring conditions' are better than 'non ideal' conditions.

And as for statistics not serving the debate? I think you need to move seats. Data is the foundation of science. Otherwise it's just down to who can shout the loudest.