Rockford overated?

Rockhard · Post by **Rockhard** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:33 pm

G'day,

If you happened to be a Stonewailer then it's OK to pay CD's prices. The silly prices($80+) on retail and auctions ain't worth it. For the same dosh, I rather have 2 bottles of Turkey Flat which is very similar.

Anybody agreed???

Warm · Post by **Warm** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:40 pm

The Rockford wines themselves are not over rated. But the prices often paid at auction for the wines are silly. You will get very little argument on that, from either Rockford itself or from Rockford drinkers. But that is nothing to do with the quality of the wines, nor of the prices that Rockford sell them for, both of which are excellent.

Rockford CD prices are not so far removed from Turkey Flat CD prices.

Warm.

Paul T · Post by **Paul T** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:43 pm

I'm glad to be a Stonewaller but i'll take BP over most other shiraz's..it's a personal taste but i love the elegance and savoury nuances i find in BP but not in many other Barossa shiraz...i dont buy extra's at auction..the prices are indeed silly.It's all personal taste really..if you prefer Turkey Flat then buy that..

Cheers

Paul

markg · Post by **markg** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:00 am

Personally I prefer Rockford to Turkey Flat but I still love Turkey Flat.

Most times I pay Cellar door prices, but sometimes (for personal favorite vintages) I am happy to pay more (ie. 1998 and 1996).

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:29 am

I believe the prices for the Basket Press and Black Shiraz achieved at auctions are justified... not that I have ever bought any.

However, I beleive the prices for the SVS wines are way too high but this is because they are based on rarity and not quality... not that I have ever sold any.

Adair

Mike Hawkins · Post by **Mike Hawkins** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:41 am

I agree wholeheartedly with Adair.

Possibly the hyped vintages of BP go for a little too much (eg 98), but a wine like the 99 is well and truly worth it at about $70, it is outstanding.

When you compare the price of BP to wines like Stonewell, Torbreck, Meshach et al, I dont think auction prices are outageous at all.

That having been said, I must admit I only pay the mail order price.

Gavin Trott · Post by **Gavin Trott** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:27 am

Mike Hawkins wrote:I agree wholeheartedly with Adair.

Possibly the hyped vintages of BP go for a little too much (eg 98), but a wine like the 99 is well and truly worth it at about $70, it is outstanding.

When you compare the price of BP to wines like Stonewell, Torbreck, Meshach et al, I dont think auction prices are outageous at all.

That having been said, I must admit I only pay the mail order price.

being a retailer I've not tried to join the mailing list (or any other mailing list - conflict of interest) hence I buy for myself and auswine at secondary prices.

Better vintages are worth it, picked up for my cellar some 1998 Wine Makers Reserve (from cellar door) but the 1999 at secondary prices, worth every cent ... such a classy wine! Prefer it to the 1998.

These wines are not overpriced against their qulaity peers.

Neutral · Post by **Neutral** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:58 pm

Tried both the BP and T.Flat 2001 and prefered the TF anytime.
The BP was leaner with dusty drying tannins and finishes short. The TF was symetrical in form, exceptionally well balanced with layers of flavours and a lenghty finish.

michel · Post by **michel** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:13 pm

Neutral wrote:Tried both the BP and T.Flat 2001 and prefered the TF anytime.
The BP was leaner with dusty drying tannins and finishes short. The TF was symetrical in form, exceptionally well balanced with layers of flavours and a lenghty finish.

All about preferences.
I didnt buy the 2001 TF as I found it had to much alcohol warmth and prune fruit for my liking and would reckon the BP 2001 will be the better wine in another 8-10 years.
regards
michel

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:21 pm

Neutral wrote:Tried both the BP and T.Flat 2001 and prefered the TF anytime.
The BP was leaner with dusty drying tannins and finishes short. The TF was symetrical in form, exceptionally well balanced with layers of flavours and a lenghty finish.

The 01 TF is a heavy dead fruited wine. The 01 Rockford is not.

Mike Hawkins · Post by **Mike Hawkins** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:27 pm

I've bought both wines in most vintages, and I have never had a TF that had a longer finish than the RBP.

Dont get me wrong, I love both of them. I just think the RBP is a much better wine.

Newbie · Post by **Newbie** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:37 pm

What is dead fruits? Overcooked?

TORB · Post by **TORB** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:59 am

One of the problems with people making comments as a "guest" is we have no idea about thier palates because they could be one of a number of people. I totally disagree with the dead fruit comment on the 01 TF. Here is my TN

Turkey Flat 2001 Shiraz SA2003 will be released in mid July and will sell for $33. A richer more intense wine than the 2000, it shows dark fruit and dusty oak on the nose. There two standout out features to this wine, (about as obvious as canine testicles.) The first is the pure deep fruit which expresses itself as sweet raspberry (but not sickly sweet) thatÃƒâ€šÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s well contrasted to the blackcurrant and dark chocolate flavours. The second is the excellent rock solid structure from a combination of ample weight fruit and smooth dusty tannins that combine to form a wine with sophisticated well developed complexity thatÃƒâ€šÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s terrific now but will only get better as it matures. Rated as Highly Recommended with *** for value.

Here is the other one in question.

Rockford 2001 Basket Press Shiraz sells for $43 at CD. Purple in colour, the hue is vibrant. The bouquet is youthful, perfumed and shows very ripe fruit. The palate is seduced by cunningly deceptive, silky tannins that donÃƒâ€šÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t seem like they are there, but just like Sir Edmond Hillary, they take a while to climb to the summit. Squeaky clean with a great mouth feel, the pure fruit, which is the product of a hot year, is very ripe but savoury. Ample in weight, the consistency is soft and the complexity harmonious, but do not let that fool you, the structure is solid. This wine will not be as long lived as many under this label and should peak about 2010. Rated as Excellent with **** for Value.

Pelican · Post by **Pelican** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:13 pm

1. To get back to the original question of this post - no , Rockford is not overrated - probably the best balanced wines in the Barossa. For me they walk a nice line between the lovely fruit the barossa produces but not OTT either.

2. If you are not on the Mailing List , post a letter and get on it.

3. I probably have a slightly different palate to TORB but I must say his website and other writings are second to none as far as honesty and integrity go.

also a TN for good measure -

1994 Rockford Home Block Cabernet Sauvignon ( Magnum ) : good now but will keep for another 5 years easy if well cellared. Lovely integrated oak. A pleasure to drink. So to anyone with just one of these - drink in the next few years when an opportune time arises but no need to panic.

Adair · Post by **Adair** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:49 pm

Although this post only has a 1% relevance to this thread, it still has a 1% relevance...

Have a guess where this ridiculously cute picture was taken last weekend...

... Rockford to baby Labradors!!!

sanjay · Post by **sanjay** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:00 am

Hi,
I am not entering into this debate. but going back on the original part of the thread I did find Rockford to be quite good at CD prices. At some of the exhorbitantly charged prices, I would seek other wine to drink. Turkey flat, however, hasn't got that cult image, as yet (thank goodness).

The 2001 Turkey flat shiraz is a fantastic wine. I opened a bottle last weekend and found the intensity of fruit and the balance was extraordinary. Its NOT the extremely BIG barossa shiraz with raw fruit and huge tannin structure (which I personally am not fond of). Its in a must buy categeory.

Sanjay

Gavin Trott · Post by **Gavin Trott** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:07 pm

Sorry it took me so long to intercede here, been away, trying to have a life outside the forum! :lol:

We are here to discuss wine, let's stick to that. I have removed all posts that refer to people and personalities and not wine.

I haven't locked it because any discussion of Rockfords Wines is well worth having, but let's all stick to wine please.

BA · Post by BA » Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:07 pm

Thanks Gavin. A very sensible solution.

I understands Rockhard's original post and I find I have to agree totally. At cellar door prices, I think the Rockford just shades the TF (and slightly more expensive, this is as things should be), and couldn't imagine not buying both these great wines in a good year. For $80, I'll take one of each every time, but $80 for one is starting to stretch things a bit.

The real issue, I find, is the insanity of the secondary market for any of the increasingly popular "Cult wines". To use an example, I used to be on the mailing list and be a regular buyer of Greenock Creek also, but not being good at feeding frenzies, this one has got away on me. Once upon a time, the Creek Block was much cheaper than the BP, no longer the case. I hope Turkey Flat never becomes as popular, and will still be accessible to those who have enjoyed it over the years. This is the exact reason why Rockford created the Stonewall concept - to enable those who enjoy actually drinking good wines to continue to do so. The only flaw in their logic is how to allow a young wine drinker to find the joys of BP like I did a decade ago. Sadly, I think the days of enjoying relatively unknown gems at reasonable prices may be numbered.

I have no idea about how to stop the insanity of the auction market, and I suspect that short of legislating against foreign wine writers, nothing is possible.

cheers
BA

George Krashos · Post by **George Krashos** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:33 pm

BA wrote:The only flaw in their logic is how to allow a young wine drinker to find the joys of BP like I did a decade ago. Sadly, I think the days of enjoying relatively unknown gems at reasonable prices may be numbered.

BA

I'm not sure whether BA is saying that BP is now out of the price range of young wine drinkers, or that it isn't accessible to young wine drinkers.

If it's the first, then expecting the wine to cost the same as it did 10 years ago is a tad unreasonable - when I first started buying wine with the '90 vintage I bought BP, Old Block and E&E all for $19.95 retail. BP is now cheaper than both - quoting CD prices, of course. And quality will never remain a 'secret' for long - it's just the nature of the beast.

As for accessibility, the salient fact about Rockford is that if you take the time to go to the cellar door (granted, for non-SA dwelling people - difficult) and have good timing (March) then you will always get to try and purchase BP. I can't see how the logic is flawed in any way, except for residents of other states and territories of Australia. If you make the effort to get to the cellar door, you will get to try their wines.

We often get looks of amazement and disbelief when we tell people we head down to the Barossa every 6-8 weeks. You'd think we were telling them we drive to Darwin and back. An hour in the car to have a chat at cellar door, drink nice wines, introduce friends and family to our favourite wineries, is as easy as can be in our humble opinions.

But I do feel for those who don't live in Adelaide. But then again, I'd love to be able to take a drive to the Yarra Valley, Heathcote, Gippsland, Margarte River, Hunter Valley or a host of other wine regions around Australia - but I can't and so I have to live with it. Or plan a trip to do so - one day.

-- George Krashos

Sr. Chooch · Post by **Sr. Chooch** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:06 am

I had a 98 Basket press the other day and it was brilliant. Its just now going into the phase of secondary aromas and flavors. This is great wine from a great winery. Its amazing that ROckfor can produce so much wine and still get the quality right. Does anyone know how much they produce?

JamieBahrain · Post by **JamieBahrain** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:49 am

I think that in terms of dollar value, Rockford's is about right. With the exceptional vintages being undervalued at CD.

You probably need to go past a direct dollar versus perceived quality comparison; looking at what's achieved by the winery in terms of the spirit of the place, tradition and uniqueness. Here, it is perhaps only Wendouree( with no Cellar Door ), that comes close.

Paul T · Post by **Paul T** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:41 am

Well young people can still get on the list..i told a young guy at work about Rockfords..he took his girlfriend to SA for a week, dropped by Rockfords..tried the wines and got on so well with the crew there he was put on the mailing list.He came back with some 96 Hoffman SVS. I think the thing about BP etc are they are still affordable before they get to the secondary market. The SVS wines at auction are just silly..i've seen them go for over $180 at Langtons..the BP prices a bit more realistic but still not cheap. The mailing list is they way to go.

Cheers

Paul

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:08 pm

I really like the wines although I think that it's fair to say that they are not quite what they used to be. The blends have been stretched a bit with the SVS wines perhaps ? The last two BP shiraz have been a little dissapointing compared with passed efforts. I still like, buy and drink the wines but I think the fruit must be going elsewhere these days. If the 2002 is not an absolute cracker then I'm going to be concerned. :cry:

I'm also going to miss the Vine Vale Riesling

Guest

TORB · Post by **TORB** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:12 pm

Guest wrote:I really like the wines although I think that it's fair to say that they are not quite what they used to be. The blends have been stretched a bit with the SVS wines perhaps ? The last two BP Shiraz have been a little dissapointing compared with passed efforts. I still like, buy and drink the wines but I think the fruit must be going elsewhere these days. If the 2002 is not an absolute cracker then I'm going to be concerned.

I'm also going to miss the Vine Vale Riesling

Guest

Hi Guest,

The 2000 was a pretty tough vintage and 2001 was the hottest on record, so in some ways it is not surprising the last two vintages were not as good as say 98 and 99. Agree that 02 should be an improvement or there will be concern.

According to the info provided when I was there, the SVS is a very small quantity in comparison to the whole BP volume and essentially it is not needed to boost the BP. (Or words to that effect.)

Mike Hawkins · Post by **Mike Hawkins** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:32 am

Ric,

I was told there was only (roughly) 600 bottles of each 98 SVS made, hence it shouldn't make too much difference to the BP quality. Comparing the SVS's and the 98 BP, it is obvious all wines are outstanding - there is no quality dimunition.

Mike

Peggy Babcock · Post by **Peggy Babcock** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:33 pm

What are the qualities that make a "great" Basket Press Shiraz?

In my experience the different releases of this wine have behaved very differently during the the first twelve months after release. I remember Chris Ringland giving his thoughts on this at a Stonewaller dinner recently. In his opinion the vintages of Basket Press that have remained the most closed and reticent for longest have eventually evolved into the classics. He cited the 1991, 1995, 1999 and 2001. His feeling was that the wines that showed everything and had that voluptuous opulence within a few weeks of bottling were the ones that he expected less of in the long term. Here he cited the 1990 and the 1998.

I believe that the fact that the wines close up for at least six months after release has led Rockford to delay the release of the Basket Press in the Cellar Door until the following March. I know that restaurants that receive supply of Rockford also receive a letter from the winery asking them to delay listing the wine for as long as possible, due to the "closed up" nature of the wine. It seems a little unfair to compare the wine with others during this period. We should trust the pedigree of the wine: has there ever been a release of Basket Press that has really disappointed? Even those from the most difficult years have a lot to say. Any one seen the 1989 recently? The 2000 is an incredibly successful wine from a challenging vintage.

My six-pack of the 2001 is going to the back of my stash. In the meantime I'm going to purchase another couple of cases of the 1999 Moppa Springs which is apparently nearing its end at the winery.

JamieBahrain · Post by **JamieBahrain** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:58 pm

Thanks Peggy.

Explains my frustration recently, vigorously double decanting an 01 Basket Press on the balcony of the Barossa Novotel, hoping for the wine to open and reveal something!

Despite the wine bruising I gave it, the 01 BP was drinking nicely by bottle's end!

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:16 am

I hosted a corporate tasting during the week where our aperitif was 1988 disgorged Rockford Black Shiraz. Frankly, a wine that rare, that good can sell for any price and $150 a throw is not out of order. I can imagine in another decade, what many other vintages of Black Shiraz will be worth. So, I think for long term, they are worth the high prices the market sets. It is bench mark sprakling red.
The Basket Press is another matter and one of many very good Barossa Shiraz's. It is not the best, not the most expensive, not the most long lived or the most iconic, but it has a strong loyal following. The second hand market price is justified on supply and demand at the very least.

markg · Post by **markg** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:23 pm

Gary wrote:I hosted a corporate tasting during the week where our aperitif was 1988 disgorged Rockford Black Shiraz. Frankly, a wine that rare, that good can sell for any price and $150 a throw is not out of order. I can imagine in another decade, what many other vintages of Black Shiraz will be worth. So, I think for long term, they are worth the high prices the market sets. It is bench mark sprakling red.
The Basket Press is another matter and one of many very good Barossa Shiraz's. It is not the best, not the most expensive, not the most long lived or the most iconic, but it has a strong loyal following. The second hand market price is justified on supply and demand at the very least.

1988 or 1998 ?

guest (Irregular) · Post by **guest (Irregular)** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:31 pm

In the US at present, FWIW, bought a 93 with me to have with friends and it was SENSATIONAL.

Mark, tried to contact you in Dublin without success, figured you must have been blind somewhere!! You would have enjoyed the Mt Mary Pinot too, my hosts certainly did

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